Retro PC Gaming Solutions Discussion

[Vishera]

Hallooo there!

In recent months i looked for solutions for playing retro PC games and it was not an easy task.

I thought it would be a good idea opening a thread discussing the different solutions and have everything or at least most of it in one place.

 

So i will start with the solutions i tried and my experiences with them:

DosBox - It works but it has a lot of graphical artifacts and glitches, games are darker than they should be, it has rendering issues that might seem normal to those who never played those games bare metal.

Old PC - Bare Metal DOS - This should have the best compatibility with DOS games, but you won't be able to run games that require Windows Like Age of Empires II or Fallout Tactics, not a stable\reliable option.

Old PC - Windows 9x\ME - Should have the best compatibility all around, though not a stable\reliable option.

Newer PC - 32-Bit Windows NTVDM - Requires third party solutions for sound to work (SoundFX 2000, VDMSound), Compatibility issues with games using the Build engine that require sketchy modifications to game files, best option for performance, Very stable.

Newer PC - PCem - Best option for compatibility, Slowest Performance, You may experience sound volume issues. 

Virtual Machines (VMWare, VBox, etc) - Not recommended, pretty much unusable even if you workaround the compatibility issues with modern processors.

 

I personally went with NTVDM,

I installed Windows 2000 on my AMD FX 8320E machine, installed drivers and SoundFX 2000 and was ready to go.

Windows 2000 is very stable, the performance is blazing fast and i am having a blast

Yes there are compatibility issues, the question is whether you can put up with them and find workarounds.

Some workarounds are sketchy and dirty but they work though create more issues, just like the side effects of a medication.

 

 

Guides:

PCem guide:

 

Drivers:

Windows 9x\ME:

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/

 

Windows 2000:

Note: In case that there are no Windows 2000 drivers listed on the motherboard manufacturer's website - Windows XP motherboard drivers from the manufacturer's website should work without issues (GIGABYTE, ASUS, MSI, etc)

 

Modified Catalyst Control Center drivers, ATi\AMD HD 2000\3000\4000\6000\7000 (requires extended kernel): http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/archives/571484.html

 

Patches:

Windows 9x\ME:

Spoiler

 

 

Windows 2000:

Spoiler

http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/

http://win2k.org/wlu/wluen.htm

 

Windows 2000 Service Pack 4: http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/W2KSP4_EN.EXE

Windows 2000 Unofficial Service Pack 5.1: http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/usp51.zip

UURollup: http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/Windows2000-UURollup-v11-d20141130-x86-ENU.7z

Windows Legacy Updater: http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/archives/1995327.html

Extended Kernel: http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/archives/1299806.html

Root Certificates Update: http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/rootsupd.exe

Change core count limit (.bat batch file):

@ECHO OFF
REG ADD "HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager" /t REG_DWORD /v RegisteredProcessors /d 32 /f
ECHO(
PAUSE

Change core count limit (.reg Registry file):

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager]
"RegisteredProcessors"=dword:00040960

DirectX Redistributable February 2010: http://www.oldversion.com/windows/download/directx-9-0c-feb-2010

DirectX Redistributable June 2010: http://w2krepo.somnolescent.net/Patches and Updates/directx_Jun2010_redist.exe

 

[Radium_Angel]

As always, finding drivers are a trick. Might help if you want this thread to expand, to post where you found the old drivers and/or OS patches (if you patched your OS, that is)

I used to run a WInNT 4.0 for DX games prior to DX 6.

[manikyath]

for anything requiring 32MB graphics memory or less 86box is good enough™.

 

then there's a small gap in support before we're at suff that (with workarounds) will mostly run on a modern system.

 

the biggest issue remains in that gap. it's why i have a pair of windows XP machines sitting on the shelf, because some games just dont like being on a high end platform for very weird reasons, and i jusst havent found a software layer that's less fuss than pulling an XP machine off the shelf.

 

if you are into dos era games enough to have an old machine for the era, i recommend getting something windows 98SE, it's just much easier to deal with than DOS. also - put your C: drive on a compactflash card, the troubles of getting data on/off your retro pc go away if you can access it like it's a memory card (because it is.), and CF to IDE adapters are a tenner even for a fancy one.

 

if you're in the market for a hardware solution for that "gap", i suggest hunting down a windows XP (or vista or early 7) era laptop(because easy to set up and put away) that either comes with a recovery disk, or still has winXP/vista/7 drivers available from the manufacturer. (HP basicly doesnt clean up drivers for old systems, so if you buy an XW4300, you can still download every windows xp driver like it's 2005)

again - for XP machines i recommend going with a compactflash card. this time not for the data transfer side, but because IDE (CF is IDE) is better supported than SATA, and it's basicly a poor man's SSD solution. my winXP laptop boots in something like 5 seconds, the loady bars on the winxp boot screen dont even make it half way the bar. you *do* need some trickery to make windows XP accept it as an internal drive though.

 

--

also, because you mention it as an example, i need to add this:

AoE2 has a community patch to make it well playable on a modern system, probably better than any old platform ever did: https://userpatch.aiscripters.net/

in fact - 'classic' AoE2 community is alive and well. there's about 1K active players playing AoE2 on voobly at this moment.

[thrasher_565]

what i find missing on topics like this is what games work and dont. kinda like what gpu plays 98 games the best. its not the 6800 or x850...

i no really old pc stuff is costly like socket 7 well there should still be cheap amd or 478, probably is what chip set is most stable and were to get drivers... still...

w2000 is really stable from what i heard but not all games work like pointed out.

98se...usb is a pain. some have no problems but others...

i heard that StarTech.com IDE to SATA Hard Drive or Optical Drive Adapter Converter is the best for 98.

[Vishera]

6 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

As always, finding drivers are a trick. Might help if you want this thread to expand, to post where you found the old drivers and/or OS patches (if you patched your OS, that is)

I used to run a WInNT 4.0 for DX games prior to DX 6.

That's some good feedback, i will edit the OP and add the sources i used for drivers.

[Vishera]

9 hours ago, manikyath said:

for anything requiring 32MB graphics memory or less 86box is good enough™.

86Box is similar to PCem.

9 hours ago, manikyath said:

also, because you mention it as an example, i need to add this:

AoE2 has a community patch to make it well playable on a modern system, probably better than any old platform ever did: https://userpatch.aiscripters.net/

in fact - 'classic' AoE2 community is alive and well. there's about 1K active players playing AoE2 on voobly at this moment.

I mentioned it in the context of running bare metal DOS,

After all what's the point of a nostalgia\retro gaming PC if it can't run Age of Empires II?

7 hours ago, thrasher_565 said:

what i find missing on topics like this is what games work and dont.

That's a good point, unfortunately i can't do that on my own, it requires a community effort to compile a game compatibility list.

[manikyath]

2 minutes ago, Vishera said:

mentioned it in the context of running bare metal DOS,

After all what's the point of a nostalgia\retro gaming PC if it can't run Age of Empires II?

running aoe2 is a moot point though, you build a retro rig for something your modern pc cant run. aoe2 isnt somehow the benchmark for retro gaming, it's still the now.

 

7 hours ago, thrasher_565 said:

what i find missing on topics like this is what games work and dont.

86box runs anything old enough to run on win98SE with 32MB video memory. from my testing with some especially picky games the emulation seems complete enough to not have any issues.

 

the big issue is the weird early winxp gap where things are too hardcoded to have patches to work on modern systems, but too new to run in an emulated context.

 

as for the picking hardware side of things.. it doesnt matter all that much, really.. just pick something period correct for the games you want to run. beyond that it's hard enough to find working hardware that you may as well take the first (only) choice.

[Vishera]

9 minutes ago, manikyath said:

running aoe2 is a moot point though, you build a retro rig for something your modern pc cant run. aoe2 isnt somehow the benchmark for retro gaming, it's still the now.

I know, i was joking.

[Vishera]

11 hours ago, thrasher_565 said:

what i find missing on topics like this is what games work and dont. kinda like what gpu plays 98 games the best. its not the 6800 or x850...

i no really old pc stuff is costly like socket 7 well there should still be cheap amd or 478, probably is what chip set is most stable and were to get drivers... still...

w2000 is really stable from what i heard but not all games work like pointed out.

98se...usb is a pain. some have no problems but others...

i heard that StarTech.com IDE to SATA Hard Drive or Optical Drive Adapter Converter is the best for 98.

I just found out a game i can't run - An Elder Scrolls Legend: Battlespire,

The question is what solution can run this game?

Even on DosBox getting it to work at all is a serious challenge.

[Thaldor]

I always keep 2 games as benchmark for emulation because they are something so far almost nothing runs: Riven and Mean City (English learning game). Both use QuickTime Player and for some reason everything just fails with it. Riven is easy to run with the GoG version and you can get it to run with ScummVM but Mean City, just nope.

Last time I tried was with PCem building about the Win95 machine I have as hardware (Intel Pentium MMX 233Mhz, 32MB RAM, ATi Rage Pro 16MB, Sound Blaster 16 WavEffects) and completely over everything (Pentium II, ton of RAM, Voodoo 3 etc.) and couple other tries with different setups and nope, QuickTime based games seem to be complete lag fests. It's probably just some kink that makes it impossible to emulate without going through a ton of special cases.

 

But either way. I always prefer to go for Win95 for DOS machines just because it actually has MS-DOS rather than only use DOS for booting. Apart from USB support, the HW support and software support are pretty much identical and pretty much outside of some pretty tiny differences from gaming perspective the only real difference between Win95 and Win98 is that MS-DOS. Basicly Win95 works more as Win3.1 completely on top of MS-DOS while Win98 works more like modern Windows where DOS is only used to boot the machine, this is why it would be better to differentiate the Win98 and Win98 DOS which has separately installed MS-DOS (kind of early dual-boot).

This of course only applies to those going for the real hardware as with emulation you can just use PCem or whatever to emulate Win95/98 and use DOSbox for DOS games (or the other options and the workarounds for special cases).

Also if you are going to get into retro hardware especially DOS era stuff and want something crème de la crème builds, get ready to put on side budget for sound cards because those get expensive and fast. And you're going to get into the funny world of retro gamers spitting at each other while arguing which sounds better in where (pretty much MIDI stuff like MT-32 and SC-55 vs. SB16 vs. AWE32/64 vs. whatever, I don't really know, I am in the happy position that I managed to get MT-32 second hand in the late 90's and my first PC is actually my retro rig and came with the SB16 WavEffects and "custom" amp card in the early '97).

[Vishera]

I just tried a different method - Using the 16-bit MS-DOS subsystem in Windows 7's XP mode,

It works but games are launched in windowed mode, there are slight speed issues (some times the game/sound speed is a bit too fast) :

[Vishera]

DOSBox, Windows 7's XP Mode MS-DOS subsystem and PCem side by side comparison:

 

DOSBox has horrible visual artifacts

Windows 7's XP Mode MS-DOS subsystem can't stretch to full screen

PCem sometimes has volume issues

Real retro hardware is a pain in the arse to deal with and buy

NTVDM has issues with non ISA sound cards and the fix doesn't work well on Build engine games.

 

Every option is flawed.

The option i had the best experience with is NTVDM, and if you add an ISA sound card it would be the almost perfect solution.

[AutumnVolume]

I bought a barebones Compaq Evo off eBay a few years ago for $50. Nabbed a DVD-ROM drive for $10, a new-old stock Seagate 40 GB HDD for $20 (for authenticity ) and popped XP on it. Old HP monitor was $10 and the Dell keyboard and (roller-ball tracking AND pointing stick!) IBM mouse were $10 together on FB marketplace, it's a nice little retro setup that lets me play the original Roller Coaster Tycoon and Sim City 3000 among other classics in all their glory for $100. Maybe a bit pricey to some, but I honestly prefer most retro games over new ones so it was worth the investment for me.

 

[Vishera]

12 minutes ago, AutumnVolume said:

I bought a barebones Compaq Evo off eBay a few years ago for $50. Nabbed a DVD-ROM drive for $10, a new-old stock Seagate 40 GB HDD for $20 (for authenticity ) and popped XP on it. Old HP monitor was $10 and the Dell keyboard and (roller-ball tracking AND pointing stick!) IBM mouse were $10 together on FB marketplace, it's a nice little retro setup that lets me play the original Roller Coaster Tycoon and Sim City 3000 among other classics in all their glory for $100. Maybe a bit pricey to some, but I honestly prefer most retro games over new ones so it was worth the investment for me.

Nice!, Do you also play DOS games on that machine?

 

Personally i prefer to install older operating systems on newer hardware :D

I am running Windows 2000 on a FX 8320E and HD 6970.

[AutumnVolume]

On 5/26/2023 at 5:52 PM, Vishera said:

Nice!, Do you also play DOS games on that machine?

 

Personally i prefer to install older operating systems on newer hardware

I am running Windows 2000 on a FX 8320E and HD 6970.

I've been known to fire up Doom II from time to time.

 

Wow, that actually sounds really difficult to do. You like the challenge?

[Vishera]

1 hour ago, AutumnVolume said:

Wow, that actually sounds really difficult to do. You like the challenge?

Yes