Peak Peek - Apple officially announces new SE, new iPad Air, M1 Ultra, Mac Studio and Studio Display

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, HRD said:

Apple is not paying more in fact apple is getting a discount

https://www.techspot.com/news/91121-tsmc-increased-chip-prices-3-apple-while-others.html

 

Apple has built a successful line of products that uses its silicon and TSMC knows that

Apple products will sell well so apple is ordering a lot of chips in advance and of course, TSMC would like to keep that successful business partner.

Apple directly contributes to TSMC for the development of new nodes and pays for it. Price per wafer is or w/e is not the same as total contract price and negotiated terms, this is some very worrying logic you are using here.

.

You said AMD did a bad job, you're wrong. Apple paid more, simple as that. How else do you think Intel managed to queue jump for TSMC 3nm? Kind words?

[BabaGanuche]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I was waiting for that graph to drop

[HRD]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

As I said HUB was not correct to put the m1 pro/max cpu to 40-43 watts. this table from anandtech shows the clear difference.

 

[leadeater]

12 hours ago, HRD said:

As I said HUB was not correct to put the m1 pro/max cpu to 40-43 watts. this table from anandtech shows the clear difference.

Read my edit, you'll find moving it to where you want changes not a lot. M1 Pro/Max is better, it's specific significant advantage is single thread power which I've already said, like last page or more ago.

 

Edit:

And like you're posting literally the same things from the same sources I have so 

 

Also if you were to power cap single core power on the 6900HS to what it uses during MT then the ST score would drop to around ~1300-1350. A 30% performance lead to M1's.

[HRD]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Read my edit, you'll find moving it to where you want changes not a lot. M1 Pro/Max is better, it's specific significant advantage is single thread power which I've already said, like last page or more ago.

look at AnandTech's table it has many tests and Apple silicon is destroying intel while providing similar/better performance. 

+HUB actually improved their graph and made the m1 pro at 35w. I don't think you will disagree that Anandtech is better at reviewing processors/SoC.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, HRD said:

look at AnandTech's table it has many tests and Apple silicon is destroying intel while providing similar/better performance. 

Ryzen Mobile "destroys" Intel too... (at least in efficiency, 12th Gen is so much better than 11th Gen also)

 

Guess I have to remind you also, being better doesn't warrant a lot of the rhetoric being used, at all. For a lot of cases it's not as much better as is being said nor will have any real market impact because M1/M[x] is and likely will forever be Apple only.

 

And if all I care about was ST then M1 would be the choice not M1 Pro/Max, similarly on the PC side I wouldn't be getting a 6900HS either. Why spend more on something you do not need.

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

You can measure and log total energy used for the SoC, Anandtech already does this from memory.

 

you can but every system draws a different line one what it defines as SoC power, what is included in the SoC etc makes a big difference.

In the end the comparison of the entire package is what matters, if when you buy a zen platform you have no option but to have an AIO and RGB (strange) then that should be included in the power draw (you do have an option).  

Even just talking about cpu power some vendors might include more voltage controllers on the SoC package were others will delegate that to the VRM outside of the package this means you might have more VRM phases going into the package with power loss at this location compared to another system that has less phases going into the package but then splits these within the package...  

That is why you should be comparing like for like, peak power draw from the wall is not supper accurate but aggregated draw over time of a prolonged load can be done very accurately (there have been years of work done by electricity companies to ensure they can charge you for every wh you use after all) and this is what matters not peak power draw.

Most (if not all) metrics that use self reported numbers form the chips internal senses are subject to sampling issues were high sampling rates adds extra load to the system and low sampling rates can miss lots of spikes and dips.  

 

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

You said AMD did a bad job, you're wrong. Apple paid more, simple as that. How else do you think Intel managed to queue jump for TSMC 3nm? Kind words?

Its not just that Apple paid more its that apple paid years before AMD. Apple has the cash flow that means they can pre-pay (and thus fund new node development) 5+ years before the use that node! AMD even with thier new money now can't afford to pre-pay for the next 5+ years of production, apple pre-paying enables TSMC to build out these new nodes without taking out high cost loans, what apple get for this is priority access when the node is ready (I think that is fair enough). 

 

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

I said they both use nothing, not some magic 3W number you got from where exactly? Like Phison E18 12nm controller uses 3W and if you are saying that's what Apple's SSD controller in a 5nm SoC is using then they screwed up royally.

P.S. Just stop taking comments and conversations so personally, not everything is about you and what you have said specifically  If you want to join in on a conversation that started from hype train BS then please keep the origin in mind, because I may well be comment on that not you. 

 

 

Sure I was quoting you, and my comment was regarding something very similar to what you said and that nobody else have brought up, but my comment totally was not against you.

 

 

See how difficult to becomes to have a conversation when one person in it breaks conventional rules of conversation by for example quoting one person and then in the text respond to a completely different person without giving any indication of who said person is responding to.

[Video Beagle]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:37 AM, J-from-Nucleon said:

/s

Well, that's a boring answer...I mean, Apple has all the money. Sony is always broke, looking for handouts from Disney...who has historical connections with Apple.

I think it means that Macs are about to be able play Playstation games natively. Let's put that in the rumormill!

[leadeater]

22 hours ago, hishnash said:

In the end the comparison of the entire package is what matters, if when you buy a zen platform you have no option but to have an AIO and RGB (strange) then that should be included in the power draw (you do have an option).  

Yep, that's why I said it good for device vs device not component vs component. Two different 6900HS aren't even the same all the time, so which one do you use, why and when?

 

If you want to figure out which is the best device/product to buy then you do and must compare the devices, looking at component vs component may or will get you the wrong conclusion if Device A allows 65W boost and 35W sustained and Device B allows 80W boost and 35W sustained, or Device C allows 80W boost and 45W sustained, and all use the same CPU model.

 

Advantage of the other side, Apple/Mac, you always know what you are getting, every time.

 

18 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Sure I was quoting you, and my comment was regarding something very similar to what you said and that nobody else have brought up, but my comment totally was not against you.

It was brought up, that WAS the reason I said it. You just may not have read that comment. Unawareness of something that was said != that thing not having been said. It's on page 6.

 

You came in to this, you don't seem to care why it started and what my objections actually are. Either you're one of them and talking up something that is in a way that it is not and cannot accept that something can just be better without spelling doom for everyone else in the market, literally nobody should ever want this, or you are not and seemingly over care about specific leads in particular ways more than I do. A lot of people just do not seem to care how both insufferable they come off and how silly they sound at the same time.

 

Do people go to the Olympics and tell everyone that got second place and back to give up and quit? They're all useless and cannot compete...

 

I already know you really aren't any of these so why are you here having this discussion now? I simply do not see a couple of watts difference and 20%-30% performance lead as something so earth shattering, not when there is a much stronger point around single core performance and efficiency or vastly better software to hardware utilization from Mac OS applications. Even if Apple SoC could run Windows (and ARM Windows weren't crap) it would suffer the same fate as Intel and AMD CPUs already do where a raft of features and optimizations go under used due to the nature of what the PC platform is (compared to Apple).

[LAwLz]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No it was brought up, that WAS the reason I said it. You just may not have read that comment. Unawareness of something that was said != that thing not having been said. It's on page 6.

Is this a response to me or are you responding to someone else right now?

I just want to make sure so that I don't incorrectly assume you are responding to me.

 

Could I perhaps recommend that if you want to reply to someone on page 6, maybe quote them? I find it rather confusing that you quote me and then between sentences start talking to someone else without giving any indication of doing so. That's not really how conversations usually go. 

It's kind of like having a conversation with someone, while having eye contact, and then without breaking the eye contact start talking to someone else in the middle of the conversation. The person you keep eye contact with will obviously be confused and think you are still talking to them. Especially if the subjects are very similar and the switch happens between two sentences, and you don't specify that you switched conversation partner.

 

Do you think the person you were replying to was aware that you suddenly started talking to them?

 

 

11 hours ago, leadeater said:

Yep, that's why I said it good for device vs device not component vs component. Two different 6900HS aren't even the same all the time, so which one do you use, why and when?

 

If you want to figure out which is the best device/product to buy then you do and must compare the devices, looking at component vs component may or will get your the wrong conclusion if Device A allows 65W boost and 35W sustained and Device B allows 80W boost and 35W sustained, or Device C allows 80W boost and 45W sustained, and all use the same CPU model.

 

Advantage of the other side, Apple/Mac, you always know what you are getting, every time.

It feels like you are deliberately trying to be obtuse right now and confusing.

Do you want to compare laptop vs laptop or CPU vs CPU? I don't think I am the only one who think you flip flop between the two whenever it suits you.

From a practical standpoint, comparing laptop vs laptop makes the most sense, but then we start getting into a lot of subjective things. MacOS vs Windows for example. Maybe we should lay out some ground rules and such when discussing Apple Silicon from now on? Specify exactly what we are talking about, if it's package, or platform, or specific component of the SoC, or whatever.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Is this a response to me or are you responding to someone else right now?

I just want to make sure so that I don't incorrectly assume you are responding to me.

Well the way I read it you were saying nothing like that had been said, I'm pointing out to you it had. Of course not saying you said it.

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Could I perhaps recommend that if you want to reply to someone on page 6, maybe quote them?

I have, before you joined. Again you came in, there are reason for why I may say things, reasons you may not have seen nor read.

 

Edit:

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do you think the person you were replying to was aware that you suddenly started talking to them?

If I wanted to talk to them then I would quote, the absence of that quote is all the hint you need as to my desire to talk to them.

  

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Maybe we should lay out some ground rules and such when discussing Apple Silicon from now on?

Easy, don't be a page 6 person. Done. Only rule required. A person and post you have agreed with, more than once. I do take notice of those things. You're quite often more than happy to hitch your wagon to that type of rhetoric, I do have the problem with that, you may have noticed.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It feels like you are deliberately trying to be obtuse right now and confusing.

Do you want to compare laptop vs laptop or CPU vs CPU? I don't think I am the only one who think you flip flop between the two whenever it suits you.

Oh come on, this is explained in this post and the post before, you either get it or you do not. There is no flip flopping at all. You know just as well as I do the dangers of device specific configurations when it comes to CPU operating parameters.

[Forbidden Wafer]

12 hours ago, HRD said:

it is better in macOS but compared to older intel macs the difference is huge. you can see this. the mac studio is using less than 4% of the power the mac pro uses while idling

Really amazing. 

[Paul Thexton]

45 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Do people go to the Olympics and tell everyone that got second place and back to give up and quit? They're all useless and cannot compete...

You just described a lot of YouTube commenters One in particular comes to mind where everything is either rainbow crapping awesomeness, or an earth shattering game over disaster. 

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

If I wanted to talk to them then I would quote, the absence of that quote is all the hint you need as to my desire to talk to them.

So you deliberately talked to people hoping that they would not understand that you were talking to them and hoping they would not reply?

I'm sorry but the more I read from your posts the more confused I get. What are you trying to achieve here exactly?

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Easy, don't be a page 6 person. Done. Only rule required. A person and post you have agreed with, more than once. I do take notice of those things. You're quite often more than happy to hitch your wagon to that type of rhetoric, I do have the problem with that, you may have noticed.

I honestly don't know how to react to this. The way you are acting is just absurd.

So when you said this:  

On 3/10/2022 at 4:40 PM, leadeater said:

P.S. Just stop taking comments and conversations so personally, not everything is about you and what you have said specifically  If you want to join in on a conversation that started from hype train BS then please keep the origin in mind, because I may well be comment on that not you. 

You actually meant "my arguments were in fact directed at you, because I looked up which posts you have clicked agree on and then want to argue against those comments with you"? 

So much for your arguments not being "about me"...

 

 

I went back to page 6 and looked at the posts I had reacted to and I don't really know which post you got so upset that I liked/agreed.

My guess is that it is this one:  

On 3/9/2022 at 9:59 AM, saltycaramel said:

LMG coverage of the event and the Mac Studio: it’s not a Steam Deck so let’s generally be debbie downers. 

 

The x86 PC industry (and its well connected tech influencers, like LMG) will not be able to keep the facade that this isn’t a shift of power in the making for much longer..I warned about this back when the M1 was dismissed as “it’s only about efficiency” and “glorified iPad” and giga-dies like the M1 Max and M1 Ultra were just fantasies and far fetched theories..now the time for reckoning is coming for x86 space heaters. 

 

I clicked agree on it because I think LTT's coverage of the M1 from the beginning has been kind of crappy, and I think ARM is going to replace x86 for a lot of things.

If we ignore the short term effect of covid-19, PCs are dying. Most people are satisfied with just having a phone these days. They don't want desktops or laptops anymore. Please note that I am talking about the general public here, not the average user of this forum.

For servers, I think more and more of it will move over to Arm based servers. We are already seeing a big trend towards this. Maybe not for on-prem, proprietary software, but for new software as well as cloud services.

[Dracarris]

31 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

If we ignore the short term effect of covid-19, PCs are dying. Most people are satisfied with just having a phone these days.

You at least need a tablet. Even the average person needs to work on a spreadsheet or Word doc once in a while, which is a royal PITA on a phone. 

[rikitikitavi]

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

You at least need a tablet. Even the average person needs to work on a spreadsheet or Word doc once in a while, which is a royal PITA on a phone. 

Unless you can samsung-dex-style it to a monitor, then it is a 'pc' without a pc.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

You at least need a tablet. Even the average person needs to work on a spreadsheet or Word doc once in a while, which is a royal PITA on a phone. 

Do they really though? 

 

Maybe if you work in an office, but I don't think most people use Word or Excel. 

Maybe I'm out of touch but none of my close relatives uses Office anymore. Once they stopped being in school that was basically it. 

[rikitikitavi]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do they really though? 

 

Maybe if you work in an office, but I don't think most people use Word or Excel. 

Maybe I'm out of touch but none of my close relatives uses Office anymore. Once they stopped being in school that was basically it. 

I believe the thought is more about the convenience of smth like a bigger screen and a kb, and not about the capabilities of a specific device/app.

 

Your John Doe might not need to use Word per se, but he might need a better way to update his resume/cover letter in a word processor on a bigger screen, or right a lengthy email, or track family budget, or be able to comfortably read/sign a PDF (even my granny receives some of her docs and such electronically).

 

I mean even browsing the internet is not completely optimized for small-screen-usability - compromises are made... and of course you have examples like the ad-full news/articles pages where half of the screen is already blocked.

[leadeater]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You actually meant "my arguments were in fact directed at you, because I looked up which posts you have clicked agree on and then want to argue against those comments with you"? 

So much for your arguments not being "about me"...

That comment and why I said it was not directed at your words (as in the post, you did not catch my drift), as I said. I'm just telling you right now, and before, to be completely open that comments like that and the worse ones that are going on now, and have been before, are highly ignorant, stupid and utterly out of touch. I personally find anyone like that or doing that to be massively insufferable. That is my warning to you that strongly siding with them, clicking agree, implying x86 is going away more than in reality tars you with that same brush, whether you like or care about that I don't know, I probably don't care to be frank either.

 

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

What are you trying to achieve here exactly?

What were YOU trying to achieve? To come off as the front line infantry for the Apple defense force? 

 

I make and will always make critical assessments of any product, especially ones I find interesting. You may not like or agree with what I say or my opinion on it, these opinions you already know. The short versions as a basis for this are; Firestorm archecture is excellent however not massively better archecture than Rocket Lake/Alder Lake or Zen 3, TSMC 5nm is a significant factor as to the overall success of M1 and Firestorm as these together make it what it is (see Rocket Lake/Cypress Cove vs Alder Lake/Golden Cove), power normalizing in both single core and multi core shows that the power efficiency difference is not so vast and no more than which can be gained by a similar silicon process shrink and archecture changes along with that which the shrink [can] allow for (yes performance decreases if doing that), vendors like Intel and AMD simply do not configure or want to place these types of power constraints on their products in some of these ways because it's not as important (to them and/or the consumer) as the raw performance is and is thus deemed as required for market competitiveness (if were so important AMD for example would not allow 28W package power for single core and instead limit to ~10W or ~5W-6W on the core with only a ~30% performance regression), there are and have been large gains in efficiency from Intel (Golden Cove) and AMD (Zen3+) which just shows how much possibility there is to make these types of gains and simply going from Zen3 to Zen3+ yields in some cases double the on battery run time without a full node shrink, the success of M1's is not solely from how good they are and that comes also from Apple's efforts with Mac OS and applications including development tools and frameworks so M1's in the PC space wouldn't be as successful as they are shifting aside ARM vs x86 for this statement.

 

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

If we ignore the short term effect of covid-19, PCs are dying

Personally I would not call year over year reductions in a few percent for a few years as dying, not at all. But I guess you are free to make that assessment. 

 

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Most people are satisfied with just having a phone these days. They don't want desktops or laptops anymore. Please note that I am talking about the general public here, not the average user of this forum.

Partly yes, partly no. Desktops that is for sure nowhere near as wanted and that's been the case for more than a decade, there is still a massive market for laptops. I agree most people will quite often be fine with a smart phone to do many things however they will at times have a need for a computer, maybe that can or is being meet with a non personal computer. It is still largely true and will be the case that the majority of homes in the countries we live in will have at least one computer/laptop.

 

More and more education is requiring computers, more young people than ever have laptops and will be using those for a very long period of their lives and a smart phone cannot replace this.

 

The smart phone market has been growing for very long time during the same time the PC/laptop market was growing and also when it was not. 7 years of market stagnation or at times reduction just doesn't spell dying to me and some of those years were during silicon shortages and other problems. There were a good number of years where Intel had significant problems supplying the market and both HP and Dell directly attributed that to a reduction in their QoQ and YoY sales, and they made that statement more than once.

 

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

For servers, I think more and more of it will move over to Arm based servers. We are already seeing a big trend towards this. Maybe not for on-prem, proprietary software, but for new software as well as cloud services.

For some services yes or maybe, for a lot of things no. We already have a lot of SaaS and PaaS services and these are underpinned by x86 focused software, tools and support knowledge for a change to ARM is not as simplistic or a given. This is particularly the case when EPYC is offering so much for very compelling prices, compared to Intel Xeon historic prices. In fact Xeon prices have largely halved in price so are much more attractive then even they used to be. Competition is great!

 

I think you place a lot of talk and buzz around ARM servers as a much stronger trend than it actually is. ARM servers are for sure happening but realistically not that much is moving to them. Biggest gains here I see are for web servers, cache servers, network appliances/servers/SDN, firewall appliances/servers, storage servers/SDS, HPC GPU compute. Even so a lot of these will likely stay on x86 to some degree as well. If there is shared hardware platforms going on you can get more utilizations and more uses cases on to x86 hardware than you can ARM, currently and even medium future.

 

What I personally like most about ARM in server market is the ability to create custom products for a purpose and get huge benefits in performance and efficiency from that. Take Fortigate firewalls for example, the only way and reason they get such high performance is from FortiASICs but you can achieve the same in a commodity server running ARM if there is an ARM offering that has applicable ASICs in it which can be done at low(er) costs and those ASICs wouldn't be exclusive to just that one use case or stuck in a propriety vendor hardware product i.e. Fortinet. If those companies weren't so heavily focus on corporate/enterprise then I would be saying ARM is a much bigger threat to them along the lines of what people seem to think it is for x86 which I just don't agree with. If public cloud vendors actually used those types of hardware, they do not, then they would be some of the first things to go for ARM servers. And still even in public cloud we deploy Fortigate VM appliances for the same reasons we do on-prem.

[Dracarris]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Maybe if you work in an office, but I don't think most people use Word or Excel. 

Maybe I'm out of touch but none of my close relatives uses Office anymore. Once they stopped being in school that was basically it. 

So they never ever change jobs, never need to update their CV, write an application? Plus as @rikitikitavi has also pointed out, the experience you can get on a 5-7" screen is just limited by space, mobile versions of many websites suck ass and so on..

[Kilrah]

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So they never ever change jobs, never need to update their CV, write an application? Plus as @rikitikitavi has also pointed out, the experience you can get on a 5-7" screen is just limited by space, mobile versions of many websites suck ass and so on..

A lot of things people used to use spreadsheets or word processors for nowadays have dedicated apps that just require a few taps to select items and fields to fill with a couple of words for the details, then you tap a button and it generates the whole document from a template... when it's not done by just filling a form on a webpage.

 

I couldn't get myself to do much on exclusively a mobile device either, but we're clearly not the norm anymore and most average people I see doing such stuff are actually more likely to be fumbling on their mobile for 20 minutes when it could be done in 2 on a PC... because their PC is off and it'll take them 5-10 minutes just to start it up, open the right applications and... remember how it works since they haven't used it in weeks/months 

 

[rikitikitavi]

4 hours ago, Kilrah said:

A lot of things people used to use spreadsheets or word processors for nowadays have dedicated apps that just require a few taps to select items and fields to fill with a couple of words for the details, then you tap a button and it generates the whole document from a template... when it's not done by just filling a form on a webpage.

Find an app, use a template... sounds like too much work... sounds very progressive... if only I had a tech-savvy relative to help me out right this moment... oh well I guess I'll just find a scratch-paper type app on my device and will do it old-fashioned way. Hey, maybe your folks approach it differently :)

Of course a youngster probably operates differently... or do they?!

 

4 hours ago, Kilrah said:

I couldn't get myself to do much on exclusively a mobile device either, but we're clearly not the norm anymore and most average people I see doing such stuff are actually more likely to be fumbling on their mobile for 20 minutes when it could be done in 2 on a PC... because their PC is off and it'll take them 5-10 minutes just to start it up, open the right applications and... remember how it works since they haven't used it in weeks/months 

And here comes the tablet - same interface as their phones, probably copy-pasted setup too, just bigger screen, so they don't have to spend half of their time just scrolling up and down.

 

As you said, their pc is somewhere else, probably at the desk or tucked away in the cupboard (they probably already forgot how to use it), while their phone and a tablet might always lay on their coffee table in front of them (personal example).

[saltycaramel]

On 3/12/2022 at 3:16 AM, leadeater said:

implying x86 is going away

 

Never personally implied x86 is going “away”.

 

I would be ok with a shift of power that sees

- eventually 50% of the PCs sold in the USA being ARM Macs, in the ballpark of the market share of iPhones

- the next decade of Apple being constantly on top of the PC SoC game just like they did last decade in the smartphone/tablet space

- laughing at the early attempts by tech pundits to keep a facade that this isn’t happening just like we now laugh at the early “iPhone killers”

 

That would be plenty enough for me

 

Of course it may never happen and this isn’t a super-informed deep dive strategic analysis from a professional consultant service, just a throw-away comment on a forum which may or may not be somewhat hyperbolic in some of its parts: likers/agreers beware!