Linus his Linux challange

[kumicota]

9 hours ago, emosun said:

See this is more or less what I was trying to squeeze out of you.

This isn't what him said, learning to use something new isn't something out of ordinary.

 

I don't disagree that Linux has a lot of UI/UX problems but you can't expect a Windows/Mac user who never used Linux to know how to do everything there without trying to learn.

 

A good example is this challenge, where Linus and iJustine changed sides where Linus(Mac) and iJustine(Windows) had to do a bunch of tasks on the system, iJustine become extremely lost in windows, if she went with the mentality that you are saying of not wanting to learn, she would say the same things that you're saying about linux but of windows, where it had a crappy UI, the community is shitty and goes on.

 

Linux has a lot to improve on the UI but learning is part of the process on everything

 

[HumbleProblems]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:20 PM, emosun said:

I think they are going to discover what ive been saying about linux for years.....

 

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

 

 

I take issue with collectively blaming on the linux community as a whole.  There are plenty of groups of people actively trying to make linux a better user experience, and now even companies like Valve, but the linux community is fragmented in way that means you can't simply treat linux like it's Windows, or even treat different linux distros as comparable to each other.

 

There are distros actively trying to make the user experience as easy as possible, like elementry os or Pop!_os.  Even using those distros, however, you won't find running unsupported games to be an easy experience, even if its possible.  Though I would ask, if some random stranger on the internet somehow made a compatibility layer for MacOS on Windows, but Final Cut Pro didn't work on it, would you lay the blame of that on Window?  It's really up to developers to decide what platforms they want to support, and when linux users come together to try to make it work for them anyway, that's a gift.  They aren't selling you anything, or usually asking for money at all, so why blame them for their efforts?  There isn't some singular linux company making all the apps that make up the different distros.  We are mostly just people spending our free time and good will to try to make it the best we can in our different corners of the internet.

 

I want it to be popular, and want to see these easy-to-use distros gain in popularity and support so they can continue to do just that.

 

13 hours ago, emosun said:

Anyway, I think this conversation has run its course to exactly where I knew it would go so ill end my involvement here and wait for the enevitable video explaining the same thing again.

 

This conversation doesn't come off as good faith if you simply declare your victory and walk away.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

7 hours ago, HumbleProblems said:

 

 

I take issue with collectively blaming on the linux community as a whole.  There are plenty of groups of people actively trying to make linux a better user experience, and now even companies like Valve, but the linux community is fragmented in way that means you can't simply treat linux like it's Windows, or even treat different linux distros as comparable to each other.

 

There are distros actively trying to make the user experience as easy as possible, like elementry os or Pop!_os.  Even using those distros, however, you won't find running unsupported games to be an easy experience, even if its possible.  Though I would ask, if some random stranger on the internet somehow made a compatibility layer for MacOS on Windows, but Final Cut Pro didn't work on it, would you lay the blame of that on Window?  It's really up to developers to decide what platforms they want to support, and when linux users come together to try to make it work for them anyway, that's a gift.  They aren't selling you anything, or usually asking for money at all, so why blame them for their efforts?  There isn't some singular linux company making all the apps that make up the different distros.  We are mostly just people spending our free time and good will to try to make it the best we can in our different corners of the internet.

 

I want it to be popular, and want to see these easy-to-use distros gain in popularity and support so they can continue to do just that.

 

 

This conversation doesn't come off as good faith if you simply declare your victory and walk away.

The problem with fragmentation is that a lot of Linux people honestly don't perceive it as a problem. They see it as a freedom of choice and very actively resist if some attempts at "defragmentation" of Linux are made (remember all that drama of systemd?). And I do get it, most people who come to Linux desktop because they want freedom from closed, proprietary, do-it-one-way ecosystems of Windows and MacOS, so, they cherich this Linux freedom... but it also means that all that little money and effort which goes to the development of Linux desktop is split into even tinier pieces.

 

Linux server is another story entirely. A s***ton of money is poured into both the kernel and enterprise-focused Linux distros, and the kernel development itself is not fragmented which makes Linux uncontested in the server space.

[emosun]

12 hours ago, HumbleProblems said:

I take issue with collectively blaming on the linux community as a whole.

I like that you added " whole " to make it seems like that was what I said. Thank god for the quote otherwise that might be percieved that way.

12 hours ago, HumbleProblems said:

This conversation doesn't come off as good faith if you simply declare your victory and walk away.

Its not a conversation when I'm talking to a wall that skims posts and thinks more about how they can spin words instead of reasoning or absorbing anything.

 

Ive learned on the ltt forums and especially when talking to the worse side of the linux community to not even bother trying after a while. And have been told to simply leave an argument rather than reply and fan the flames.

 

I literally dont want to bother replying to this thread but here I am being dragged back into this go nowhere conversation about a topic that already been beaten to death. So again, dont want to reply to this anymore , theres no discussion happening here , its not worth my time.

[norgaladir]

6 hours ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

The problem with fragmentation is that a lot of Linux people honestly don't perceive it as a problem.

Sure, efficiency is lost by splitting resources, but it's not really something solvable without some sort of governing body to control it. And even if there was, someone else would just start a new open operating system, or people would latch onto an existing one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_operating_systems 

 

This "fragmentation" is no more than human nature, differences arise naturally within groups as they get larger. Why are computer operating systems so fragmented? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operating_systems Why are there so many programming languages? Why are there so many human languages?

 

The "Linux" community is no more a cohesive, homogeneous group than any other collective, like Windows users, Mac users, Artists, Doctors, Engineers, etc, there will always be different ways to do things, and over time certain ways will come out ahead while others are left behind. Just as certain traits are weeded out via evolution, same goes for technologies, like systemd, and now like X11 vs Wayland, it's just a little slow, even Microsoft with their complete control over Windows isn't immune, look how long it took them to get people to migrate from Windows XP.

[HumbleProblems]

 

7 hours ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

The problem with fragmentation is that a lot of Linux people honestly don't perceive it as a problem. They see it as a freedom of choice and very actively resist if some attempts at "defragmentation" of Linux are made (remember all that drama of systemd?). And I do get it, most people who come to Linux desktop because they want freedom from closed, proprietary, do-it-one-way ecosystems of Windows and MacOS, so, they cherich this Linux freedom... but it also means that all that little money and effort which goes to the development of Linux desktop is split into even tinier pieces.

 

You are right, I don't perceive a problem with a fragmented linux ecosystem.  As i said, there are centralized projects dedicated to catering to new users in linux; so why would I want the entire community to simply follow the leader?  There should be sections of linux dedicated to the bleeding-edge, but I don't see those people leaving their communities to shit on the ones organized around new user experience, either.  My whole point is that we should stop talking the linux community like it homogeneous, because it's not.  Honestly, I think even the edges of the linux community, the ones who I think we are really talking about in this thread, would be just as happy that the largest majority of linux users stayed on new user distros, and those distros got the funding the continue improving, because that money will eventually trickle into their communities via upstream contributions.

 

The premise of this entire conversation was

Quote

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

 

This is the statement I think was fallacious.  Even the most hardcore arch-user would be elated to have more users on linux, regardless of the distro they use.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

14 hours ago, norgaladir said:

Sure, efficiency is lost by splitting resources, but it's not really something solvable without some sort of governing body to control it. And even if there was, someone else would just start a new open operating system, or people would latch onto an existing one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_operating_systems 

 

What about the Linux kernel though? It is highly centralized, and, even though the forks exist, over time they either disappear or get merged with the mainline kernel. So, if there was a stong person and a strong body behind desktop Linux (like Linus Torvalds and Linux foundation behind the Linux kernel), it would be possible to make the development more efficient without losing the open nature of the community.

[Mihle]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:04 PM, maplepants said:

It is popular though. It's really popular. You can start up a cloud / VPS service that doesn't have Windows, macOS, FreeBSD, Solaris, or any of them. But if you're trying to run servers or sell servers and you're not offering Linux, you might as well not even be doing it.

 

Linux servers are extremely popular with business and home users. AWS made their own distro for people who wanted to run a RHEL based distro. On Graviton instances you can *only* run Linux and this isn't considered by anyone to a detriment to the product.

 

The Linux kernel has a massive number of corporate and hobbyist contributors constantly improving it. The tech rumour mill is full of speculation about Google making their own custom CPUs to compete with Graviton, and while there's lots of speculation about whether it'll be ARM or x86 there's absolutely no doubt that it'll run Linux.

 

I think you've got an uphill battle if you want to argue that Linux is unpopular. 

I think the person you replied to was specifically about being popular on people laptops and desktops, not servers.... And on Laptops/desktops, very few run Linux.

[OldTweaker]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:37 PM, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

The problem with fragmentation is that a lot of Linux people honestly don't perceive it as a problem. They see it as a freedom of choice and very actively resist if some attempts at "defragmentation" of Linux are made (remember all that drama of systemd?). And I do get it, most people who come to Linux desktop because they want freedom from closed, proprietary, do-it-one-way ecosystems of Windows and MacOS, so, they cherich this Linux freedom... but it also means that all that little money and effort which goes to the development of Linux desktop is split into even tinier pieces.

As a long time Linux user, I would like it if more people would switch, but it is not that important to have this at all cost. For one, I would not want to loose the freedom and choice that comes with all the different distros. If the way to get people to switch is to make it more Windows like, than indeed no thank you. 
Linux is different, that comes with a learning curve. If you want it to be exactly the same, please keep using Windows. If it takes loosing what is better on Linux, so that the experience is more familiar, I'd rather keep things the way they are. I don't mind changes that make it easier to switch as long as the good things are not sacrificed. In fact the diversity helps in that respect. That way some distros can be geared more to people coming from a Windows system whilst others can be totally different. Also I don't think it is that necessary, lots of people moved to Apple and Apple certainly doesn't follow the Windows paradigm. 

 

I don't think that if for some reason they could force it that only one distro remains, this would mean all the devs would go over to that one distro. Many would simply loose interest. They are involved exactly because they can just do something else. And we would loose some innovation as well as it is now much easier to just try something.
What defragmentation would help for though is for hardware and software suppliers to start supporting Linux. Especially in the software world. It is harder to target these different distros than just one. Although that is getting to be less and less a problem. These days you see many supply just a .deb and a .rpm. They work for most distros. Also this is why flatpacks and snaps are favored. All the dependencies in one container and they work in practically any distro that supports those.

 

As to the learning curve, having been on Linux for over 20 years, if I now have to do stuff on Windows I too have a learning curve. And there is lots of stuff that does not work out of the box and is hard to troubleshoot. 

 

IMO For Linux on the desktop to really take of, a large gaming company should get involved and make sure that a distro is created and starts at least also supply the games for at least that distro. Gaming has improved tremendously on Linux, but as long as the studios supply them only for Windows and Apple, Linux will always play catch up. I'm not much of gamer. The only game I play does work and is so old that it runs 4k ultimate settings on a GTX970.  

 

For non gamers that don't require Windows (or Mac) only software such as the Adobe suite it can actually be a lot smoother experience already. I helped my in-laws to switch to Linux Mint nearly 10 years ago. They love it, the DE is much more like XP than the newer Windows versions, so they actually had less of learning curve than to switch to newer Windows. The systems keep them selves up to date. And installing the few programs they want by using the repositories (using the GUI) is not only easier than to hunt down and download .msi or .exe files, it also has saved them from tons of malware. To be fair, I help with some maintenance tasks, but did that for them as well when they were still on Windows. I now just have a lot less work and a lot less to clean up  
 

[thedarthtux]

On 11/5/2021 at 12:13 PM, emosun said:

See this is more or less what I was trying to squeeze out of you.

 

Its the superiority complex that the more unfavorable side of the community has that insists that the same people who quickly adapted smartphones in the past decade into their lives are not capable of using an OS that uses the same hardware but is somewhat different.

 

Its the mindset that a community needs to fall back on in order to explain the issue without blaming themselves. The old " theres nothing wrong with us its the entire world that has a problem" situation.

 

Ive found that the entire world quickly adapts to most changes. Which is noticeable mostly in mobile OS versions that are not like windows at all. At no real point would I consider all of planet earth to be more lazy or unwilling to learn than just me.

 

Anyway, I think this conversation has run its course to exactly where I knew it would go so ill end my involvement here and wait for the enevitable video explaining the same thing again.

I will have to disagree here because I feel a lot of the issues Windows and Linux users in these running battles have is they are talking past each other without understanding what they are both saying to each other. Basically two groups entrenched in their way of thinking that they can't put themselves into the other's shoes.

 

But to start with abbreviations and definitions for anyone who doesn't know what they may be. 

DE = Desktop Environment (KDE, gnome, Xfce, mate, QT, etc)

TMW = Tiled Window Manager (i3m etc)

distro = distribution (Ubuntu, Arch, Elemenary OS, manjaro, mint, etc)

repo/PPA = software repository

ACO: is an AMD/Vulkan overlay shader developed by Valve for the open-source Mesa drivers (read more here https://steamcommunity.com/games/221410/announcements/detail/1602634609636894200)

ACSO = PCI Access Control Services (ACS) Override (read more here https://www.heiko-sieger.info/iommu-groups-what-you-need-to-consider/)

 

I get where you and many others are coming from here, because I have had similar discussions in the past when it comes to switching to Linux and the type of people that most regular PC users come across online. However, what I have learned is most of these people are typically very advanced users or those who got into linux as far back as 2007 and had become used to how things were done then that it is just instinctive for them to things in say command line. God! I mean even as recently as last year, I got into an argument with some random person I feel now to have just been a troll because I made a comment about how it was nice that an innovation Vavle had made for the AMD drivers on Linux, I think it's ACO, was finally being incorporated into the Mesa drivers for AMD GPUs. I specifically said this person needs to think about people like Linus and his followers and it only being when Linus is able to say to them that he would use Linux would we see a real growth. Of course this person proceeded to attack Linus as well as myself, but still, whoever it was was simply wrong.

 

However, when you understand why a distribution like Ubuntu and all its children exist are are typically the top most installed ditros, you begin to understand that there is actually a very large number of people out there in the Linux community who actually care about just getting things done as easily a possible with as little thinking or tinkering as possible. I have used pretty much all major distros and DEs since 2006, I remember having to ndiswrapper Windows drivers to get printers and modems to work in Linux, I remember having to figure out installing MS Office 2007 using WINE and later CrossOver, even playing The Sims 2 & 3, Need For Speed, Fifa, SplitSecond, Burnout Paradise, GTA 3, even Tomb Raider 2013 and many more in Linux using a great tool called PlayOnLinux that has now been replaced by Lutris, Heroic, and a couple of others.

 

I distro hopped with the best of them, even trying out gentoo at one point, but always landed back on Ubuntu based distros for the very simple reason that, Ubuntu was just easier to use on a daily basis and fairly up-to-date. All I was doing was just choosing which Ubuntu derivative based on look and feel. Where I landed on Elementary OS. Even when I started doing GPU passthrough in 2016 and temporarily switched to no longer active Opacity (an arch-base distro) that switch was because GPU passthrough was just easier to set up on Arch.But when an update broke my set up and I stumbled across a Level1Tech (https://level1techs.com/) video explaining how GPU passthrough could be done on Debian and Elementary OS had received a new version, I tried and successfully got my GPU Passthrough back and on Ubuntu the only issue after that was keeping my Linux kernel updated with the required kernel patches for GPU passthrough (Arch's main advantage) and searching landed me on Max Ehrlich github (https://queuecumber.gitlab.io/linux-acs-override/) that meant I no longer had to search for patches or compile kernels.

 

The average PC gamer would not even need to do GPU passthrough today and this was the most advanced I have gone in Linux. In fact this and system updates (especially where I needed to update PPAs or hold back certain parts of the update that would break the update due to out dated dependencies a problem with using Ubuntu LTS late in the OS upgrade cycle) were the only times I ever used command line in Linux since 2016. Since switching to Garuda Linux (an Arch-based dristro) in June, I have only used command line to run system updates and convert *.deb Ubuntu installers to Arch installers for my Epson V600 Scanner. In other words, I'm even using command line a lot less than I was in Elementary OS/Ubuntu.

 

Linux is extremely easy if you do your research beforehand. The key behind making a plunge into Linux is to do some background research before hand knowing what you like and how you use your PC. This whole get to know the look and feel of the distro and DE or TWM you are getting into is an extremely important thing for how you user experience will go in Linux. This is where a lot of complaints come from but it is also why a lot of the experienced Linux users also get irritated with the complaints and often descend into "just use the terminal" that may sound like gate-keeping and elitism to a Windows user trying out Linux. it all boils down to two groups of people speaking past each other. Even some of the command line stuff Linus was complaining people were telling him to do to copy files rather than using the file browser also comes down to understanding that Linux is a lot more strict when it comes to accessing system files and folders than Windows or even Mac. This is one of the reasons, it is harder to break a working Linux distro than Windows or mac because you need to be explicitly the superuser or root user to change any system file. For a seasoned Linux user who doesn't things instinctively, the way things work in Windows encourages people to develop bad unsafe habits to a seasoned Windows user Linux's rigidity on permissions is an irritation. But again even this is a mindset of understanding how and why Linux differs from Windows. You can't go from Windows to Linux or Windows to Mac or Mac to Linux and expect everything to remain the same. And this is the problem of expectations setting because people typically don't do enough or any research beforehand.

 

Even the confusion I have seen with Windows users thinking an OS/distro is the same thing as a DE or TWM is again down to not doing research before installing because they are used to Windows only really ever having one DE. Though Stardock (if they are still around) do have a ton of customisation to the Windows DE that would make users thing the OS was not Windows. This confusion again comes from familiarity with Windows and not really understanding Linux is NOT Windows. So Linus in the last WAN talking about it would be better for Linux to have a consolidation because there are too many options, sounds like a typical Windows user switching to Linux (where Free = Freedom of speech and Freedom of Expression and hence all the choices) expecting to be seeing things like the walled garden of Windows. Of course this then triggers seasoned Linux users to think, "you f-ing moron!!" It is not because Linux users are PC elitists or anything but because there are things that coming from Windows you simply will not understand until you have been using Linux for a while and spoken to a few Linux users. So as a Windows user you're getting triggered because Linux is not like Windows and because you're getting triggered by that, you're also triggering Linux users who may have been willing to or were trying help you. So again spending sometime doing research before switching from Windows is extremely important.

 

And when it comes down to doing research beforehand,  the great thing with Linux is you can try most distros out without installing them to see if you like their look and feel. Garuda even gives you the opportunity to try out all major DEs and TWMs as liveCDs/LiveUSBs before commenting to installing one over the others. And we are seeing this with Luke in how his Linux challenge is going that he has now gone Linux on his laptop as well. It is also why Linus seems to be having more issues than Luke even though both do enjoy Linux. For Linus going on Arch, I would have suggested he chose Garuda rather than Manjaro because Garuda is simply easier to use as a newbie than Manjaro. Even now I use Garuda, I would never use the TWM versions of Garuda like Garuda i3m because I just can't deal with the whole TWM thing. But that's just my personal preference for other's TWMs are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Also to touch on the Nvidia vs AMD driver stuff that also comes up a lot which to a Windows PC gamer is fanboi handbags at 6 paces childishness, on Linux, typically when someone says you should be using AMD GPUs, it is because AMD has been a lot more embracing of opensource and Linux deskptop than Nvidia. AMD's approach is they create hardware you the end user use it as you see fit. So you will see Valve working with the opensource community to build out shaders and resources for AMD hardware because for the most part AMD hardware and software are more open than Nvidia. This is why, if as a gamer you want assurance that a new Windows game will work in Linux you are advised to use AMD GPUs and the Mesa drivers. Nvidia GPUs will generally work as well but may require some additional work such as using beta Vulakn drivers or waiting for Nvidia's official release of a driver update. Red Dead Redemption 2's path to working on Steam Proton/GE was a perfect example of this as appears to be Marvel's Avengers. If Nvidia opened up their GPUs and drivers the way AMD have, the whole use AMD on Linux conversation would probably not happen.

 

An extension of this closed-source vs opensource drivers and hardware issue is another reason why Linux uses tend to also support Valve and will use Steam over any other game launcher is exactly because Valve made an active (financial and otherwise) commitment to going Linux as much as they possibly could get developers to cater for Vulkan and Linux. Something a lot of tech reviewers failed to really appreciate the implications of as they mocked Vulkan, AMD Vega, SteamOS, and Steam Box though not so much Steam Deck. For linux users this is huge for reasons of brand loyalty. I would rather do all my gaming on Steam and if I went VR buy the Valve Index than go near any other store, launcher or hardware. This is also why people will often say it is unfair to say I can't play may game on Linux but I can on Windows, because a PC gamer on Windows ignores the fact developers have historically and even now completely ignore Linux and will push tools and services like Easy Anti-Cheat that will just not work in Linux because the developers of EAC ignored Linux for years until Valve started working with them to get Linux and WINE/Proton support built in; then of course EPIC (the company whose CEO insulted Linux and Canadians by saying something along the lines of Linux is as irrelevant as Canada and no one uses it) bought EAC. So again, doing research about the games you play a lot on Windows beforehand makes a huge difference to your user experience when trying to switch to Linux. I personally only buy games I know are getting native Linux ports/versions or, if Windows only, are reported on ProtonDB (https://www.protondb.com/) or Lutris (https://lutris.net/) as working well enough not to be an issue for me. Even then I will make sure the game is going to be native to Linux and will not buy if not unless there is just something special about the game. I know this is not something a lot of PC gamers can or care to do, especially if they have a huge library of games, but it is all part of the pre-switch research that Windows users need to do before switching to Linux. At the extreme if absurd analogies, it is like being an avid Xbox fan then suddenly buying a PS5 and expecting your XBox library of exclusives to be playable on the PS5. Over the years, game developers for rational financial reasons have focused exclusively on Windows and nothing else in the PC ecosystem and unfortunately that blind focus on Windows has basically turned and continues to turn a lot of games into Windows exclusives until someone on Linux can figure out a way to tweak WINE to get it working while anything with EAC is just locked off to Linux users. 

 

So a lot of the time, it is not gate-keeping by Linux users, but really people speaking past each other especially if it sounds like someone is complaining about something that just makes no sense to complain about when you have the full context of why that thing is way it is.

[emosun]

19 minutes ago, thedarthtux said:

 

Id agree with most of what you typed if there werent other operating systems/interfaces that people were able to tolerate and understand better without any experience. Such as mac os , android , ios , ect.....

 

I dont use mac os for anything at all , the only working mac os I have is on an imac running mac os 8 which is a terrible os. But it still is very easy to use and understand and the amount of documentation for solving issues even on a 25 year old operating system is quite massive. At not point in mac os 8 do I need to type in a command line.

 

My phone runs android 4.3  for the last 8 years and im able to use it with very little knowledge thanks to the way its designed to be understandable to basically anyone. and again ive never had to command line anything on my phone.

 

Id honestly say if you cant learn a general use os with very little research before hand , then its not the users fault. Using linux really reminds me of pre 1990s computung where users/information/consistancy/stadardization are all gone with general use users craving something that actually functions without typing commands like its 1982. Or reading info thats outdated becuase that os isnt made anymore , or asking for help from a user whos doesnt want to help someone who doesnt already know a lot. 

 

Linus touched on the linux challege in the recent wan and mentioned how big a problem fragmentation with linux is , and yeah I get the feeling I know exactly how the video series is gonna go.

[thedarthtux]

6 minutes ago, emosun said:

Id agree with most of what you typed if there werent other operating systems/interfaces that people were able to tolerate and understand better without any experience. Such as mac os , android , ios , ect.....

....

Linus touched on the linux challege in the recent wan and mentioned how big a problem fragmentation with linux is , and yeah I get the feeling I know exactly how the video series is gonna go.

Mac OS is a proprietary port of Unix (Solaris, Darwin, AIX, HP-UX, Xenix, BSD, PS4's OS, etc) that was made popular because Apple created a niche market for their computers that were initially locked on the PowerPC CPU chips before moving to the x86 chipset between 2006 and 2021. So Mac OS, is actually just  another Unix distro. It is no different from just how Arch, Ubuntu, SuSe, RedHat, etc are all variations of the same underlying Linux OS.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that Android (including ChromeOS), is actually a port of Linux specifically engineered by Google for mobile. Check the bottom of this image from the Linux Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution)

 

 

There are multiple forks of that base Android OS such as LineageOS and /e/OS to name just two that have nothing Google on them except the base Android code. I for example us a Samsung S9 that I patched to run /e/OS and have no Google app on and use FDroid and Exodus ratings to make sure that no app I install contains trackers or permissions that make no sense. Android became successful as a mobile OS because Google signed exclusive contracts with companies like Samsung meaning they could not sell phones using anything other than Google's version of Android even though the base Android OS is opensource and can and has been ported multiple times.

 

So with both I think you are confusing marketing and negotiation success of Apple and Google for standardisation.

 

32 minutes ago, emosun said:

Id honestly say if you cant learn a general use os with very little research before hand , then its not the users fault. Using linux really reminds me of pre 1990s computung where users/information/consistancy/stadardization are all gone with general use users craving something that actually functions without typing commands like its 1982. Or reading info thats outdated becuase that os isnt made anymore , or asking for help from a user whos doesnt want to help someone who doesnt already know a lot. 

 

Again this is confusing an OS for a DE/TWM and not appreciating the notion that Linux has a philosophy of Free = Freedom of Speech/Freedom of Expression.

 

At the core OS level things are pretty much standardised. The structure of the system files and directories are all identical. There may be slight variations on syntax based on core origin (i.e. Slackware, RedHat, Debian, Enoch, Arch), so Debian based distros (like Ubuntu) will use "apt" while Arch-Linux based distros will use "pacman" as package managers. The "sudo" command however is standard across all. In fact if you look at that picture again(to the far left), you will see that pretty much all the most popular Linux distros originate from the 5 core distros I mentioned

1. Slackware
2. RedHat
3. Debian
4. Enoch
5. Arch

So there is actually a great deal more standardisation in Linux than people used to Windows assume.

 

Where people get confused is the DE and TWM, but these are nothing more than superficial coverings to interact with the base OS. The different distros actually just design language changes in terms of DE and TWM that people came up with over the years to suit their needs, wishes and personalities. However, even then, KDE and Gnome were the most widely used and original DEs. Even Elementary OS whose developers decided to create Pantheon for a more refined DE experience, based Pantheon on Gnome. My Garuda Linux install (Garuda Dr4gonized) as a KDE desktop that feels and works like a MacOS desktop with the dock and global menu bar. 

 

To that end, even when I was using Windows 7, I installed stardock's (https://www.stardock.com/) applications to full re-engineer the look of my Windows desktop because I hated and still do hate the look of the Windows DE and wanted something more like a Mac desktop with the dock and file menu. I think I even changed the Windows boot screen at one point. If I had the millions of dollars it would have taken for pay for licencing rights, I could have released my own Windows OS with Mac OS Desktop using Stardock and sold that paying the three companies for their royalties. If all three were opensource the way Linux is, I can assure you that there would be countless versions and DEs.

 

In fact one of the reasons, I went Android instead of ios was because I loved the fact my Android DE did not look like everyone else like Apple's IOS forced back then. I could have widgets for things l wanted to see without having to open an app, and many other things. This is actually one of the big draws for Linux users too. The fact you can configure your DE/TWM experience to suit your personal preferences. When I first got into Linux I used to customise everything, I changed the boot screen, changed the grub menu, changed the fonts, installed CompizFusion for wobbly windows and animated window actions, cube desktop switching, ClutterFlow to mimic the file preview style of the Mac OS Finder application. I grew out of doing all that and now settle for a clean look.

 

But these are things that you can do in the Windows DE too but would have to pay for and most Windows users do not even know about.

 

So I think you are confusing rigid corporate monopolistic control and business practices for standardisation. Windows and MacOS "standardisation" came because both Apple and Microsoft have monopolistic control over their proprietary products and the masses of people believe they have no choice but to use these products. Standardisation in Linux is generally ground up based on consumer choice and preferences. This is why as I said the majority of top installed distros are Ubuntu (and ultimately Debian since Ubuntu is a fork of Debian) based.

 

This is why mindset that comes form research going into Linux as a Windows user is extremely important. 

[emosun]

13 minutes ago, thedarthtux said:

So I think you are confusing rigid corporate monopolistic control and business practices for standardisation

Well looks like its time for me to duck out again. 

 

Im always amazed when the real thought process comes out in these "discussions". It basically reminds me to not bother having them when you actually get the root of someones thinking to come to the surface. It draws a lot of parallels to other more controversial topics and reminds me not to even try and engage becuase I inow exactly where its gonna go.

[thedarthtux]

2 hours ago, emosun said:

Well looks like its time for me to duck out again. 

 

Im always amazed when the real thought process comes out in these "discussions". It basically reminds me to not bother having them when you actually get the root of someones thinking to come to the surface. It draws a lot of parallels to other more controversial topics and reminds me not to even try and engage becuase I inow exactly where its gonna go.

Honestly, there is nothing controversial about any of this. At least from what I see.

 

Over the years I have been using Linux and computers more generally all the way back to my ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64, I have just come to learn a lot about these things that, (yes I admit), the average person may not know or care about, but this is exactly why I actually understand both sides of the argument and will not just tell people struggling with some of the things Linus was by just saying "you shouldn't be doing that" or "just use the command line" I would actually explain the details and reasoning as best as I can.

 

It is also why I always tell people looking to switch to or try Linux to research by downloading and trying the LiveCD/USBs before installing to see if the distro works for them and why I pretty much stick to recommending only a couple of distros all derived from either Arch or Ubuntu. And before discovering Garuda earlier this year and trying it for myself, I would only have ever recommended Ubuntu-based distros like Pop_OS, Elementary, and Mint for a regular PC gamer or Windows user. My recommended distros for Linus and Luke would literally have been

• Pop_OS (Ubuntu)
• Garuda (Arch)
• ElementaryOS (Ubuntu Long Term Support)
• Mint (Ubuntu)
• ZorinOS (Arch)

I would have also told them to install applications like Disks and TimeShift before going into the other stuff.

 

But this type of knowledge would really come from an initial background research on Linux, the top installed distros, and if you're a PC game looking up what distros Valve actively support based on SteamOS (i.e. Ubuntu and now Arch with Steam Deck).

 

The background research is needed because Linux unfortunately doesn't have the corporate/commercial support that Microsoft managed to negotiate for Windows back in the day or that Apple created by selling MacOS with their PCs. We are seeing more of that approach in Linux now with Valve, Lenovo, System76, Purism, StarLabs, and Laptops With Linux, but it is small and you still can't walk into a BestBuy or Micro Centre and buy a Linux desktop or laptop. Since that commercial infrastructure hasn't been there, you need that initial research to know what you are getting into. When I talk about Apple, Google, and Microsoft having monopolistic control, this is what I mean. They forged, through various contracts and deals, a commercial infrastructure to get the masses used to their products. Canonical tried to create the Ubuntu Phone but couldn't raise the funds back then to mass produce though even that is changing now with PinePhone and Librum.

 

However, if BestBuy won't make money by selling Linux desktop PCs, then why would they carry them in their stores? If BestBuy won't carry Linux PCs why would HP or Dell produce them? If they don't carry or produce Linux devices, how are people going to buy a Linux desktop PCs and learn to use Linux the way they have learned to use and become familiar with Windows and Mac? The curious Windows or Mac OS users who want to try Linux will really have no choice but to go online and do research to figure out what Linux is and be hit by an army of distros and get confused and say there is no standardisation and Linux is complicated. Whereas the truth is more that Linux is simply just an entirely new thing to learn for most people used to years of only seeing Windows and Mac but it is in reality no more complicated than Windows or Mac OS despite how it often is made to comes across as.

 

I may have a preference for Linux and opensource applications for my personal reasons, but that doesn't mean I have any issues with proprietary applications or Windows or Mac. I don't even particularly care if people prefer Windows or Mac over Linux. However there just a lot of misconceptions on both sides I see in these debates, that if people truly understood the hardware, software, and commercial backgrounds to would result in more constructive help and advice.

[maplepants]

21 hours ago, Mihle said:

I think the person you replied to was specifically about being popular on people laptops and desktops, not servers.... And on Laptops/desktops, very few run Linux.

I read it not as being merely unpopular as a laptop/desktop OS, but as generally unpopular for home users. Even if you can't buy a Ubuntu laptop down at Best Buy, but you know what you can buy? A raspberry pi, or a Red Hat workstation license. 

 

Linux is a popular, mainstream OS that new users are able to easily find and get learning. The forum here is, for obvious reasons, pretty gaming focused. But among the broader computer/tech enthusiast community, stuff like the Raspberry Pi, Linux apps on ChromeOS, NAS devices like Synology or My Book, are all pretty popular.

[maplepants]

16 hours ago, thedarthtux said:

Mac OS is a proprietary port of Unix (Solaris, Darwin, AIX, HP-UX, Xenix, BSD, PS4's OS, etc) that was made popular because Apple created a niche market for their computers that were initially locked on the PowerPC CPU chips before moving to the x86 chipset between 2006 and 2021. So Mac OS, is actually just  another Unix distro. It is no different from just how Arch, Ubuntu, SuSe, RedHat, etc are all variations of the same underlying Linux OS.

Sort of. The Unix-y heritage of macOS comes from NeXTSTEP, and that's a distinct heritage from classic Mac OS. So while the Darwin kernel is blend of BSD, Unix (via NeXTSTEP), and mach, there are a lot of differences in the rest of the operating system. You could, in past versions of MacOS X, run classic Mac OS apps, but you've never been able to run BSD or other Unix binaries as is in Mac OS X or macOS.

[thedarthtux]

1 hour ago, maplepants said:

Sort of. The Unix-y heritage of macOS comes from NeXTSTEP, and that's a distinct heritage from classic Mac OS. So while the Darwin kernel is blend of BSD, Unix (via NeXTSTEP), and mach, there are a lot of differences in the rest of the operating system. You could, in past versions of MacOS X, run classic Mac OS apps, but you've never been able to run BSD or other Unix binaries as is in Mac OS X or macOS.

Definitely agreed! I probably should have been more specific about the changes Apple made, but yes, there are definitely so many differences between MacOS and the Unix that they were not compatible with each other, and it makes a lot of sense from a business stand point for Apple to re-engineer everything. 

 

My point was really just that a lot of the operating systems we take for granted were engineered or ported from something else for the specific purposes of the people or companies behind them. Even in with Ubuntu being built from Debian, there are times you simply can't install their .deb packages or PPAs interchangably and some cases where it's not a problem.

[maplepants]

5 minutes ago, thedarthtux said:

operating systems we take for granted were engineered or ported from something else for the specific purposes of the people or companies behind them

Your choice of Debian to make this point was a good one. There such a wide variety of distros downstream from Debian and the interoperability varies wildly. 

[thedarthtux]

1 hour ago, maplepants said:

I read it not as being merely unpopular as a laptop/desktop OS, but as generally unpopular for home users. Even if you can't buy a Ubuntu laptop down at Best Buy, but you know what you can buy? A raspberry pi, or a Red Hat workstation license. 

 

Linux is a popular, mainstream OS that new users are able to easily find and get learning. The forum here is, for obvious reasons, pretty gaming focused. But among the broader computer/tech enthusiast community, stuff like the Raspberry Pi, Linux apps on ChromeOS, NAS devices like Synology or My Book, are all pretty popular.

Totally! And they don't even need to buy anything, just find Linux forums like Level1Tech or even here, get advice from people who run Linux as their daily drivers, etch an ISO unto a USB stick and explore Linux at little to no risk. There will clearly be things that won't be doable on a LiveCD but at least it is a way to get an initial familiarity with Linux before fully diving in. Heck even dual booting.

 

I think a lot of resistance comes from the fact we are all so familiar with Windows and the misconception that Linux is complicated and is only for servers and  dev ops that the majority of people just choose to stay away and stick with what they know. I'm not a dev ops and while I don't get much time to game these days, Linux has been my exclusive daily driver since 2015 even if for a while between 2016 and 2018 I was running a vfio enabled Windows VM to play a handful of games that were not yet working on Linux. Setting up the vfio/GPU passthrough was definitely a learning curve and scary but it did become rather straightforward with the right instructions.

[Mihle]

3 hours ago, maplepants said:

I read it not as being merely unpopular as a laptop/desktop OS, but as generally unpopular for home users. Even if you can't buy a Ubuntu laptop down at Best Buy, but you know what you can buy? A raspberry pi, or a Red Hat workstation license. 

 

Linux is a popular, mainstream OS that new users are able to easily find and get learning. The forum here is, for obvious reasons, pretty gaming focused. But among the broader computer/tech enthusiast community, stuff like the Raspberry Pi, Linux apps on ChromeOS, NAS devices like Synology or My Book, are all pretty popular.

I understood it as Linux on desktop and laptop.

 

In the grand scheme of things, probably not that many have Raspberry Pi. (But in tech interested people them there are some)

For like Synology, its made so people that get it set it up once and forget it, but yes it's Linux.

 

I wouldn't consider ChromeOS, Linux, personally, I would call it it's own thing.

[maplepants]

41 minutes ago, Mihle said:

In the grand scheme of things, probably not that many have Raspberry Pi.

In the grand scheme of things, not many people have a desktop computer with a discrete GPU. Of course no tech product can be as main stream as jeans, sneakers, or hockey. But still, I think that sometimes users on the forum here (like the one I was quoting) mistake desktop Linux being unpopular for gaming with Linux being unpopular outside of the business world. 

 

The point I'm making is just that Linux is a very popular operating system, within the business world and within the computer enthusiast/hobbyist world. There are operating systems that are not all that popular, like FreeBSD or Solaris. Linux is just not in that category. It's a popular operating system. Gaming on Linux is really bad, and yet Linux is popular enough that we have lots of people here discussing gaming on Linux. Nobody here is discussing gaming on FreeBSD, because it's just not popular enough to break out of the narrow field of computer enthusiasts who like what it's best at. 

[Chunchunmaru_]

21 hours ago, emosun said:

Well looks like its time for me to duck out again. 

 

Im always amazed when the real thought process comes out in these "discussions". It basically reminds me to not bother having them when you actually get the root of someones thinking to come to the surface. It draws a lot of parallels to other more controversial topics and reminds me not to even try and engage becuase I inow exactly where its gonna go.

What it actually seems to me is you actually care more about what people say than the product itself, and what it really is, and this translates in a "rant" against every community

Please just don't.

[one-riff]

On 11/5/2021 at 6:19 PM, yesyes said:

I don't have too many thoughts on the series, but I do have thoughts on your spelling

Thanks for the correction, but I'll leave them for anyone who isn't very good at language and can manage to make spelling mistakes consistently while programming.

 

On 11/5/2021 at 6:04 PM, Giganthrax said:

Eh, I don't think Linux devs don't want it to be popular on desktop. It's just that they don't have the resources to make it popular no matter what they do. 

This is exactly how I feel about it, in my spare time I don't even think about improving personal irritations. After my daily work programming I would like to use my computer for entertainment and hours of programming is not part of that.Every open source project relies on the contributions of its users to move forward and I can well imagine that many people who are good at programming don't always feel like it in their spare time.

 

I often easily find a way around the problem I have and don't find it necessary to write something for it. In those cases I would have to come back to that thought, to contribute anyway so that others are helped. If all people like me did that, the usability of Linux and many open-course projects would be a lot better.

 

Last WAN show Linus announced that it will be a while before part 1 comes online. So we have to wait a little longer, I really hope he doesn't make us wait too long, it must be a laugh to see how Linus is having a hard time and find how not user-friendly Linux is. I also like to see Luke start to embrace Linux. Let the show begin!

 

Edit: I did not expect a second page i have some reading to catch up

 

Regarding the above discussion, I think the fragmentation is just a positive thing. Everyone has a solution to his or her problem and solves it in a different way. Yes, it can be a depressing thing if your idea isn't taken over by the community, but it just needs to be picked up by one person and changed in such a way that it might be transformed in the ideal picture. I think that's a beautiful thought that I like to hold on to, whether it's true or not.

[thedarthtux]

9 hours ago, maplepants said:

Gaming on Linux is really bad, and yet Linux is popular enough that we have lots of people here discussing gaming on Linux. Nobody here is discussing gaming on FreeBSD, because it's just not popular enough to break out of the narrow field of computer enthusiasts who like what it's best at. 

Just to be a troll LOL!! I was at one point talking about gaming on FreeBSD, then I came to my senses. 

 

Seriously, though, there just needs to be a critical mass and I believe with Valve and, dare I say, Google's Stadia, gaming on Linux will become more mature and mainstream. From what I have seen the issue is not so much that the gaming experience on Linux is even bad, but just the economics of game development has meant Linux users had to find ways to get things to work and the fact they have consistently done so. Says an awful lot about the passion of Linux users for PC gaming.

 

That said, developments like Vulkan, Stream Proton, Steam Deck, and now both EAC and BattleEye providing very simplified support for Linux and WINE/Proton are making Linux more accessible for gaming. For games using battleeye, all the devs have to do to support Linux is simply send Valve an email and Proton will do the rest (see: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/11/supporting-linux-proton-and-the-steam-deck-with-battleye-is-just-an-email-away). There will no doubt be issues with older games that haven't been properly maintained for easy installation on things like Lutris as Linus and Luke found out.

 

Even the frame rate comparison that some people make between Windows and Linux is really not even a thing anymore especially with GPU performance now and APUs slowly but surely becoming enough to 1080p 60fps+ gaming. Basically even if there was an unrealistic 20% gap between Windows and Linux now using Vulkan, if my GPU is hitting 120fps at 4K high settings in Windows but only 100 fps on Linux using WINE/Proton, as a Linux gamer do I really care? Not really! Especially if my monitor or TV only gets 60-70hz at 4K. If rumours about the RTX 4000 and RX 7000 cards are true then entry level GPUs will be 1440p ray tracing cards and frame rates may not matter outside of benchmarks and reviews.

 

So the future may be a lot brighter than this time a couple of years ago as a lot of the pain points have been and continue to be removed. I am definitely optimistic that even though Stadia has a whole bunch of modifications to the core Debian base (if I remember correctly the distro it's based on) the experience of compiling games for Stadia and Vulkan may in time encourage devs and studios to just release Linux desktop ports. 

 

 

[maplepants]

11 hours ago, thedarthtux said:

Just to be a troll LOL!! I was at one point talking about gaming on FreeBSD, then I came to my senses. 

 

Seriously, though, there just needs to be a critical mass and I believe with Valve and, dare I say, Google's Stadia, gaming on Linux will become more mature and mainstream. From what I have seen the issue is not so much that the gaming experience on Linux is even bad, but just the economics of game development has meant Linux users had to find ways to get things to work and the fact they have consistently done so. Says an awful lot about the passion of Linux users for PC gaming.

 

That said, developments like Vulkan, Stream Proton, Steam Deck, and now both EAC and BattleEye providing very simplified support for Linux and WINE/Proton are making Linux more accessible for gaming. For games using battleeye, all the devs have to do to support Linux is simply send Valve an email and Proton will do the rest (see: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/11/supporting-linux-proton-and-the-steam-deck-with-battleye-is-just-an-email-away). There will no doubt be issues with older games that haven't been properly maintained for easy installation on things like Lutris as Linus and Luke found out.

 

Even the frame rate comparison that some people make between Windows and Linux is really not even a thing anymore especially with GPU performance now and APUs slowly but surely becoming enough to 1080p 60fps+ gaming. Basically even if there was an unrealistic 20% gap between Windows and Linux now using Vulkan, if my GPU is hitting 120fps at 4K high settings in Windows but only 100 fps on Linux using WINE/Proton, as a Linux gamer do I really care? Not really! Especially if my monitor or TV only gets 60-70hz at 4K. If rumours about the RTX 4000 and RX 7000 cards are true then entry level GPUs will be 1440p ray tracing cards and frame rates may not matter outside of benchmarks and reviews.

 

So the future may be a lot brighter than this time a couple of years ago as a lot of the pain points have been and continue to be removed. I am definitely optimistic that even though Stadia has a whole bunch of modifications to the core Debian base (if I remember correctly the distro it's based on) the experience of compiling games for Stadia and Vulkan may in time encourage devs and studios to just release Linux desktop ports. 

 

 

Part of me would love to see an impassioned case for gaming on FreeBSD, but I don't think even people who work on the distro could make one. 

 

I hope you're right about Linux gaming, because I know Linux really well and sometimes I find troubleshooting Windows on my gaming PC difficult. Windows has this wacky Settings/Menu structure where you kind of go back in time from the normal settings app through Windows 7 looking stuff to some menus that look they haven't been touched since Windows XP. When some setting/flag can only be reached by Settings > Item List > Item > Advanced > Details > Advanced or some equally convoluted path, it totally throws me. The Linux/macOS method of "sudo vim /path/to/some/textfile" is something I prefer because it's what I'm used to.

 

So assuming the Steam Deck is any good, I plan on buying one with as much storage as Valve is willing to sell me. But, I'm bit more cautious than you since the last time I got excited about linux gaming hardware, it was the Steam Machine. They never really came to anything, and what was shipped were Windows machines with XBox controllers. Even though the Steam Controller did launch (and I bought two) Valve gave up on it after just a few years. SteamOS was similarly abandoned by Valve.

 

So even though I'd like for you to be right about the future of Linux gaming, and the Steam Deck, I think we can't really ignore Valve's track record here. If the sales of the Steam Deck in the first month don't absolutely floor Valve's accounting department, they'll drop the product and its OS pretty quickly.