Linus his Linux challange

[one-riff]

Lately i have seen a lote of LMG Clips about Linus his Linus challenge and it's a kind of torcher to let us wait till the te real serie is comming online. thill then here is a list of clips that you can watch for you amusement:

 

 

 

My first thoughts on Installing Linux
 

Rules for our Linux challenge

 

I'm learning a lot about the Linux Community...

 

Gaming on Linux has been... interesting...

 

Did Linus CHEAT during the Linux challenge??

 

I have NOT had a stable Linux experience

 

My kids HATE the Linux challenge

 

Should Linux be more user friendly?

My reaction to this video whould be:

Quote

I think most users using Linux professionals are liking the text interface for one reason only. I do think this is actually the case and is due to the filosofie "everything is a file". It is much easier to communicate "open file xyz, search for option 'qwe' and alter it to 'zxc', save the file and reload the service" instead of describing the exact window you need to open, explain the tab you need to see and then edit option 'qwe' to the value ‘zxc’ to accomplice the thing you want in a graphical user interface. This can be considered a feather because most of the time every part of the instruction can be copied and past. Yes i agee when you not completely understanding what your doing this is not user friendly. From the other side, even more advanced settings in Windows are done in this way, for example: Did you know that it is possible to limit memory and core usage in WSL2 by just placing a file? this is ‘t user friendly either . (https://itnext.io/wsl2-tips-limit-cpu-memory-when-using-docker-c022535faf6f)

 

It's realy a torture to wait the searies are comming online, I can't wait and i think it will be realy fun. What are you thoughts on the teasers? And the series? Please discuss them here.

 

Edit:

 

Part one: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 and Should you stick to Windows for gaming?

[emosun]

I think they are going to discover what ive been saying about linux for years.....

 

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

[one-riff]

. II can't believe people are willing to exclude other people to enter a ecosysteem system based on knowledge available, this should not be a argument.

[Eigenvektor]

9 minutes ago, emosun said:

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

I don't think that's a fair assessment. There are certainly elitist people who don't want Linux to become mainstream, but I doubt most of them are in a position to actively prevent it.

 

The reality is far more simple. Linux has no overarching goal, design philosophy or command structure like a company does. Since it is open source, anyone can work on or contribute to whatever they like. And writing documentation is not exactly the thing developers like to do. Designing a good and intuitive UI is also not the easiest job in the world, especially if you don't have the budget to test things with focus groups etc.

 

Add to the mix that a lot of companies don't exactly want to contribute when it comes to Linux support of their software or drivers. Of course driver development isn't made easier by the fact that the kernel developers are unwilling to commit to a stable driver ABI. So there's a lot of reverse engineering going on, on whatever hardware people have handy and are willing to experiment on.

 

There are certainly professional Linux developers how are in a paid position. But those mostly work for companies doing development for servers, so gaming and desktop users aren't their primary goal either.

[emosun]

23 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

There are certainly elitist people who don't want Linux to become mainstream

 

24 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

And writing documentation is not exactly the thing developers like to do. Designing a good and intuitive UI is also not the easiest job in the world,

 

25 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

kernel developers are unwilling to commit to a stable driver ABI.

 

26 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

But those mostly work for companies doing development for servers, so gaming and desktop users aren't their primary goal either.

 

55 minutes ago, emosun said:

people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses

 

[one-riff]

So all the quotes are suggesting that user experience is not a priority because in professional 

time this is where all the contributions are happening. Gaming and other leisure time stuff is indeed not a real priority which i can understand. Still, I hope in the near future some of the machined usability features will be solved by either professional or home users. Maybe Linus will start implementing his vision but others and me not excluding .

[norgaladir]

A good analogy is if you're driving and have to pull over due to car problems. You can either 1) Pay for a service to come help you 2) Learn how to fix your car problems you self 3) Hope some good Samaritan pulls over to help you. It is the same with your computer.

 

Now if you're paying for the OS, (Windows/Mac), like a new car, you hope it won't break often (otherwise what are you paying for?) or you might be able to get some support out of them. However if you don't like what they're offering (cost, privacy/freedom, ethical reasons regarding open source, etc), unfortunately they have the majority of the market (and since they're big companies, they want to make money off of your data so privacy isn't always an option, even if you pay) so the only alternatives are something based on Linux, BSD, or something even more niche, which just like everything, all have their pros/cons over windows/mac.

 

Now if you're not paying, and you didn't put it together yourself, this is more like using a car that your buddy who likes making cars put together for you out of spare parts (small, niche distro), it's a nice gesture, and they'll do their best to help you when they can, but they have no obligation to help you. And since they put it together, they know how to use it, and it has already been mentioned that it takes time and resources that aren't as readily available to make stuff user friendly. Main stream distros, backed by companies will still let you use their product for free, but have paid support available, and will focus on fixing features/bugs that their largest customers ask for (they have to stay in business somehow). System76 is great because their product is more consumer focused so they've been making some great strides in user friendliness, but they have nowhere the resources as Microsoft, and here's hoping Valve can do something on this front with the Steam Deck. 

 

For people who complain about Linux being so fragmented, it's the same as anything else, why do we have competing operating systems in general? Why are there so many open source kernels? You just see it more with Linux than Windows/Mac because anyone can do it, and it's easier to using GNU/Linux as a starting point than starting from scratch. If you're an individual making things on your own time, you'll do what interests you either to learn, or to meet your own needs, or maybe recognition, your goals may or may not align with an already existing project (that you know of). As for companies, some do, like Pop is using Ubuntu after all, but with their own customizations on top to differentiate themselves and cater to their users, and anyone is free to improve upon those, or contribute back to them (if System76 agrees with and accepts the changes). Valve decided arch is a better fit for their users than Ubuntu, probably due to Arch being simpler (ie from a code standpoint and having less modifications to upstream), and having the latest packages, which you need for gaming on linux since it is changing so quickly.

[flindeberg]

3 hours ago, emosun said:

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

Eh? Could you define "the people/community"?

 

Have you confused "not caring about popularity" (agnostic towards the concept) with "hating popular people / things" (hating the concept)? Those Linux variants aimed at becoming popular to the broad masses, for example AOSP which is the most used operating system in the world, have become so. Most Linux variants aim at something else than broad popularity; for example Arch Linux aims at being stupidly interoperable by avoiding distribution-specific changes, and succeeds massively in doing so.

 

It is not that the people behind Arch Linux do not want it to become popular, it is just that it is quite secondary to maintaining interoperability.

 

Look at it this way, if the Catholic church where to intentionally expand to the Middle East; would you call out the Catholic church for still keeping to its guns that Jesus was the one true prophet as not wanting their church to become popular? Or do you think the Catholic church would adapt to local customs and beliefs to become more popular with the local crowd?

 

Isn't it nice that there are actually still people around who stand up for what they believe in, rather than looking to popularity for what they should believe in?

[emosun]

54 minutes ago, flindeberg said:

Most Linux variants aim at something else than broad popularity

 

 

5 hours ago, emosun said:

They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

 

[Eigenvektor]

9 hours ago, one-riff said:

So all the quotes are suggesting that user experience is not a priority because in professional 

time this is where all the contributions are happening. Gaming and other leisure time stuff is indeed not a real priority which i can understand. Still, I hope in the near future some of the machined usability features will be solved by either professional or home users. Maybe Linus will start implementing his vision but others and me not excluding .

Some quotes out of context don't make a good argument in my opinion. @emosun's initial point was that Linux isn't popular because people don't want it to be. This suggests some ulterior motive; people actively working towards making it unpopular, and I don't think that's a fair assessment. In fact it feels outright insulting to anyone contributing.

[emosun]

11 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

This suggests some ulterior motive; people actively working towards making it unpopular,

 

17 hours ago, flindeberg said:

Most Linux variants aim at something else than broad popularity;

 

[riklaunim]

You can check distro reviews at https://www.dedoimedo.com/ and see that there are always some problems for the end users. Something doesn't work, something doesn't look properly and so on. And there is no state when such problems are fixed in the "next release" - each release is far from that state.

 

I got nouveau problems after fresh installs multiple times, like freezing XFCE on login manager. Only some distros solve this by either using a fallback generic driver by default and tell you to click a button so they have less legal things to worry about or use Nvidia driver straight away. Or manually installing some KDE packages because Ubuntu didn't listed dependencies properly and like all UI icons are missing. And AFAIK Linus is on Manjaro - if I recall correctly the installer can't handle EFI partition on it own, displaying an alert box with partition options to copy, go back and paste manually instead of doing it on it own like Ubuntus or Windows installers.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

6 hours ago, emosun said:

 

 

There is a huge difference between "not being able to prioritize features which would increase the distro's broader popularity" and "deliberately making your distro user-unfriendly to decrease its broader popularity". The latter is a very serious accusation / borderline conspiracy theory.

[Ubuntu is love]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:20 PM, emosun said:

They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt.

This is not true, specially not in the corporate environment. Systems (servers) that run windows get laugh at. But it's hard to get into for sure, especially if you are used to "click and drag" to change settings and that's also the same reason why it is so good to automate systems and make small changes that have a big impact.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

I already see that Linus is really frustrated with Linux, so, I don't think we will be excited to see the eventual videos. Also, it seems he expects a lot of hate from the community, which is, to be honest, not very fair. Linux people are not just a bunch of arrogant elitists who'll reply RTFM to any of your questions.

[emosun]

1 hour ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

Linux people are not just a bunch of arrogant elitists who'll reply RTFM to any of your questions.

Well they could have fooled me , im quite excited for them to learn the way I learned about linux biggest issue.

[Eigenvektor]

12 hours ago, emosun said:

This suggests some ulterior motive; people actively working towards making it unpopular,

Most Linux variants aim at something else than broad popularity;

Most does not mean all. Nor does having a different priority mean purposely making it unpopular. It is, at worst, a side effect of having a different goal.

 

The distributions most commonly used on the desktop (Ubuntu, Manjaro, Pop_OS!, …) are all "general purpose". You typically wouldn't use Windows Server on a desktop, so why would you, for example, want to use a distribution focused on information security.

[emosun]

4 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Most does not mean all.

Point to where I said all , a couple wendells and anthonys sprinkled in there aren't going to do much to turn around the whole community.

6 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Nor does having a different priority mean purposely making it unpopular.

So when the priority isn't popularity , it's a surprise that its not popular?

13 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

The distributions most commonly used on the desktop (Ubuntu, Manjaro, Pop_OS!, …) are all "general purpose". You typically wouldn't use Windows Server on a desktop, so why would you, for example, want to use a distribution focused on information security.

You seem to be mixing up the developers with the people who actually use it. I don't really recall saying general use developers are actively trying to make the os unusable

[Eigenvektor]

53 minutes ago, emosun said:

Point to where I said all , a couple wendells and anthonys sprinkled in there aren't going to do much to turn around the whole community.

I was referring to distributions, not people, since your qoute was about most Linux variants not being geared towards popularity.

 

Since you seem to prefer quoting other people's words without adding your own, don't blame me for drawing the wrong conclusions from that.

 

53 minutes ago, emosun said:

So when the priority isn't popularity , it's a surprise that its not popular?

It's not surprising that specialty distributions are not popular for general purposes. That's what desktop distributions are for.

 

53 minutes ago, emosun said:

You seem to be mixing up the developers with the people who actually use it. I don't really recall saying general use developers are actively trying to make the os unusable

You said Linux isn't popular because people don't want it to be, making no such distinction. I would say Linux isn't popular because people expect it to work exactly like Windows, despite it being a different OS, and refusing to put in any effort whatsoever when it comes to learning new things.

[emosun]

9 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

refusing to put in any effort whatsoever when it comes to learning new things.

See this is more or less what I was trying to squeeze out of you.

 

Its the superiority complex that the more unfavorable side of the community has that insists that the same people who quickly adapted smartphones in the past decade into their lives are not capable of using an OS that uses the same hardware but is somewhat different.

 

Its the mindset that a community needs to fall back on in order to explain the issue without blaming themselves. The old " theres nothing wrong with us its the entire world that has a problem" situation.

 

Ive found that the entire world quickly adapts to most changes. Which is noticeable mostly in mobile OS versions that are not like windows at all. At no real point would I consider all of planet earth to be more lazy or unwilling to learn than just me.

 

Anyway, I think this conversation has run its course to exactly where I knew it would go so ill end my involvement here and wait for the enevitable video explaining the same thing again.

[Giganthrax]

Eh, I don't think Linux devs don't want it to be popular on desktop. It's just that they don't have the resources to make it popular no matter what they do. 

 

As it's been shown in the past, to get mainstream success on desktop computers and smartphones, an OS needs to have the support of a massively rich company that has a vested interest in making it succeed. This enables them to perform the necessary R&D and create a product that actually meets the needs of their customers ie. the average desktop users. We've recently seen exactly this happen with ChromeOS, which is basically a Linux distro.

 

Any OS that requires its users to deliberately seek it out, make a bootable USB drive, use this drive to install the OS on their computers for daily use, and learn how to use it is by definition a niche OS. To have any hope of being accepted by the mainstream userbase, a desktop OS needs to be pre-installed on store-bought computers and phones, and have a user-friendly GUI that's intuitive enough for boomers and GenX people to figure out on their own. 

 

Based on extremely limited personal experience, I would say that ZorinOS and Linux Mint are almost there when it comes to being perfectly usable by the average desktop user. I believe this because I had a couple situations where colleagues of mine had to use my laptop for work while I wasn't at the office, and they had absolutely no problem getting work done even though it was their first time ever using Linux. If these distros came pre-installed on affordable machines, I'm pretty sure my colleagues would have no problem using them as their daily drivers for work (most of which is done inside a browser) and might even prefer them to Windows due to the reduced risk of viruses. 

[Alder Lake]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:01 PM, one-riff said:

Lately i have seen a lote of LMG Clips about Linus his Linus challenge and it's a kind of torcher to let us wait till the te real serie is comming online. thill then here is a list of clips that you can watch for you amusement:

 

 

 

My first thoughts on Installing Linux
 

Rules for our Linux challenge

 

I'm learning a lot about the Linux Community...

 

Gaming on Linux has been... interesting...

 

Did Linus CHEAT during the Linux challenge??

 

I have NOT had a stable Linux experience

 

My kids HATE the Linux challenge

 

Should Linux be more user friendly?

My reaction to this video whould be:

 

It's realy a torture to wait the searies are comming online, I can't wait and i think it will be realy fun. What are you thoughts on the teasers? And the series? Please discuss them here.

I don't have too many thoughts on the series, but I do have thoughts on your spelling

 

but for my thoughts on linux, I don't see it ever coming close to windows, mostly due to windows' user-friendliness

[riklaunim]

18 hours ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

so, I don't think we will be excited to see the eventual videos

If Linux is to succeed his experiences matter a lot. There is no point listening "how great Linux is" when it's obvious there are reason why for desktop it is super rare.

[Eigenvektor]

3 hours ago, emosun said:

See this is more or less what I was trying to squeeze out of you.

It was pretty clear from the start that this is where you were aiming. No other reason to make such a provocative statement otherwise, while at the same time refusing to actually participate in the discussion, other than out-of-context quotes open to interpretation. It's pretty clear that your mind is already made up and you're not actually interested in a meaningful discussion. Let's agree to disagree.

[maplepants]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:20 PM, emosun said:

They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

It is popular though. It's really popular. You can start up a cloud / VPS service that doesn't have Windows, macOS, FreeBSD, Solaris, or any of them. But if you're trying to run servers or sell servers and you're not offering Linux, you might as well not even be doing it.

 

Linux servers are extremely popular with business and home users. AWS made their own distro for people who wanted to run a RHEL based distro. On Graviton instances you can *only* run Linux and this isn't considered by anyone to a detriment to the product.

 

The Linux kernel has a massive number of corporate and hobbyist contributors constantly improving it. The tech rumour mill is full of speculation about Google making their own custom CPUs to compete with Graviton, and while there's lots of speculation about whether it'll be ARM or x86 there's absolutely no doubt that it'll run Linux.

 

I think you've got an uphill battle if you want to argue that Linux is unpopular.