Base model Apple M2 MacBook Pro SSD Up To 50% slower than M1 MacBook Pro SSD | Half the NAND chips, half the speed

[Paul Thexton]

48 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

What device should all those people buy who do nothing but surfing the web, using the office suite and watching some Netflix now and then?

M1 MacBook Air which as far as I know will continue to be sold alongside the M2.  The M1 is a perfectly capable SoC.

[saltycaramel]

Oh boy the latest video from Max Tech is something.  (where by "something" I mean he went full for most of the 7 points)

 

 

1) Apparently keeping the same design (just as advertised) is a "problem".

2) Same as point 1. He fails to understand the economics and the logistics of why this product exists as mere "SoC swap". Just like many Intel MacBooks before it were mere "CPU swaps" of the previous model.

3) I don't even know where to start with this, he doesn't understand how fixed function hw encoding/decoding works and he thinks he's somehow "disproving" an 8k encoder by testing 4k encoding (wtf).

4) Blah blah blah fabricated extreme test conditions, probably solvable by Apple via an update to tune the fan behavior.

5) Ok, the SSD "issue" of sourcing 256GB chips instead of 128GB chips on the base model of a last-of-its-kind laptop, ok, overblown though.

6) The (apples to oranges) comparison with the old high end 16" Intel i9 MBP and his "market research" about the price of Chinese NAND modules are some dense stuff.  

7) Overblown and it does perform better than its predecessor in some regards. And it's not unprecedented, in the past for example some models of iMac and Mac Mini (and even some Thinkpads) were downgraded from Low Voltage to Ultra Low Voltage Intel CPUs, from upgradeable to soldered RAM, from upgradeable to soldered SSD, etc. people act like "selective downgrades of certain aspects" or different sourcing of parts never happen, newsflash, it happens. Good for Apple if they can pull it off and deliver a great everyday machine (save for extreme stress test conditions) anyway.  

 

Does seeing some valid concerns be presented amid a sea of dumbness alter your perception of the presenter and of the seriousness of said concerns? It should.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Apparently keeping the same design (just as advertised) is a "problem".

Some of the worst things Apple has done is change a perfectly good design for the sake of change and it's worse, looking at you touch bar. Yea some people liked it, it's still objectively bad when you put it through UX testing and evaluation. The same bad design is leeching in to new cars as well, literally for driving safety physical tactile buttons are a necessity. Flat touch surfaces are legitimately not safe, please bloody stop (Doesn't apply to Apple I know, but they bloody started this design idea popularity wise).

 

If it's good and works well leave well enough alone, please.

[saltycaramel]

Moreover, sometimes it’s good to leave some runaway for companies and institutions that have “standardized” on a certain format by keeping said format around even after a new design is released. 

 

Pretty sure MacMini colocation farms, MacMini farms at AWS, etc. have standardized their rack mounting gear on the shape, cooling design and internal PSU of the current (2010-2022) MacMini case. I hope and expect it will stay around some more years one way or the other, even after the new flatter-with-external-PSU MacMini is released. 

 

Maybe some enterprises, schools and others had “standardized” on the 2012 Ivy Bridge 13” Macbook Pro with-actual-rj45-ethernet Apple kept around for many years untouched, in a corner of their online store.

 

And maybe lots of folks and companies have “standardized” on the 13” touchbar MBP, the “second best selling laptop on the planet”. 

 

 

Youtubers: “WhY iS DiS sTiLL a tHinG?!1”

[Paul Thexton]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

The same bad design is leeching in to new cars as well, literally for driving safety physical tactile buttons are a necessity.

100%. Wasn’t there an LTT video recently of an EV where this was a complaint?

[Paul Thexton]

5 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Oh boy the latest video from Max Tech is something.

I can’t watch his videos. Everything is either an Earth shatteringly unmitigated disaster or Rainbow crappingly amazing. Pure click bait merchant. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Paul Thexton said:

100%. Wasn’t there an LTT video recently of an EV where this was a complaint?

Yes, but it's been a stupid ass problem on Tesla's for ages. At least the most insane one of those was fixed, think it was the wiper speed could only be adjust from the media tablet. Either way car makers have been trying really stupid and actually unsafe things.

[Paul Thexton]

Just now, leadeater said:

wiper speed could only be adjust from the media tablet.

What?! Just what I need, when it’s raining and visibility is impaired, I need to take my eyes off the road to make sure I’m tapping the wiper controls on the touchscreen instead of something else? JFC

[AlTech]

On 7/1/2022 at 2:10 PM, Dracarris said:

Let me guess - you were among the Einsteins that screamed „trash“ when Apple announced the iphone SE with a 720p display? Go ahead and calculate the pixel densities of these two devices.

Which is exactly what this whole thread is and what YOU have been doing all this time, ranting about a single MBP config that no one is forced to buy! Ooh the double standards, and yet there are no complain-threads about these Thinkpads.

I don't have the hard numbers to prove it besides the number of base model macs being sold on eBay but most people who buy macs buy the base configuration. Rarely a mac customer will buy an upgraded preset configuration (like a 512GB upgrade) and extremely rarely will they purchase a built to order configuration (like going to 16GB or 24GB RAM on the M2 macs).

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

I don't have the hard numbers to prove it besides the number of base model macs being sold on eBay but most people who buy macs buy the base configuration. Rarely a mac customer will buy an upgraded preset configuration (like a 512GB upgrade) and extremely rarely will they purchase a built to order configuration (like going to 16GB or 24GB RAM on the M2 macs).

The fuck are you talking about. Usually higher models will always be kept in stock and there basically isn't any friction for user opting for a higher spec model online. My own dad bought a 512GB MacBook Air two years ago.

 

People buying the 256GB model know what they're getting and was probably more interested in the price point than anything

[AlTech]

9 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

The fuck are you talking about. Usually higher models will always be kept in stock and there basically isn't any friction for user opting for a higher spec model online. My own dad bought a 512GB MacBook Air two years ago.

And that's not indicative of most people buying macs. Most people buy the base model.

9 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

People buying the 256GB model know what they're getting and was probably more interested in the price point than anything

Not entirely. People expect the base model to not be a bad experience.

[saltycaramel]

23 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

People expect the base model to not be a bad experience.

 

And they’re not getting a bad experience. 

 

They’re getting the laptop experience of a lifetime compared to a Wintel laptop that hits the brakes the moment it’s unplugged. (this down here is the 16GB/512GB but a lot of the video applies to the M2 in general, especially the unplugged performance, the GPU and the superior battery life)

 

 

Also this truth bomb from Gruber:

https://overcast.fm/+B7NCzpmhg/1:53:50

 

You either don’t care about such a geeky drama about I/O or you care but it’s the least of your problems if the 200$ upgrade is a deal breaker. 

[HenrySalayne]

35 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

And they’re not getting a bad experience. 

If you compare Apples to Apples, they do. All you are doing is the classic fallacy of relative privation, trying to derail this topic from the basic fact that the M2 is worse than the predecessor.

 

[saltycaramel]

It is kinda weird and unusual for Apple that a newer model, even if it's just one particular SKU and only that, has worse flash storage I/O than the previous model. 

 

But it's not a "bad experience" per se, in absolute terms.

 

And it's not "shit tier" per se, in absolute terms. 

You're the one trying to mix up relative and absolute realities about this superb laptop.

[HenrySalayne]

22 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

But it's not a "bad experience" per se, in absolute terms.

 

And it's not "shit tier" per se, in absolute terms. 

You're the one trying to mix up relative and absolute realities about this superb laptop.

Once again your logic is flawed. What you call "absolute terms" are just arbitrary definitions you made up yourself.

[saltycaramel]

23 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Once again your logic is flawed. What you call "absolute terms" are just arbitrary definitions you made up yourself.

 

English is English.

 

A “bad experience” is a “bad experience”.

 

”Shit tier ssd” means “shit tier ssd”.

 

Those are pretty absolute statements, they got nothing to do with the relative comparison to its predecessors.

 

Don’t waste my time playing with words. 

[HenrySalayne]

9 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

English is English. A “bad experience” is a “bad experience”. ”Shit tier ssd” means “shit tier ssd”. Those are pretty absolute statements, they got nothing to do with the relative comparison to its predecessors. Don’t waste my time playing with words. 

Define a bad experience and a trash tier SSD then, if there is an absolute definition. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

[saltycaramel]

28 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Define a bad experience and a trash tier SSD then, if there is an absolute definition. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

 

If you eat at a Michelin-starred restaurant in 2020 and you feel you’ve eaten a 9/10 meal, and then you go there again in 2022 and eat what you feel is a 8.5/10 meal, the second slightly worse dinner in 2022 is not necessarily a “bad experience”, not by any stretch of imagination and by how the average person talks. It’s a slightly worse experience and only if you have knowledge of the previous dinner. 

 

95% of MBP M2 256GB users will never know they’re supposed to think it’s a “bad experience”. “Experience” is something you got to experience (shockingly!), not something you only notice if you have existing knowledge of the previous model or because you read about some internet drama.

 

5% of geeks will be like the guy in a corner at the party in the meme: “They don’t know that for the base M2 MBP SKU Apple sourced 1x256GB chips instead of 2x128GB chips.”

 

 

[Dracarris]

5 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

I don't have the hard numbers to prove it besides the number of base model macs being sold on eBay but most people who buy macs buy the base configuration. Rarely a mac customer will buy an upgraded preset configuration (like a 512GB upgrade) and extremely rarely will they purchase a built to order configuration (like going to 16GB or 24GB RAM on the M2 macs).

 

3 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

And that's not indicative of most people buying macs. Most people buy the base model.

Excuse me, what the actual fuck? Where are you pulling those claims from? All these "most people", "most Mac users" clauses in threads like this one, JFC either cite a credible source or just shut the hell up, I really have it up to here with these baseless random "most people" statements that are plainly used to fit ones own narrative.

[HenrySalayne]

12 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

If you eat at a Michelin-starred restaurant in 2020 and you feel you’ve eaten a 9/10 meal, and then you go there again in 2022 and eat what you feel is a 8.5/10 meal, the second slightly worse dinner in 2022 is not necessarily a “bad experience”, not by any stretch of imagination and by how the average person talks. It’s a slightly worse experience and only if you have knowledge of the previous dinner. 

 

95% of MBP M2 256GB users will never know they’re supposed to think it’s a “bad experience”. “Experience” is something you got to experience (shockingly!), not something you only notice if you have existing knowledge of the previous model or because you read about some internet drama.

You're lecturing me about "absolute" and then you lecture me about "you already need an experience to have the relative impression". How can you contradict yourself over and over again? So after all it is a relative statement, not an absolute? Good we cleared that up!

 

[saltycaramel]

6 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

You're lecturing me about "absolute" and then you lecture me about "you already need an experience to have the relative impression". How can you contradict yourself over and over again? So after all it is a relative statement, not an absolute? Good we cleared that up!

 

 

You dragged me into a ridiculous argument about the difference between “bad” and “worse”, something that should be clear since elementary school.

 

Bad is absolute.

 

Worse is relative and implies a comparison (be it with something in the past or something in the present you have knowledge of).

 

The storage I/O in the new M2 MBP makes for a slightly worse experience, sometimes.

Not a bad experience.

 

Go back to elementary school.

[HenrySalayne]

17 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Excuse me, what the actual fuck? Where are you pulling those claims from? All these "most people", "most Mac users" clauses in threads like this one, JFC either cite a credible source or just shut the hell up, I really have it up to here with these baseless random "most people" statements that are plainly used to fit ones own narrative.

1. You have no sources contradicting this claim.
2. He argued with the configurations on the used market, which are at least one metric, even if they are not perfect.

[leadeater]

54 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

a trash tier SSD then

A DRAM less SSD with a poor or no SLC cache that after less than 50GB of sustained writes drops to throughput lower than a good HDD, yes these SSD exist and/or have existed and that is mostly definitely the more accurate definition of what you speak of.

 

A good SATA SSD is not trash, yet you are calling an SSD 3 times faster trash simply because it's slower than the previous iteration/generation. It's worse, not terrible.

[Dracarris]

7 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

You have no sources contradicting this claim.

That's not how any of this works. The one that makes a claim has to come up with some sort of backing, not the other way round.

And ebay is a bad indicator, and btw also a lot of new machines sell through there, got nothing to do with the used market.

[HenrySalayne]

2 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

You dragged me into a ridiculous argument about the difference between “bad” and “worse”, something that should be clear since elementary school.

Bad is absolute.Worse is relative and implies a comparison (be it with something in the past or in the present you have knowledge of).The I/O in the new M2 MBP makes for a slightly worse experience. Not a bad experience.Go back to elementary school.

 No. You applied your own, relative definition and demanded all people must use your personal opinion as the absolute basis of their evaluation.

This is further demonstrated by your unnecessary use of additional line breaks in-between each sentence to use the maximum amount of space for the minimum amount of content.