Brazilian Consumer Protection Agency question Netflix Password Sharing scheme.

[Rocky Arbigaus]

The State of Parana Consumer Protection Agency, in Brazil, has notified Netflix about its Password Sharing charges.
The Agency says this practice goes against the Consumer Defense Code. The company has 20 days to explain itself.

 

Quotes

Quote

"The company's advertising material, which is even available on its website, brings phrases like "watch Anywhere", which misleads the consumer, as he imagines that the profiles can be used anywhere", said Claudia Silvano , coordinator of Procon-PR.

 

Article Translation

Quote

 

Procon-PR notifies Netflix over additional charges for password sharing According to the agency, the measure may violate the Consumer Protection Code. The platform has a 20-day deadline to provide clarifications.

On Friday (26), Procon-PR (Consumer Protection Agency of Paraná) notified Netflix regarding the charges for password sharing. According to the agency, the company did not make it clear how they will differentiate between legitimate sharing among users on different devices.

On Tuesday (23), the company announced that it will charge an additional fee of R$ 12.90 per month for users who share the platform with people outside their household.

According to Procon, this measure may violate the Consumer Protection Code.

"The company's advertising material, which is also available on its website, includes phrases like 'watch anywhere you want,' which misleads the consumer because they believe that profiles can be used anywhere," said Claudia Silvano, coordinator of Procon-PR.

The platform has a 20-day deadline to provide information to the agency. g1 (a Brazilian news outlet) is attempting to contact Netflix.

According to Procon, if the service can be accessed through mobile devices, the company cannot restrict access solely to the household.

 

Personal view
Brazil has a good amount of regulatory agencies and rules to prevent companies from abusing the system.
Personally, considering I pay extra for a service so I can have multiple profiles should be enough to cover things like people who are not in the same household. And again, it would make sense on a cable service, where you need a decocer and infrastructure, but it does not make any sense on a streaming platform where anyone with a mobile device can use it.
 

Sources

https://g1.globo.com/pr/parana/noticia/2023/05/26/procon-pr-notifica-netflix-por-cobranca-adicional-em-compartilhamento-de-senhas.ghtml

[manikyath]

12 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

watch anywhere you want

is notably different from

12 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

sharing among users

 

i feel like the consumer protection agency will have difficulty defending this.. or they just use their weight and try to force netflix's hand.. although that might not turn out the way the agency expects.

[igormp]

13 minutes ago, manikyath said:

is notably different from

 

i feel like the consumer protection agency will have difficulty defending this.. or they just use their weight and try to force netflix's hand.. although that might not turn out the way the agency expects.

They are not forcing anything, they're asking netflix to explain how they can differentiate between an actual user logging into their accounts from different places to different users sharing their account.

Failing to explain so in 20 days may lead to problems to netflix.

[starsmine]

2 minutes ago, igormp said:

They are not forcing anything, they're asking netflix to explain how they can differentiate between an actual user logging into their accounts from different places to different users sharing their account.

Failing to explain so in 20 days may lead to problems to netflix.

You home base your device is how netflix is doing it.

If you have TWO houses (AKA a tv you cant home base)... well. yea.

[igormp]

9 minutes ago, starsmine said:

If you have TWO houses (AKA a tv you cant home base)... well. yea.

Which is a valid case, along with going to a hotel and logging into your account there.

 

Netflix has to properly explain how they'll deal with those edge cases without causing any issues to those users. otherwise they'll likely get fined or have to give up on this idea here in Brazil.

 

If they do manage to properly explain how this won't be an issue, then I don't think there'll be any further repercusion.

[manikyath]

1 hour ago, igormp said:

They are not forcing anything, they're asking netflix to explain how they can differentiate between an actual user logging into their accounts from different places to different users sharing their account.

Failing to explain so in 20 days may lead to problems to netflix.

that's sort of like saying a failed MOT doesnt force anything, but not fixing your car may lead to problems...

 

also.. it might just be me, but i thought that "only sharing within one household" is pretty darn easy to understand.

[igormp]

18 minutes ago, manikyath said:

that's sort of like saying a failed MOT doesnt force anything, but not fixing your car may lead to problems...

I have no idea what a MOT is nor understood your analogy.

 

15 minutes ago, manikyath said:

"only sharing within one household"

In their own email that they sent to us here they mentioned that it should still be possible to use it in any other home you may have, as well as hotels and whatnot, so it's just a matter of them explaining how this will work.

[manikyath]

3 minutes ago, igormp said:

I have no idea what a MOT is nor understood your analogy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test

 

[igormp]

5 minutes ago, manikyath said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test

 

I see. In this case the analogy doesn't quite fit because the government is asking if there's something to fix to begin with, not claiming that there's something wrong.

[SansVarnic]

@Rocky Arbigaus please take a moment and update your topic to include your own opinion as required by the guidelines.

Additionally please place your translation quotes in quote boxes.

 

Thank you

[rodrifo]

Apparently they give you a temporary code for use when traveling. Except it only work for 7 days at which point you have to go back to your home wifi and log in again.

 

So if you're a pilot, executive, offshore worker, trucker or something along those lines and spend more than 7 days away from your home wifi you're just going to get blocked?

 

I foresee Netflix getting fined in Brazil. The government is known for blocking companies who don't follow local consumer laws, and I don't even see them going for their website, but their payment processing. It would make Netflix inaccessible to many Brazilians who would have to pay for it in other currencies.

 

Btw, that same agency forced apple and Samsung to create websites exclusively for people who buy their phones but don't get a charger, so they can request one free of charge if needed. Also they got a huge fine.

[Brooksie359]

20 hours ago, manikyath said:

that's sort of like saying a failed MOT doesnt force anything, but not fixing your car may lead to problems...

 

also.. it might just be me, but i thought that "only sharing within one household" is pretty darn easy to understand.

Yes that is easy to understand but it is also contradictory to what they advertised. Watch anywhere you want is not longer valid unless they said "watch anywhere you want so long as they are in the same house"

[manikyath]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yes that is easy to understand but it is also contradictory to what they advertised. Watch anywhere you want is not longer valid unless they said "watch anywhere you want so long as they are in the same house"

they dont have to be in the same house, they have to be part of the same household. the limits they're implementing (as far as i'm aware) dont block you from taking your phone to work, and watching netflix at work.

[Rocky Arbigaus]

2 hours ago, manikyath said:

they dont have to be in the same house, they have to be part of the same household. the limits they're implementing (as far as i'm aware) dont block you from taking your phone to work, and watching netflix at work.

But how do you define household and how do you enforce it, that is the question. 
If you drive a truck, and you have your family home, but you also spend weeks out, are you still the same household? Or if your kid goes to college, and he/she lives in a dorm, does that make them not the same household? What about people who work on a petrol platform, and they will be out of home for months (sometimes 6 months), are they not in the same household as their family?

Also, if I pay for a service streaming that gives me 4 profiles for 4 different people who also advertise itself as "watch it anywhere" does it really matters if people are in the same physical home?

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

But how do you define household and how do you enforce it, that is the question. 

if we have to cater to every possible exception in marketing materials, an 800 page EULA isnt gonna cut it.

 

but since you ask:

2 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

If you drive a truck, and you have your family home, but you also spend weeks out, are you still the same household?

iirc they have a 'treshold' set for how much of the time the specific device has to be at the home, to be considered "part of the household"

2 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

Or if your kid goes to college, and he/she lives in a dorm, does that make them not the same household?

when the kid's at the dorm - technically no. again wether that implies the requirement of a separate netflix account comes down to before mentioned treshold.. having that said - this new change seems to imply that account sharing for an entire dorm may be okay(?) because a dorm could be seen as a household?

4 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

What about people who work on a petrol platform, and they will be out of home for months (sometimes 6 months), are they not in the same household as their family?

when they're out on the drill platform - no, they're not part of the household. this is also a fairly moot point, because connectivity isnt that great out on drill stations last time i encountered the topic. (it's sort of implied you're there to work. you get your time off when you're ashore.)

6 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

Also, if I pay for a service streaming that gives me 4 profiles for 4 different people who also advertise itself as "watch it anywhere" does it really matters if people are in the same physical home?

the idea is that not everyone in the household might have the same preferences, that's why your TV asks you which profile you want to use every time you open the netflix app. in fact - our local belgian netflix competitor (insert laughter here) literally asks "who is watching?". it's not meant to be separate profiles for separate devices, it's meant to be profiles with different preferences, such as:

- dad's profile, who is big on documentaries

- mom's murder drama profile

- kid's shows profile, with parental control so that no murder drama appears for kiddo's.

- teen's profile who literally just re-watches chernobyl endlessly.

 

these 4 profiles can then be accessed "anywhere" there's a screen: the TV, the computer, the tablet, even if the tablet goes along to grandma for the day.

*but*... grandma's tablet isnt part of your household, so grandma's tablet does not get your netflix.

 

if they were truly confused about what "anywhere" meant - shouldnt they then not also ask clarification if they need internet to watch netflix? because i sure as hell cant watch netflix out in the woods.

[Spotty]

13 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

If you drive a truck, and you have your family home, but you also spend weeks out, are you still the same household?

You can continue to stream to your mobile devices for 31 days away from the home connection. It's not an issue if you're away from home for a few days or weeks.

 

13 minutes ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

Or if your kid goes to college, and he/she lives in a dorm, does that make them not the same household?

If your child moves out of the home and lives somewhere else they are no longer part of the household. They would need their own Netflix account if they want to continue using it. People should not expect their parents to pay for their netflix forever. If they're living somewhere else for 10 months of the year then spend the holidays visiting their family or decide to move back in with their parents after they finish college then they could just cancel their Netflix subscription while they are staying at their parents place if they don't need their own account.

[Brooksie359]

6 hours ago, manikyath said:

if we have to cater to every possible exception in marketing materials, an 800 page EULA isnt gonna cut it.

 

but since you ask:

iirc they have a 'treshold' set for how much of the time the specific device has to be at the home, to be considered "part of the household"

when the kid's at the dorm - technically no. again wether that implies the requirement of a separate netflix account comes down to before mentioned treshold.. having that said - this new change seems to imply that account sharing for an entire dorm may be okay(?) because a dorm could be seen as a household?

when they're out on the drill platform - no, they're not part of the household. this is also a fairly moot point, because connectivity isnt that great out on drill stations last time i encountered the topic. (it's sort of implied you're there to work. you get your time off when you're ashore.)

the idea is that not everyone in the household might have the same preferences, that's why your TV asks you which profile you want to use every time you open the netflix app. in fact - our local belgian netflix competitor (insert laughter here) literally asks "who is watching?". it's not meant to be separate profiles for separate devices, it's meant to be profiles with different preferences, such as:

- dad's profile, who is big on documentaries

- mom's murder drama profile

- kid's shows profile, with parental control so that no murder drama appears for kiddo's.

- teen's profile who literally just re-watches chernobyl endlessly.

 

these 4 profiles can then be accessed "anywhere" there's a screen: the TV, the computer, the tablet, even if the tablet goes along to grandma for the day.

*but*... grandma's tablet isnt part of your household, so grandma's tablet does not get your netflix.

 

if they were truly confused about what "anywhere" meant - shouldnt they then not also ask clarification if they need internet to watch netflix? because i sure as hell cant watch netflix out in the woods.

You have to not state something that isn't true in your advertising. Them saying you can watch wherever you want is very misleading based on their new policies. They either need to change advertising or change the restrictions. It's wild when people try and defend advertising that is clearly misleading or no longer true. I am fine with Netflix shooting itself in the foot with a new restriction like this but if they are going to do that then they need to advertise it properly and tell people clearly what you are getting. 

[starsmine]

34 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

You have to not state something that isn't true in your advertising. Them saying you can watch wherever you want is very misleading based on their new policies. They either need to change advertising or change the restrictions. It's wild when people try and defend advertising that is clearly misleading or no longer true. I am fine with Netflix shooting itself in the foot with a new restriction like this but if they are going to do that then they need to advertise it properly and tell people clearly what you are getting. 

its not misleading to say you can watch anywhere. You CAN. You can reregister a home base for Netflix, what you cant do is have two home Bases. 

You can go to grandma for a few weeks, you can travel to iceland on your vacation and hook up your iPad to the TV in the hotel (if you are logging into the hotel's smart TV, you are insane), just so long as during regular periods your device touches home base. 

[manikyath]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Them saying you can watch wherever you want is very misleading based on their new policies.

you forced me to do this...

 

I cannot watch this show on my toilet paper, this is simply unacceptable.

 

it's not because you may interpret a 2 word tagline as a blanket statement for their entire service without limits, that the company then needs to make their front page an 800 page disclaimer. the point of "watch anywhere" is that it is brief and to the point: "this service does not lock you to a settop box". there's plenty of text around that tagline to make it clear what it is and is not.

 

it is the equivalent of "more fanta less serious", would you then also call that false marketing if you carried a crate of fanta into a business meeting, and it -in fact- did not become a rave party?

 

you are the sort of person why my microwave warns me not to put living creatures in the microwave.

[igormp]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

It's wild when people try and defend advertising that is clearly misleading or no longer true.

The amount of people that like to defend companies that go against their own consumers in this forum is wild.

[starsmine]

3 minutes ago, igormp said:

The amount of people that like to defend companies that go against their own consumers in this forum is wild.

No one is doing that here.
If you are going to be mad about something, you still have to be correct about what you are mad about. 

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

 It's wild when people try and defend advertising that is clearly misleading or no longer true.

No one is doing that here. 
People are not defending the advertising, people are calling you out for intentionally misleading yourself. 

[igormp]

6 minutes ago, starsmine said:

No one is doing that here.

I don't believe I have pointed out any fingers.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

its not misleading to say you can watch anywhere. You CAN. You can reregister a home base for Netflix, what you cant do is have two home Bases. 

You can go to grandma for a few weeks, you can travel to iceland on your vacation and hook up your iPad to the TV in the hotel (if you are logging into the hotel's smart TV, you are insane), just so long as during regular periods your device touches home base. 

You clearly don't understand the issue. Based on their advertising it would lead a reasonable person to think they would be able to watch anywhere they go by simply signing in someplace other than their house but that isn't the case you need to bring a mobile device and jump through a bunch of hoops to get it to work. If you want to actively hamper people's ability to watch netflix on the go then you can't advertise like you aren't doing that. I love it how you can act like this isn't an issue when there are already goverment consumer protection agencies out there looking into this. So I guess these people who do this stuff for a living are wrong and you are right?

[Brooksie359]

21 minutes ago, starsmine said:

No one is doing that here.
If you are going to be mad about something, you still have to be correct about what you are mad about. 

No one is doing that here. 
People are not defending the advertising, people are calling you out for intentionally misleading yourself. 

Yep because I am the one who doesn't understand what is going on but you do. I'm sorry but there is clearly an issue with their advertising otherwise consumer protection agencies wouldn't be looking into this. 

[dalekphalm]

I think one aspect of this discussion is rather straight forward: "What constitutes a household?"

 

I would have thought the answer obvious - your legal primary residence is your household. So, if your kid moves out for college, and moves into his own apartment. His legal residence would become his new apartment. If he moves into a dorm room for 8 months of the year - that get's a bit more questionable, but legally the kid can probably still use his parents address as his legal residence.

 

How it works in practice? The subscriber chooses a home location. Anyone who lives there would quality to be able to use the service. Even if those people go outside the home.

 

I can understand both sides of this argument, but I also definitely recognize Netflix's right to enforce password sharing policies. IMO it doesn't really affect me in any negative ways. Most people who will be negatively hit by this are either in very niche situations (eg: Field workers who work on site for weeks or months, truckers, etc). Your everyday average person would only be affected if they're using another household's Netflix account.

 

I'll be curious to see what the Brazilian agency determines from this inquiry. So far, no fines or judgements have been levied, as far as I can tell. If this truly is anti-consumer, I expect the EU to rattle it's sabers.