controller vs joystick

[tsmspace]

I built a controller for space games, and continuously have this discussion: 

 

just go get a HOTAS or Thrustmaster 160000 , , why would you use a controller?? 

 

my argument is: why use your entire arm to move a stick when one finger will do?? 

[Crunchy Dragon]

My hands cramp up if I use a controller.

[tsmspace]

2 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

My hands cramp up if I use a controller.

anything new gives you a cramp. If you don't wear boots for a while then wear them, you get a cramp. If you don't stand still in long lines for a while, then do it, you get a cramp. It's just a matter of working your way up in duration. 

[Doobeedoo]

I love space games and keyboard and mouse any day for me. Game just needs to be made well. 

Just go reminded about Anthem with it's trash mouse controlls.

[Crunchy Dragon]

19 hours ago, tsmspace said:

anything new gives you a cramp. If you don't wear boots for a while then wear them, you get a cramp. If you don't stand still in long lines for a while, then do it, you get a cramp. It's just a matter of working your way up in duration. 

I've used controllers pretty consistently for over a year. My hands still cramp with a controller.

[tsmspace]

20 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

I love space games and keyboard and mouse any day for me. Game just needs to be made well. 

Just go reminded about Anthem with it's trash mouse controlls.

I don't like having to work 8 buttons with my left, plus all the other buttons like targetting and such (on keyboard). I must admit I never tried to get particularly good, but I found that generally with any experiences of 6dof I had, I didn't use 6dof, and instead just mostly went forward, and then strafe,,, roll and up/down was always hard, and never reached equal fluency of the other directions,, meanwhile with WASD mouse for walking games I became instantly fluent and found it to be super normal feeling. 

 

Meanwhile with 4 joysticks I get a similar super normal feeling and fluency sensation with all 6dof. I don't ever feel like I am trapped in a trick pony box, and I feel mostly frustrated with probably the screen limitations of not being able to see as much as if I could look with my head. 

[jones177]

I think it is an emersion thing.

I have HOTAS with throttles and it just feels better. More like a sim and less as a game.

It does take up way too much space so more of a hassle. 

[Doobeedoo]

5 hours ago, tsmspace said:

I don't like having to work 8 buttons with my left, plus all the other buttons like targetting and such (on keyboard). I must admit I never tried to get particularly good, but I found that generally with any experiences of 6dof I had, I didn't use 6dof, and instead just mostly went forward, and then strafe,,, roll and up/down was always hard, and never reached equal fluency of the other directions,, meanwhile with WASD mouse for walking games I became instantly fluent and found it to be super normal feeling. 

 

Meanwhile with 4 joysticks I get a similar super normal feeling and fluency sensation with all 6dof. I don't ever feel like I am trapped in a trick pony box, and I feel mostly frustrated with probably the screen limitations of not being able to see as much as if I could look with my head. 

Yeah I guess what you're initially comfortable with and if you've given time to try different. 

I'm very used to using half of keyboard with my hand, playing arpgs and mmos with so many binds just feels second nature. I also play fair amount of fps so mouse for camera always felt great and quick.

Like playing game say Star Citizen more known title. Sadly many devs in AAA screw with basic controlls that it's very questionable what are they doing.

[tsmspace]

8 hours ago, jones177 said:

I think it is an emersion thing.

I have HOTAS with throttles and it just feels better. More like a sim and less as a game.

It does take up way too much space so more of a hassle. 

for me it's not about eliminating HOTAS, it's about exactly what you just brought up, the amount of equipment a HOTAS is. Sure, you will have times when you want to sit in a real life sim chair, that moves, vibrates, has screens in all directions, and a massive control system built in. It's only 10,000 dollars~! Or, you could buy a normal hotas, struggle with getting the joystick to be in the right place on a table, have it slide around while you try to play, and then after a while feel like you wish you could kick your feet up somehow because so many flying games have these long bits of just approaching or something,,,, or, lets presume xbox shipped with a 4 joystick controller,, the joysticks could work as triggers for shooters (triggers are already an axis anyway, tuneable sensitivity is well developed), and then you don't need to sit anywhere specific, you can chuck the controller to your friends across the room, you can stand, pace, sit, move back, get closer,, it's just a different piece of kit,, but of the pieces of kit it's the smallest and easiest to use and have around. Gamepads are still a compromise, because pretty soon you're out of buttons, but overall it literally doesn't exist that there is a 6 axis capable gamepad, while  there IS everything else, and overall the result is there are basically 0 6axis games in popular distribution. (don't try to convince me star citizen is popular. There are no onlyfans porn pages over it, and there are tons of onlyfans porn pages for every popular game.)

 

okay I don't actually know anything about whether there are onlyfans porn pages for other games, but I'm pretty convinced fortnite has. There's whole videos on youtube dedicated to showing their rooms they play in during streams. Star Citizen might be the right idea or at least a critical game type considering the void, but it's indie. 

[tsmspace]

6 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Yeah I guess what you're initially comfortable with and if you've given time to try different. 

I'm very used to using half of keyboard with my hand, playing arpgs and mmos with so many binds just feels second nature. I also play fair amount of fps so mouse for camera always felt great and quick.

Like playing game say Star Citizen more known title. Sadly many devs in AAA screw with basic controlls that it's very questionable what are they doing.

Ah,,, and the controls, now for 6axis, the controls are technically still up in the air. I have an example. Quadcopters have pretty much stabilized out at "mode 4", but when they first started to become popular, there were a few different configs, and drones do NOTHING BUT FLY. There's no buttons involved at all, only two joysticks and nothing else. 4 axis, and people didn't have it worked into a "best practice" for years. 

 

I naturally think I've figured out the best config for my own controller, but I already know there is another major preference and in fact other people who've tried my controller wanted this other config right off the bat,, because they are engrained to go forward with the left thumb. I did try to forward with the left thumb a few times initially also, but was pretty good at that is up, not forward, already because my config for a normal xbox controller had forward on a thumbstick button press. However, once you get in there pretty solid, you will want up to be fluent and connected to lateral strafe, so I put it on the same stick, left thumb. Look is all on the right thumb, but I already know that a ton of people will want roll and pitch on the same stick. I think that's so airplanes in space myself, and nothing about the dragon capsule reminds me of an airplane, but just the same, games are games and people will have muscle memory, and want pitch and roll tied onto one stick, and they will put yaw somewhere else. For me, I think if you're looking around with the crafts nose, put it on one stick. You don't need to roll in space as much, and if it's not necessary to achieve your goal of seeing somewhere or pointing a gun, you wouldn't want to waste the fuel and time and extra motions of the inputs, so you wouldn't roll when a yaw will do (just IMO), but people will want to feel in control on their first day, and they will have their mind set on it, so they will want it. 

 

In this case, , the developer will say,, hmm... I think it's higher performance to have the controls like this, and these players will have a combat advantage,, but I think that it's more common that these very players will already expect this, so even though it's a waste of movement and therefore a disadvantage in gameplay, they will be more capable because it is already familiar,, so what do they set as a default??? For me, i think ship the better one, the one that eventually will become the most desirable,, but if feedback from players wanting the airplanes in space config outnumbers,, you are stuck. 

 

and make no mistake,, there is a massive community of players who just want airplanes in space. It's the only kind of space game that's mainstream. 

[jones177]

13 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

for me it's not about eliminating HOTAS, it's about exactly what you just brought up, the amount of equipment a HOTAS is. Sure, you will have times when you want to sit in a real life sim chair, that moves, vibrates, has screens in all directions, and a massive control system built in. It's only 10,000 dollars~! Or, you could buy a normal hotas, struggle with getting the joystick to be in the right place on a table, have it slide around while you try to play, and then after a while feel like you wish you could kick your feet up somehow because so many flying games have these long bits of just approaching or something,,,, or, lets presume xbox shipped with a 4 joystick controller,, the joysticks could work as triggers for shooters (triggers are already an axis anyway, tuneable sensitivity is well developed), and then you don't need to sit anywhere specific, you can chuck the controller to your friends across the room, you can stand, pace, sit, move back, get closer,, it's just a different piece of kit,, but of the pieces of kit it's the smallest and easiest to use and have around. Gamepads are still a compromise, because pretty soon you're out of buttons, but overall it literally doesn't exist that there is a 6 axis capable gamepad, while  there IS everything else, and overall the result is there are basically 0 6axis games in popular distribution. (don't try to convince me star citizen is popular. There are no onlyfans porn pages over it, and there are tons of onlyfans porn pages for every popular game.)

 

okay I don't actually know anything about whether there are onlyfans porn pages for other games, but I'm pretty convinced fortnite has. There's whole videos on youtube dedicated to showing their rooms they play in during streams. Star Citizen might be the right idea or at least a critical game type considering the void, but it's indie. 

I had no trouble with it sliding around since it is very heavy but it took up a lot of space.

This was the setup.

The table is 55" and the monitor is 38".

It is also my sit down VR setup so even more clutter.

Spoiler

If I wanted to play a sim now it would be with an Xbox controller since the HOTAS has been put away.  I replaced the monitor with a 55" OLED TV so no room.

 

I never thought about ranking games/sims by their onlyfan sites. Interesting concept.  

 

[tsmspace]

9 minutes ago, jones177 said:

I never thought about ranking games/sims by their onlyfan sites. Interesting concept.  

yeah a bit of a joke I've been having.