Need help, Trying to upgrade from factory door speakers

[Spearlight]

A word of warning I am a completely new to all of this just trying to figure out everything as i do research and from other people knowledge.

I have been looking at these speakers https://www.kicker.com/CSC5-Coaxial-Speakers-4-Ohm Their Peak wattage power is 225 i plan on getting 4. 2 for front doors and 2 for rear doors. Their recommended RMS is 75 Watts with their Ohm at 4. I plan on running this speakers off a amp and that is my point of struggle currently trying to find the right amp. So far i am looking at this amp https://www.skaraudio.com/products/sk-m9005d-car-amplifier. Amp is 900 watts i picked this out due to the peak of all of the speakers would be at 900 watts (not sure if that is how that works) now obliviously that is peak i am not expecting to absolute crank these speakers so i don't expect them to get near the 900 watts. This amp at 4 Ohms would provide 85 watts RMS per channel if i am reading this correctly. The speaker are rated for 75 RMS so i am curious if the added 10 RMS this amp could provide would damage the speakers and if so would i just "tune" the amp down a little bit so we can be safe and if this was the case how would i go about this like would adjust the gain on the speakers etc. If anyone has any recommendation for speakers and or amps please let me know. I would like to stick to 5 1/4 speakers. If anymore information is needed let me know and i will provide it.

 

[Ralphred]

The assumptions you've made seem to be spot on.

Quote

the added 10 RMS this amp could provide would damage the speakers

It's a possibility, but yes, a slight attenuation would prevent this. Technically you are spot on with the 900 watt amp, but if someone crafted some kind of audio input that was driving some channels harder than others then you could over-drive some speakers.

A "half and a bit decibel" (0.5426 to be exact) attenuation would limit the output to ~88.24% which would make it max out at 75 watts instead of 85, though personally I think you would have to be very unlucky, deaf, or sabotaged to actually cause damage ever.

 

God, it's literally been years since I've done this stuff, you've made me feel young again

[Spearlight]

6 minutes ago, Ralphred said:

A "half and a bit decibel" (0.5426 to be exact) attenuation would limit the output to ~88.24% which would make it max out at 75 watts instead of 85

So if i understood this correctly we can indeed adjust the settings on the amp for this to work now my question is how i would go about this. I have attached an image of what seems to be the "settings" of the amp so to say now i only plan on using 4 channel and not the 5 one. i have circle the sections that would half to change now i am hoping you might be able to show were we can potential move the screw to lol. I know it can't be all accurate or even if it can be done through a photo lmao but i figured might as well ask lol.

[Spearlight]

16 minutes ago, Ralphred said:

God, it's literally been years since I've done this stuff, you've made me feel young again

lol am 16 almost 17 trying to figure this out so i can learn and have the skills just trying to do anything i can myself to learn the skills lol

[Ralphred]

Lol, there was me working out DB for you so it'd be nice and easy, and it's voltage on the controls.

So, you need to lose about 12-13% of the "power", turning those knobs to face "west" would work, gimme 5 mins to edit your pic...

[Ralphred]

Turn them all the way to the anti-clockwise first, then set as above.

You could get away with 2/3 of that adjustment amount, but I think you'll have "enough sound" as it is, feel free to tweak.

And, yeah, I was probably around that age when I did this last, now it's all company cars with boring stereos, enjoy yourself!

[OfficialTechSpace]

Realistically, there's only one proper way to do car audio. I'm disappointed to see that nobody here has said anything regarding it. People who don't know audio should stay out of it.

 

First off, OEM speaker locations are terrible for audio reproduction in most vehicles. Secondly, some amount of treatment for your speaker enclosures is absolutely necessary (this may involve: dampening, deadening, etc). Thirdly, DSP correction plays a large part in counteracting the deficiencies in your non-ideal environment. Fourthly, unless you're setting the delays for your system properly, your system won't be reaching its full potential.

 

You should also have separate drivers dedicated to covering their own areas of the response. Not coaxials. You need mid-bass woofers, midrange drivers, and tweeters. Subwoofers are only optional if you're okay with rolling-off your system above ~80Hz. Ideally, the midrange drivers and tweeters would be located in the A-pillar of your vehicle, but that requires a lot of custom fabrication.

 

For delays, each driver should be individually set according to its distance from your ears. They should be tuned to reach your ears at the same time, whether they're closest or farthest from you. Otherwise it screws up the stage, messes with your imaging, and confuses your systems response.

 

Lastly, as for driver recommendations there's only a few companies to pay attention to. Focal is one of them.

[Spearlight]

5 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Realistically, there's only one proper way to do car audio. I'm disappointed to see that nobody here has said anything regarding it.

 

First off, OEM speaker locations are terrible for audio reproduction in most vehicles. Secondly, some amount of treatment for your speaker enclosures is absolutely necessary (this may involve: dampening, deadening, etc). Thirdly, DSP correction plays a large part in counteracting the deficiencies in your non-ideal environment. Fourthly, unless you're setting the delays for your system properly, your system won't be reaching its full potential.

 

You should also have separate drivers dedicated to covering their own areas of the response. Not coaxials. You need mid-bass woofers, midrange drivers, and tweeters. Subwoofers are only optional if you're okay with rolling-off your system above ~80Hz. Ideally, the midrange drivers and tweeters would be located in the A-pillar of tour vehicle, but that requires a lot of custom fabrication.

 

For delays, each driver should be individually set according to its distance from your ears. They should be tuned to reach your ears at the same time, whether they're closest or farthest from you. Otherwise, it screws up the stage, and messes with your imaging.

 

Lastly, as for driver recommendations there's only a few companies to pay attention to. Focal is one of them.

I see and i do totally agree with what your saying i couldn't image what it could sound like with all of this done but with what i am doing now this is more like a stepping stone so to say this would be like a baby setup to see if i wanted to pursue a more custom setup as to what your describing i do totally agree to what your saying.

[Spearlight]

14 minutes ago, Ralphred said:

Turn them all the way to the anti-clockwise first, then set as above.

You could get away with 2/3 of that adjustment amount, but I think you'll have "enough sound" as it is, feel free to tweak.

And, yeah, I was probably around that age when I did this last, now it's all company cars with boring stereos, enjoy yourself!

i apprentice it very much you have been very helpful.

[OfficialTechSpace]

9 minutes ago, Spearlight said:

I see and i do totally agree with what your saying i couldn't image what it could sound like with all of this done but with what i am doing now this is more like a stepping stone so to say this would be like a baby setup to see if i wanted to pursue a more custom setup as to what your describing i do totally agree to what your saying.

It sounds like a lot, but with an $80 calibrated mic, a DSP processor, and some amount of treatment... it'll quite literally make or break your system. I was in your shoes a short while back, and my budget install turned bad really fast when I realized the limitations. It's absolutely necessary, and this is partially why: 

[Spearlight]

1 hour ago, Ralphred said:

Turn them all the way to the anti-clockwise first, then set as above.

You could get away with 2/3 of that adjustment amount, but I think you'll have "enough sound" as it is, feel free to tweak.

And, yeah, I was probably around that age when I did this last, now it's all company cars with boring stereos, enjoy yourself!

well i might half to find a new amp lol cause looks like the specification might not be true i will half to contact customer support and see for sure lol this sucks

[Ralphred]

2 minutes ago, Spearlight said:

looks like the specification might not be true

Which part of it?

[Spearlight]

Just now, Ralphred said:

Which part of it?

i have linked a picture above referring to what i am saying on the website says RMS at 4 ohms would be 85w but then if you go to the manual it says it does RMS at 55w

[Ralphred]

Yes, so it does, good catch.

[Spearlight]

I have sent a support email so should hopefully hear within tmr or next week more than likely next week.

[Spearlight]

while i wait on the response i have found a new Amp (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_530RSM4120/Soundstream-Reserve-RSM4-1200D.html) bit more wattage 1200W it says the RMS is 75w by 4 channels with 4-ohm the website and manual both correspond with the same specs and reviews seem good so more than likely will give this one a shot instead of the Skar 900w if the manual says the true specs can't even use it to began with.

[OfficialTechSpace]

52 minutes ago, Spearlight said:

while i wait on the response i have found a new Amp (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_530RSM4120/Soundstream-Reserve-RSM4-1200D.html) bit more wattage 1200W it says the RMS is 75w by 4 channels with 4-ohm the website and manual both correspond with the same specs and reviews seem good so more than likely will give this one a shot instead of the Skar 900w if the manual says the true specs can't even use it to began with.

These are just random Amps from non-reputable brands. If it's cheap, it's cheap for a reason. Rated/peak power handling should not be your main focus when looking for an amp. It's also generally a good idea to stay within one brands ecosystem. Doing such has many benefits, and some products are tailor-made to be paired with eachother.

 

This thread was marked as solved WAY too fast. Your inquiry is still clearly not resolved, and much is not understood. The amp selection is wrong, the drivers are wrong, and the whole plan of attack is wrong.

5 hours ago, Spearlight said:

The speaker are rated for 75 RMS so i am curious if the added 10 RMS this amp could provide would damage the speakers and if so would i just "tune" the amp down a little bit so we can be safe and if this was the case how would i go about this like would adjust the gain on the speakers etc.

Amps don't force power onto the speakers. Speakers draw the power they require from the amp. They will not be damaged by having a more powerful amplifier. It's actually more likely for them to be damaged when they're being used out of spec/below the advertised rating.

4 hours ago, Ralphred said:

5 hours ago, Spearlight said:

The speaker are rated for 75 RMS so i am curious if the added 10 RMS this amp could provide would damage the speakers

It's a possibility, but yes, a slight attenuation would prevent this.

It will not damage the speakers.

[Ralphred]

2 hours ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

It will not damage the speakers.

What an ignorant statement; tell me again how putting too much voltage across a coil won't damage it, feel free to reference Ohm's law, and why we substitute (R+2πfL) for R in this case.

Why your at it you could also tell us all how a 17 year old guy looking to not have his cheap factory fit speaker fart when turns up his favourite music is going to be worried about a 4.5ms delay between the two furthest channels, it's the metaphorical equivalent of trying to sell an Italian sports car to someone who came in asking to buy stage 1 kit for a Golf GTI.

[OfficialTechSpace]

27 minutes ago, Ralphred said:

Why your at it you could also tell us all how a 17 year old guy looking to not have his cheap factory fit speaker fart when turns up his favourite music is going to be worried about a 4.5ms delay between the two furthest channels, it's the metaphorical equivalent of trying to sell an Italian sports car to someone who came in asking to buy stage 1 kit for a Golf GTI.

Okay, 1) half of that isn't proper English, nor is it grammatically correct. That makes it very difficult to understand. 2) There are a number of steps to follow through on when installing a system, and setting delays is one of them. Leaving out these steps is like selling someone a turbo "kit", but without the manifold, oil return lines, intercooler, etc. They're crucial to the system as a whole, as is DSP correction, and proper acoustical treatment.

27 minutes ago, Ralphred said:

tell me again how putting too much voltage across a coil won't damage it, feel free to reference Ohm's law, and why we substitute (R+2πfL) for R in this case.

Nobody said anything about voltage. We were disputing the potential damage caused by having an amplifier rated at handling 10W more than the coaxial speakers were rated at. That's what the OP's question was, and power draw WON'T kill a speaker. The speaker draws whatever it needs from the amp, the amp doesn't force an unnecessary constant flow of power onto the speaker.

[Ralphred]

6 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

Nobody said anything about voltage.

Well, what you need to understand is that drivers make sound by using air displacement device or "cone". As the cone needs to oscillate to produce sound, we have to oscillate the magnetic field we use to control the cones position. By having energy stored as a magnetic field when a current flows through a wire, and alternating the current flow, we create an oscillating magnetic field ideal for our purpose. The only way to make current flow is via the application of a voltage across said wire, so EVERYTHING is about the voltage in this case.

If we use 1/√2 as an approximation* for the RMS of the peak value of V, and we know that P=85 or 75 in each case, and R=4, we can solve for V(peak) as √2√(PR).

This leaves us with an 85 watt RMS amp putting ~26 volts across a coil that is rated for ~24 volts, but as soon as we appreciate impedance=R+2πfL and is quoted as 4 as an average across 45<f<20000 and R is listed as 3.4, we can calculate that L is about 95.5μH, and at 45Hz 2πfL is so many orders of magnitude smaller than R, we can ignore it and say we are driving ~7 amps through a coil designed to accept  ~6.6 amps.

 

The only time you can say  

Quote

draws whatever it needs

is when you have "too many" watts available from a fixed voltage output PSU; audio amps by their very nature do not have fixed voltage outputs, it's the "crypto-fixed" impedance on the speaker that is the "constant" in these circuits.