LTT and Tesla

[airborne spoon]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, Caroline said:

You shouldn't be subjected to examination and tracked by a private company every time you drive your car and that's the end of it.

Correct which is why you opt out if you don't want the car to log anything

On 11/17/2021 at 11:23 PM, Sarra said:

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

A few things to unpack on this one

First the car does not transmit any of the logs/data about the car via cell towers its only over Wi-Fi. Yes i know because if i disconnect the Wi-Fi from my car for a couple weeks then turn it back on there is a huge spike of activity that i can monitor on my router. Whereas on a daily basis there is hardly any activity because it only sends a smidge of data. The car can connect to the mothership via cell towers but that is more of a "is there any updates available?" rather than "here's my logs".

 

Second when you say don't provide logs to tesla it also disables a couple of things like traffic monitoring on the navigation which really sucks because the traffic avoidance nav is super amazing and works wonders.

 

If I buy a tesla from Tesla and i buy the FSD option then i sell the car back to tesla some years later and tesla disables FSD before selling the car again, while this is a bit of a dick move they are well within their rights to modify a vehicle before selling it again. Now if I was to have sold that same car to a random dealership and they sold it to someone else and tesla then decides to disable FSD while they are in for a routine service appt that is a no-go and is illegal since the car was sold to the customer with FSD and the original sale documents don't prohibit the sale of the car or the disabling of features if the car is sold. This is why several people have taken tesla to small claims court to get their crap reenabled because tesla removed it illegally.

 

Cars are moving to the same as video games with the DLC bullshit. No longer do you just buy a game and you're done with it. Like Destiny 2 i paid $70 for the game and now in feb some of the content i paid for will be removed and i will have to pay at least another $25 for the new content. Car companies are seeing this and noticing that people will pay if you make it so its super inconvenient to not pay the cost and if its a small cost most people will go with t a monthly fee like $10 for premium connectivity in tesla's, which enables unlimited 4G data and traffic routing. Luckily i have a 2014 so i get free premium connectivity and free unlimited supercharging which is reason #73298 why I'll never sell this car.

[Catt0s]

in planes"autopilot" doesn't ACTUALLY do much, it just maintains/changes heading, pitch, speed on a pre-programed set of parameters. Then there is TCAS, which just gets a beacon from other planes, and then the systems agree on a solution. Tesla Autopilot on the other hand, reacts live to everything. So saying the name autopilot is misleading is only an argument because in movies they do everything

 

Quote

MJ711 -- pretty sure the new carbo planes can auto land

kind of? like, dont get me wrong, the F-22 raptor can actually do stuff a lot closer to Tesla autopilot, but in passenger planes, the auto-landing basically just maintains your descent path, some may be able to to auto-thrust reversers, but the runway ahs to be equipped with certain technologies, as does the plane, and the plane can't actually react to things like another plane being on the runway

 

 

[Quackers101]

a lot of issues around automatic systems, but some are just great to have or if it's a mixed reality setup with "cheating with assist enabled"... "please ban cheater"

also in the air, it's pretty straight forward, until it changes drasticly.

 

Also for planes, automation on the runway, and control of weather + wind speed. Don't want the wind to make you crash right before landing or takeoff. also planes vary so differently in control per plane, big or small. At least that is something an AI can be trained at and know the load limit a lot better (sorta) for the plane. Still mistakes could be made.

[wanderingfool2]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:56 AM, Sarra said:

If I actually wanted an EV, I would buy a vehicle I like, and convert it myself. I understand the expense of such, but that way I can expend money on things like extended range, more torque, AWD, and the like, while not supporting a company that spent a large chunk of it's billion dollar R&D budget on deciding that $10/month for heated seats was a good idea.

BMW is the rental one.  Tesla, it's there, but the justification is that it's a single SKU (simplifying production).  It's also only a $300 option, which is pretty decent when you compare to add heated seats to my current vehicle is $1300.

 

Does it add to the cost of the vehicle to people who aren't purchasing it?  Yes, but it's still important to understand that it's not as black and white as people make it out to be.

 

Examples being, Linus has said on multiple occasions [paraphrasing here] "Without subsidies Tesla would be losing money on every vehicle being sold" [which is a red herring] but also points out that for the price the fit and finish isn't there.  EV vehicles are costly to make, which is why for the price you don't get the same fit and finish (or at least before Tesla started their gigacasting).  *A note as well about the subsidies, Tesla has gotten less subsidies than the other car manufacturers and has repaid the loans which the other car manufacturers hasn't.  The "losing money without subsidies" also assumes that the added price without the credit wouldn't be selling as well...which would be false as the price has risen and there is demand reaching 8 months out on some models...so it's safe to say they could have sold vehicles to maintain the same profit they have*

 

FSD's name is what I have the biggest issue with at the moment, as it's not really good enough to fit it's name...but I do get where they are coming from (in the sense of not wanting to rebrand it to something else).

 

Autopilot, I don't think is too much of an issue in terms of the name.  As you have things like Blue Cruise, which unlike Autopilot and even FSD actually advertises that you don't need your hands on the wheel...btw for those wondering Blue Cruise is incapable of taking tighter highway corners.

 

I do agree with the original post that Linus does seem to have a negative bias towards Tesla.

 

For those who keep saying "Vehicle as a service" was invented by Tesla, OnStar was a paid service well before Tesla, Toyota charged $25/year for the onboard map nav. (actually, I think most of the car manufacturers at one stage or another did that).

 

Hate Tesla for "broken" promises, fine, I agree with that (but be realistic after the first time hearing "it's going to be in a year", you are only to blame the next time).  It's been known that Musk essentially goes on the most optimistic timelines.

 

People get labelled as Tesla fanboys, and I do agree that there are some very vocal Tesla fans that believe anything or will defend anything, but at the same time there is a whole lot of misinformation that is spread by the opposing side and after constantly having to argue points that are wrong you can realize why some people don't want to admit faults.

[Sarra]

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

For those who keep saying "Vehicle as a service" was invented by Tesla, OnStar was a paid service well before Tesla,

Yes, but OnStar had an entire set of components separate from your vehicle: A call center, staffed by real people, who would initiate a call to the vehicle occupants in the event of a crash, and if requested, or unable to get in contact with them, contact a 911 dispatch center and have emergency aid sent to the vehicle's location.

 

This is a HUGE difference compared to having to pay $10 a month to have your heated seats function, or the intermittent setting on your wipers function, or a self-driving feature.

 

OnStar adds value that you otherwise would not have, whereas, Tesla is literally locking features your vehicle already has behind a paywall. They are literally removing value from your vehicle, then telling you to pay up to get that value back.

[wanderingfool2]

7 hours ago, Sarra said:

Yes, but OnStar had an entire set of components separate from your vehicle: A call center, staffed by real people, who would initiate a call to the vehicle occupants in the event of a crash, and if requested, or unable to get in contact with them, contact a 911 dispatch center and have emergency aid sent to the vehicle's location.

 

This is a HUGE difference compared to having to pay $10 a month to have your heated seats function, or the intermittent setting on your wipers function, or a self-driving feature.

 

OnStar adds value that you otherwise would not have, whereas, Tesla is literally locking features your vehicle already has behind a paywall. They are literally removing value from your vehicle, then telling you to pay up to get that value back.

And it's this kind of post that I was exactly talking about.  Where people spout out stupid falsehoods.  So let me be clear, given 2 people already corrected you

 

TESLA DOES NOT OFFER $10 a MONTH HEATED SEATS.  Tesla offers $300 for the purchase of heated seats.  Oh and guess what, Teslas send a report when in a major crash and Tesla attempts to call the driver to see if they are okay and need help.  [My guess is it's going to expand to them calling 911 as well when they detect using the cameras there is a major crash and occupants are unresponsive].  With the heated seats as well, they worked having it into all vehicles vs SKU as a cost analysis.  They figured enough people will buy heated seats to justify putting it in all vehicles (as opposed to having 2 skus of the same vehicle, which costs more than just adding in an heated seat option).

 

Have an option to purchase "FSD" is a valid cost for Tesla...they literally are spending billions in R&D/hardware to do it.  Also the feature that comes stock on all vehicles is still leaps and bounds ahead of the competitors (even blue cruise, which is a $100/year subscription).  So yea, they didn't invent vehicles as a service.

[Sandro Linux]

I feel that Tesla track users too much and they are always over-promising on what they can actually deliver. It isn't good to make a product call "Full Self Driving" but never actually give the feature to the consumer who paid for it because by the time it is ready many teslas which would have got the update would have already been scrapped (even more so because of the fact that Tesla isn't very open to third party repairs). Arguably, you could give them the Facebook and Apple treatment.

[wanderingfool2]

8 hours ago, Sandro Linux said:

It isn't good to make a product call "Full Self Driving" but never actually give the feature to the consumer who paid for it

See what you said here is a really valid point, and this line of argument is something that should be brought up, because it really is a valid point.  Slightly do argue that FSD was introduced in 2019 (so about 3 years), as an option.  (I think the enhanced autopilot they were selling before vehicles do meet what they were claiming...could be wrong though)  It's not great that they haven't been able to deliver yet, and by the looks of FSD beta, it's probably still another year out from full release.  So on that front, yea Tesla sucks at that.

 

With that said addressing the rest of your comments; it's a bit of a tricky situation that Tesla is in in regards to when repairs are needed on the battery pack.  As can be seen with the entire Bolt fleet recall, seemingly small changes to batteries engineering and how it's handled can cause massive consequences...and at this stage a Tesla fire gets headline attention, so I can see why Tesla is hesitant in providing parts for internal battery components.

 

The other components, like headlamps, front bumpers, etc can be bought on the third party market and fixed yourself...albeit they keep changing the design so you need to make sure you chose the right one (mainly to streamline parts, and slowly fix the fit and finish issues).

 

A key to always remember, for the price point, it's pretty hard to beat it with any other EV.  Only one that really is worth considering is the Mach-e, which arguably I think is an actual competitor to the Tesla Model Y....a major difference though being that recently, due to demand, the depreciation value on the Model Y actually is negative (like a few people have had their vehicle totaled and ended up getting more money than they paid for their vehicle)...because Teslas do not depreciate like normal vehicles.

[Sandro Linux]

23 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

See what you said here is a really valid point, and this line of argument is something that should be brought up, because it really is a valid point.  Slightly do argue that FSD was introduced in 2019 (so about 3 years), as an option.  (I think the enhanced autopilot they were selling before vehicles do meet what they were claiming...could be wrong though)  It's not great that they haven't been able to deliver yet, and by the looks of FSD beta, it's probably still another year out from full release.  So on that front, yea Tesla sucks at that.

 

With that said addressing the rest of your comments; it's a bit of a tricky situation that Tesla is in in regards to when repairs are needed on the battery pack.  As can be seen with the entire Bolt fleet recall, seemingly small changes to batteries engineering and how it's handled can cause massive consequences...and at this stage a Tesla fire gets headline attention, so I can see why Tesla is hesitant in providing parts for internal battery components.

 

The other components, like headlamps, front bumpers, etc can be bought on the third party market and fixed yourself...albeit they keep changing the design so you need to make sure you chose the right one (mainly to streamline parts, and slowly fix the fit and finish issues).

 

A key to always remember, for the price point, it's pretty hard to beat it with any other EV.  Only one that really is worth considering is the Mach-e, which arguably I think is an actual competitor to the Tesla Model Y....a major difference though being that recently, due to demand, the depreciation value on the Model Y actually is negative (like a few people have had their vehicle totaled and ended up getting more money than they paid for their vehicle)...because Teslas do not depreciate like normal vehicles.

The Porsche Taycan is good as well

[RasmusDC]

i actually don´t think Musk is a bad person, i think he is extremely introverted and a genius, he is not a Bezos, he actually want to do something incredible.

 

Personally i however an NOT a Tesla fan, i have a Model 3 LR from 2021, i am willing to throw that car in the lake if i was not on a company agreement, the ... worst.. car... i.. have... ever.. had.. in the 25 years i have had my drivers license, not only in regards to quality, but actually also tech.. which on the surface seems.. NICE (it dots all the "fields" but everything feels like it is from the cheaper part the shelves of the dollar store)

[wanderingfool2]

26 minutes ago, Sandro Linux said:

The Porsche Taycan is good as well

The vehicle itself is good, but the pricing compared to Tesla's is crazy different which is why I don't really consider it as another EV competing at the same pricepoint.

 

*Prices in CAD*

Taycan (cheapest I saw quickly on website): $119k (346 km)

Tesla (cheapest): $60k (430 km) [Comparison sake, the S at $121k has a range of 604 km]

Mach-e: $50k (355 km)

Bolt: $38k (unsure, couldn't really find the range for the cheap model..but 415km "up to" number...but that might be the expensive model) [Either way their batteries are questionable...given they just recalled like 95% of their EV fleet this year)

 

The Taycan really doesn't fit into the same category...you are paying for looks with it really.

 

45 minutes ago, RasmusDC said:

Personally i however an NOT a Tesla fan, i have a Model 3 LR from 2021, i am willing to throw that car in the lake if i was not on a company agreement, the ... worst.. car... i.. have... ever.. had.. in the 25 years i have had my drivers license, not only in regards to quality, but actually also tech.. which on the surface seems.. NICE (it dots all the "fields" but everything feels like it is from the cheaper part the shelves of the dollar store)

Oh, did you get one with a yoke?  That is the design choice I hated the most (well, I hated the concept that they didn't use physical buttons for that).

 

Maybe I've had a different experience from you, from my experience (aside from the fit and finish of the exterior like panel alignments) it's better than the typical cars I get to drive.  The infotainment was miles ahead of any other vehicle that I've really experienced recently (especially Toyota, which really stands out as using dated tech. in the vehicle).

[RasmusDC]

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

.......

 

Oh, did you get one with a yoke?  That is the design choice I hated the most (well, I hated the concept that they didn't use physical buttons for that).

 

Maybe I've had a different experience from you, from my experience (aside from the fit and finish of the exterior like panel alignments) it's better than the typical cars I get to drive.  The infotainment was miles ahead of any other vehicle that I've really experienced recently (especially Toyota, which really stands out as using dated tech. in the vehicle).

Nope, a stock Model 3 LR 2021.....  i guess it also is a part of .. "what you are used too" i came from a European B8 Passat Variant from 2017 i had from new, the B8 is a newer edition than the old one that still drives in the US... i ´m not a big fan of VW, although we also have a 2019 Polo GTI, but it was a decent car, with the "measly" 1.4 TSI but fully loaded.

 

so why am i not happy with the Tesla, well first of all here in Denmark we have 3 service centers, so 70km each way each time i have an issues.. and it has had plenty, done 18k km in it..

 

* Crooked steering wheel (from new) 4 wheel realigment did not solve car being really poor to drive at speeds, 1 new tire, but had to go external for a real realigment

* car was FILLED with black hands, had to be completely cleaned

* Wireloom sticking up with rear seats (Tesla - Can´t you just tuck them in)

* Rear hatch adjustment - Rear doors adjustment, front door adjustment

* lots of repainting mostly with "brush" hidden

* multiple other small naggles that i just gave into

 

Now comes the living with it

* New Chargeport

* Rear windows defroster dead (i guess from new)

* Rear hatch aligment - AGAIN, began to "EAT other parts of the metal"

* Front seat CRACKS highly in backward position (tesla fix.....do not use the back 1 cm of seat adjustment nice when you are 1.93 at least under 85 kg)

 

next service time

* new rear window (hope it is just a contact)

* New right side camera module

* New fan for battery (VIBRATION insane here when it got cold, and it began to run full speed)

* New rear tail lights

* New Hatch motor (i guess it broke with all the alignment, so it just will not open all the time)

* i also have a passenger window, that will not seal, i can get it to work if i do NOT use windows when driving.

 

Now these are like 1/3 of the incidents with the car.. that is just the "defects" and if i forget all about these. then.. (and i have had 3 Tesla Model 3´s while mine was getting repaired, this is the norm the below things)

 

* i do not have autopilot, since it is useless in Europe, HOWEVER i used adaptive cruise a LOT, but it is UNUSABLE in the Tesla, it captures every other sign on freeway offramps, and just BRAKES from 130 to 30 in the middle of the freeway, last night 10-20 times on a 100km trip

* sign recognition fails constantly

* Auto wipers are close to useless, in SUN it runs, guess it is camera operated, and in "light rain" it does not start, it would be fine if it had EASY wiper settings to get to but it doesen´t, i can click the left stem to get single wipe, and i have to do it CONSTANTLY.

* WHO decided to source the autodimming mirrors, so the INSTANCE it goes dark, they all just turn to DIM.. now i´m used to them being reactive to light, even on the old Kia Ceed or my REALLY old Altea, so you actually could use the mirrors when you did not have any light sources.. but NO.

* tire noise is just abysmal, i´m running on wihter TS870P and the summer is the Sport Michelin things that were on it.

* not a good car for long distance running, just to jittery, and vibrations are a lot in that car, again having driven multiple..

 

i LIKE the battery, it has plenty of range, i can easily go 500km+ on a charge, even 600 if i do 80-90km/h and it is 20 degrees. and i have learned to love the value of an electric car, just NEVER tesla, NEVER again..

 

we have a small company group of Tesla owners, and to be honest, even the "defects" are common standards between us, i guess starting the Berlin factory and getting Chinese cars will solve a lot of this, since this is normal worksmanship from americans (funny how if you treat your employees as slaves, you actually get poor quality (this is not meant as a "tesla" thing but gust american worklaws in standard)

 

[wanderingfool2]

9 hours ago, RasmusDC said:

we have a small company group of Tesla owners, and to be honest, even the "defects" are common standards between us, i guess starting the Berlin factory and getting Chinese cars will solve a lot of this, since this is normal worksmanship from americans (funny how if you treat your employees as slaves, you actually get poor quality (this is not meant as a "tesla" thing but gust american worklaws in standard)

Yea, the Berlin factory should create some spectacular vehicles there...since they are using the newer giga casting (so the body work should align better as it's a solid frame...we will see).  Then again, the opponents of Tesla are creating massive roadblocks for the facility (to the point the building has been delayed by almost a year now, because they keep having to wait for approvals).  Although, if it's a 2021 model, chances are it from the Chinese Giga plant (from my understanding since 2020 is when they started shipping from there)

 

I'm always a bit hesitant on the discussion of "employees as slaves", as I've found that sometimes a vocal few can change the entire perception.  Like last time there were articles with the claim of "overworked", "forced overtime", and yet the released stats showed employees were working an average of 43 hours a week.  Additionally, when comparing salaries it often doesn't factor in union dues, and stock options.  Actually a good example of this kind of thing, I was working a company that "merged" and a few of the employees who moved into the union actually earned "less" after the dues were taken (despite being promised they would get paid more).

 

The final alignment and such is more of a result of the way the body was built though, which is why the giga press should fix that part up (1 or 2 mm tolerances before to micron level tolerances on the frame add up to a lot when spread across the length of a vehicle).

 

10 hours ago, RasmusDC said:

i LIKE the battery, it has plenty of range, i can easily go 500km+ on a charge, even 600 if i do 80-90km/h and it is 20 degrees. and i have learned to love the value of an electric car, just NEVER tesla, NEVER again..

So, just want to ask, as I'm from NA so def. a different experience, how is the charging situation over there?  As here, the superchargers make a huge difference.

 

Curious though, what other options do you really have for EV's? [Although, I guess in UK with the autopilot and stuff not being as good I can see how that takes a large chunk away from it]  There is the Mach-e, which admittedly is a good competitor, but other than that there aren't too many other options that have good range, at a reasonable price.

Bolt's - battery issues (LG chem)

Leafs - massive battery derogation

Kona - battery issues (LG chem)

 

Mach-e is really the only real competitor (and for a guy like myself, the features Tesla has makes it a clear winner...but admittedly for others like yourself I totally get it and see why Mach-e could be the clear winner for you).  Really though, in my mind there are really only Tesla or Mach-e (either choice fitting your usecase).