eBay Argument with RTX 3090 Seller

[James720p]

This is a "who's the jerk?" question.  I'm 100% sure its not me, but wanted to see what unbiased 3rd parties have to say

 

Story:  I got a used PNY 3090.  Card arrives quickly.  I check VRAM with OCCT, all 24GB passes.  Next test is Battlefield 1.  Fans get loud in the menu.  When I join a game, after a few seconds the fans are loud as hell.  I fire up GPU-Z.

• GPU Temperature was about 82C while gaming
• GPU Hot Spot was over 105C while gaming.  Not quite 106C but I'm sure it was headed there.  It was surely throttling to try to keep it under 106C
• GPU Fan Speeds were at 100% and loud as hell (and they go to 100% almost immediately when it goes from loading screen to gaming)
• Sizeable frame rate fluctuations even in the same battle scene
• GPU was at about 75% load
• Heatsink fins were cool to the touch while hot spot was at 105C and it was using close to 300W total card power
  • I used to have a MSI 1080TI that used 250W total card power and the fins would burn my finger right away, and that was only 250W
• The VRAM was a nice chill 72C though

 

Note:  When this seller listed the 3090 he originally posted pictures of the 3080 version.  I pointed it out, he corrected the pictures to the correct card, the 3090.  I'm just pointing this out to show seller must have some experience with high end GPUs dealing with at least 2 and probably more.

 

• I break the bad news, say it is symptomatic of a VRAM thermal pad replacement gone wrong
• He is sorry to hear that, but tells me the card still has two years of PNY warranty and for me to contact PNY.  Also that it has not had mods and he knows this because he is the original owner

 

I already know that PNY warranty does not transfer, I look it up to confirm, and I'm correct.  Not only does the warranty not transfer to me, but this card is symptomatic of a mining card that had VRAM thermal pad replacement (not done correctly however) which would void the warranty even if it did transfer.  I'm livid.  I open a refund request immediately.  I would have accepted a partial refund to cover materials and my time to try and fix it myself, along with accepting all the risk myself, but I'm livid so no

 

• I state that the item is not working as intended
• He says temps vary.  It could be my case (I had side panel off on a NZXT 510 Flow) and to try canned air (I did that before I installed the card).  He says this is not a valid reason for a refund.  He says nothing is wrong with the card.  It outputs and it doesn't crash and he never experienced these issues.

 

After clearly showing him that warranty does not transfer he drops this:

 

"The card is under warranty if you have concerns. The card works properly and you may need a better power supply. Please contact support since returns are not accepted since it’s under warranty."

 

Not only is it not under warranty, but manufacturer warranty has zero relevance in the slightest regarding returns

 

Am I a jerk for wanting a refund on a 3090 that goes to 105C hotspot + 100% fan speed + thermal throttling after 20 seconds of gaming?

[Ebony Falcon]

Hope u used PayPal 

[8tg]

Repaste the card and put new thermal pads on.

This is a given for basically any used gpu, unless the seller specified the card has had new paste and pads installed before selling.

 

[Mick Naughty]

Seems like an easy dispute. 
never ran my card on air but it was an fe unit so temps wouldn’t be an issue anyway. 
Normally ebays claims are pretty good. Especially given all the discrepancies  with the sale and convo. 

[AkikoKumagara]

Seller is in the wrong. Make sure you properly open a case via eBay and explain everything in the same depth you did with the seller, or more.

They tend to favor buyers in cases like this.

[Middcore]

2 minutes ago, AkikoKumagara said:

They tend to favor buyers in cases like this. virtually all cases

 

[NaClKnight]

1 hour ago, James720p said:

I break the bad news, say it is symptomatic of a VRAM thermal pad replacement gone wrong

What are the symptoms of a failed VRAM thermal pad replacement? The fact that the rest of the GPU turned into a furnace while the VRAM was relatively cold? Or the fact that you couldn't feel any heat from the fins even at that excessive temeprature?

[James720p]

13 minutes ago, NaClKnight said:

What are the symptoms of a failed VRAM thermal pad replacement? The fact that the rest of the GPU turned into a furnace while the VRAM was relatively cold? Or the fact that you couldn't feel any heat from the fins even at that excessive temeprature?

Both.  And I believe the mod is often done by miners.  Although I could be wrong about that.

[NaClKnight]

1 minute ago, James720p said:

Both.  And I believe the mod is often done by miners.  Although I could be wrong about that.

That makes sense, but I was more curious about the mechanics of the failed swap. Does it indicate that the thermal pads are too thick, so that the VRAMs are the only things making contact with the plate and being cooled?

[James720p]

17 minutes ago, NaClKnight said:

That makes sense, but I was more curious about the mechanics of the failed swap. Does it indicate that the thermal pads are too thick, so that the VRAMs are the only things making contact with the plate and being cooled?

Yes, that is right.  If the pads are too thick, they act as spacers pushing the metal heatsink away from the GPU die.  This creates poor mounting pressure, or basically zero mounting pressure, and uneven contact with the paste.  

PNY and Gainward use 0.75mm thick pads (I *think*).  I don't believe there are any 0.75mm after market pads, but 1mm pads should work okay for PNY and Gainward.  Not great but passable.  Problem is someone might see a package that says "GPU VRAM Thermal Pad" and simply buy it and use it and its like 2mm or more.  

 

I wish they could make the pads more squishy but I guess the heat is too much for those sorts of materials.

[Mick Naughty]

Different brands make pads that are more malleable. Alot of options out there to do it right. Most just lack the initiative to try more than one and to properly measure. Which was prolly exaggerated with since covid/mining.

[James720p]

2 hours ago, James720p said:

I don't believe there are any 0.75mm after market pads

Actually there is at least one.  Kritical Thermal Pads makes a 0.75mm.  Kritical are supposed to be soft-ish so their 1mm might work well on a PNY too.

 

And an update on the seller:  A different buyer just left him negative feedback on a Dell RTX 3090.  Their comment is "“Like new” pulled from a new Dell, card I received was clogged up with dust!"

 

I think that buyer kept the card since they were able to leave a comment.

 

My PNY 3090 (also full of dust), was cheaper than that buyer's Dell 3090.  The Dell 3090's are almost always the cheapest 3090's on eBay.  And my PNY was $50 cheaper than the Dell from the same seller.  He sold more than one Dell priced $50 over my PNY.  Seller absolutely knows this PNY has a thermal issue.  Seller also tried to tell me that gaming on it was just fine for him.  He is selling multiple GPUs right after ETH went proof of stake.  This thing obviously sat on a rack and was never used for gaming.  

 

I myself have actually sold many GPUs in my life and I would have absolutely disclosed that this card has a thermal issue and requires re-padding + re-pasting.  It's too bad eBay doesn't flag the really egregious offenders.  Like the guy that wouldn't refund a package lost in the mail (tracking info proved USPS lost it) and told me to "file a claim with USPS for up to $100 of their default insurance" when USPS First Class Mail A) has no default insurance and B) its much more straight forward for the seller to file the claim if it is insured (which it wasn't).  Or the guy that sent me a counterfeit high-end MTG card and after I completely demolished it's authenticity (including seller's own photos from the listing showing discrepancies from other cards) he told me that I would have to pay return shipping (against eBay policy) and that there was a non-refundable $35 PayPal processing fee (which doesn't exist).  I had well over 1000 eBay feedback, 100% positive feedback as a seller (not rounded up but actually 100%) with hundreds of sales, and he still tried to make up a non-refundable $35 PayPal processing fee like I just joined eBay.  I was actually able to get eBay on the phone and they saw his made up non-refundable $35 PayPal processing fee and they did literally nothing because after that I watched his account feedback and other people left comments about fake cards after that.  Something worthy of a police investigation don't even get you banned I guess.

[jaslion]

7 hours ago, Middcore said:

 

And thats how I ended up with a joblot of gts450s that I still am getting rid off to this day

[ewitte]

Its Ebay you don't need a reason. They will refund you even if you just changed your mind.  I've been burned by that and almost burned by that (one opened a case but never returned it to me so Ebay sided with me).

 

As a seller I really don't like selling video cards there are all kinds of scams on both sides.

[James720p]

Question:  Since the seller is pure fraud (saying things like they actually contacted PNY and second-hand buyers totally have warranty, and that eBay returns cannot be accepted on items that still have manufacturer warranty)  

 

I think there is a 90% chance that the seller is going to lie about my return and say he got the item back in a different condition than he sent it (I already told him I would film myself putting in the box with serial number visible while handing it to the carrier).  My concern is what happens next?  eBay doesn't use Paypal anymore.  My credit card has a charge from eBay itself.  I really have no experience dealing with problems in the post-Paypal version of the site.  What if eBay cannot get the money back from the seller?  Will eBay still refund me and take the loss for me?  It used to be possible to get someone from eBay on the phone a long time ago, but the company has really gone downhill (a 20-year downhill slide)

 

Since I'm dealing with an obviously fraudulent seller, am I at risk of losing my money?  I'm 95% sure I can fix the thermal problem myself with a combination of 0.75mm and 1mm pads from Kritical.  Is it less risky to just fix it myself than to trust eBay?  

 

I left feedback including verbatim quotes from the seller describing how he claims he actually contacted PNY to confirm that warrant transfers and how eBay returns cannot be accepted on items that still have manufacturer warranty.  So I have some justice in that regard as long as eBay isn't dumb enough to remove the feedback.  It's just that if something happens and I don't have a refund or the card, I will lose my mother effing MIND and not because of the money, I can light $750 dollars on fire I don't care, I would lose my effing mind because of the principle

 

Is it worth the risk of getting screwed and completely (and I mean totally) losing my mind.  Or is that risk too high and I'm better of risking my own thermal overhaul which could A) not even fix problem or B) I break something in the process?

[Mick Naughty]

Well as its already been covered about the pics being different than the actual product, they wont have a real case. The ebay claims works all the same as paypal and is great. 
Pics of the convo will only help you. As well as the clear statement from pny stating the warranty info.

But if you think a simple thermal pad is the reason for memory temps being high, that should have been addressed already. I check all pads and repaste as soon as I get a used card or right after testing it. 

[James720p]

33 minutes ago, Mick Naughty said:

Well as its already been covered about the pics being different than the actual product, they wont have a real case. The ebay claims works all the same as paypal and is great. 
Pics of the convo will only help you. As well as the clear statement from pny stating the warranty info.

But if you think a simple thermal pad is the reason for memory temps being high, that should have been addressed already. I check all pads and repaste as soon as I get a used card or right after testing it. 

 

I assumed it was an incorrectly done VRAM pad replacement based on the symptoms.

 

But I just took the card out of my case, and the heatsink has never been removed (has the stickers over the screwheads)

 

Knowing that it has the original PNY thermal paste on the die, I'm not so sure I can fix it.  It might be a real problem with leaking current instead of a poor paste job.

[Mick Naughty]

1 hour ago, James720p said:

 

I assumed it was an incorrectly done VRAM pad replacement based on the symptoms.

 

But I just took the card out of my case, and the heatsink has never been removed (has the stickers over the screwheads)

 

Knowing that it has the original PNY thermal paste on the die, I'm not so sure I can fix it.  It might be a real problem with leaking current instead of a poor paste job.

Well its a known problem that are hot. I'd imagine a low end card would suffer from it more. I put mine on water, as it seems the best option given the design. So couldnt really blame the seller in my case if something was off. But my seller seemed straight forward about it, as much as I would actually care about.

[James720p]

eBay gave me a refund.  The seller relisted the card:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/275491038411

 

If anyone wants a card that goes to 105C hot spot in 8 seconds or less, loud as all hell, huge frequency swings, possibly able to maintain the 105C hotspot at 1400Mhz at low voltage long term but I didn't run it long enough to find out.  I just ran it for about 1 minute.  Then this might be the card for you

 

The seller is such a disorganized slum lord that he has a picture of a 3080 in the listing.  It was like that in the original listing, I pointed it out and I thought he fixed the listing but he might have provided corrected pictures in a direct message.  Either way he has photos of a 3080 after screwing that up once already

 

He definitely did not test the card himself after getting it back.  He knew about the problem.  And when the next person complains about thermal problems he will tell eBay I screwed up his card and ask them to remove my feedback.  If eBay does I might just snap

 

He sent me so many threats about calling the police on me for theft or mail fraud.  eBay told him to give me a return shipping label which he did not want to do and said he would call the police if I did not return his item, but he eventually gave me a shipping label.  And he sent me a bunch of messages about charging me with mail fraud if he did not get the card back in the condition he sent it to me in (which according to him had no thermal problems).  I had to film myself showing the thermal problems (including clocks and voltages) and taking the card out of the PC and putting it into a box in one continuous video without breaks (making sure to capture the serial number which was also in the corrected photos).  The box had a lot of unique things (like wear patterns and old stickers) and I used tape and markings to make it tamper proof.  Then I had to film myself taking the box with the tamper proof markings intact and handing it off to the carrier

 

People get no compensation when their time is wasted.  People who waste other people's time do not receive any punishments for wasting peoples' time.  The only compensation I get for having so much time wasted is the feedback I left.  And that is why if some drone in a call center removes my feedback because the seller claims I screwed his card up, and they just brainlessness listen to him without gathering the context, I might just snap

 

 

 

[James720p]

2 minutes ago, NastyFlytrap said:

What makes you think its a VRAM issue though? You said yourself that they are at 72C, so, whats the issue?

I don't.  The hot spot has nothing to do with the VRAM temps.  The fact that the VRAM temps were 72C while the hot spot was 105C at low clocks and voltages combined with the fact the the seller used it for mining appeared to be related to a VRAM pad replacement not done correctly (using pads that are too thick for example).  But in the end, the card still had the warranty stickers on the screws, so while the card was symptomatic of a VRAM thermal job done wrong, the heatsink had in fact never been removed, and PNY probably screwed up the paste

[James720p]

Jesus Christ.  I cannot believe I have to spell this out

 

Yes the VRAM temps are fine.  If a BAD VRAM pad replacement had been done... it would be BAD because it screwed up cooling on the core, not because it screwed up cooling on the vram itself

 

If a VRAM pad replacement improves VRAM temps but ruins CORE temps it would be considered a BAD replacement even though it improved VRAM temps!!!  How do you not understand this

 

And many pads are not very squishy.  A lot of brands sacrificed squishiness for stronger cooling.  Some brands like Kritical are squishy-ish, but even then if you use a 2mm pad where it should be 0.75mm, when you add up the pressure from all the pads even Kritcal pad's might cause problems, but I don't know

[James720p]

17 minutes ago, NastyFlytrap said:

If something is working as intended why would that indicate that they tried to replace them and failed?.

obviously I did not know what the VRAM temps were before the card was in my possession.  If the VRAM was 110C out of the box or 72C out of the box, HOW WOULD I KNOW????

 

If VRAM was 110C out of the box and a pad replacement got VRAM to 72C, then it would NOT have been working as intended out of the box

If VRAM was 72C out of the box, then it would have been working as intended (actually better than intended) out of the box

 

In both of these cases I would see VRAM at 72C.  SO HOW WOULD I KNOW IF IT WAS WORKING AS INTENDED OUT OF THE BOX IF I SEE THE SAME THING IN EACH CASE.  AND SINCE 72C IS ACTUALLY REALLY LOW, BETTER THAN INTENDED, THINK ABOUT IT...

[James720p]

maybe a car analogy will help you understand basic cause and effect logic...

 

if you bought a used car, and later on you find out it had the transmission replaced at some point, would you ask "why did they replace the transmission?  the car is working as intended"

[xg32]

10 minutes ago, James720p said:

.

you win the dispute either way, as for the card, about what i expect from a used ebay card.

[Slizzo]

16 minutes ago, NastyFlytrap said:

Im clearly too dumb to understand the connection between you buying a card, testing it, seeing that the VRAM temperatures are fine, and blaming them for doing a bad job with the replacement

Clearly.

You're not picking up what he's throwing down.

 

Bad VRAM thermal pad replacement symptoms:

 

VRAM is operating at GOOD, normal temps. CORE TEMP is thermal throttling.

 

This indicates that the VRAM thermal pads that were used are TOO THICK and are keeping the cold plate on the heatsink/fan assembly from properly touching the GPU core, and providing cooling to it.

 

 

The card that OP received exhibited this behavior, thus his issues with accepting the card. After reading what he posted I am inclined to agree with him.