Linus his Linux challange

[one-riff]

The time has finally come, the first part is online.

 

Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1

 

Interesting to see that dependency hell is still a thing. I haven't seen such problems with dependencies in a long time. Although it is of course not useful to ignore such notifications and say "Yes, do as I say!", the warning indicates things are going wrong. Still nice to see Linus has made its way in to some games. To be continued.

 

Not enough yet? then there is also this: Should you stick to Windows for gaming?

 

Luke really has a point there. It's exactly what I do, I really don't go looking for where to click, but instead open a terminal and do what I need to do. 

Ook interessant dat de realisatie nog niet is gekomen dat de gui package manager is eignelijk het zelfde als de command line packagemanager, iets met alles is een bestand.

 

I do not completely agree with the statement that downloading an exe on windows is better or easier. At the very least, it's less secure like downloading a shell script and running it without checking what it does, let alone a binary. This dilemma seems the same to me on Windows as it does on Linux. In that respect, a package manager is a first gatekeeper for a bit of security by taking care of trusted packages and ensuring that dependencies are respected. Still a long way to go. 

[flindeberg]

1 hour ago, one-riff said:

Interesting to see that dependency hell is still a thing. I haven't seen such problems with dependencies in a long time.

The more a Linux distribution tries to do, the closer it gets to dependency hell. Windows hides dependency hell behind the magic of "WinSxS", and Microsoft puts a crazy amount of manpower, man hours and other kinds of effort into it, so for most Windows users dependency hell is hidden from the user, even if it exists (and eats up storage, the WinSxS folder with friends can easily eat 50GB or more on an older Windows install).

 

By doing less as a Linux distribution you avoid more of the dependency issues, which possibly is the reason that Linus could make Manjaro run but not PopOS. A clean Arch install with a manual install of the latest Nvidia 495 driver would probably have meant even less issues (either https://www.nvidia.com/Download/driverResults.aspx/181274/en-us or https://github.com/Frogging-Family/nvidia-all for pacman-based distros). However, and this a major one, the skill set required for an Arch install is leagues from the skill set required to install PopOS or Manjaro.

[norgaladir]

1 hour ago, one-riff said:

Interesting to see that dependency hell is still a thing.

I think the issue might have been avoided by updating the system first, then installing steam. To a linux user that is almost second nature (so much that it's not something I'd even think to mention anymore) to make sure your package manager is up to date before installing something new to avoid these sorts of issues, and seeing the "Yes, do as I say!" would be a reminder to do that if it wasn't. I use pop, but personally not a fan of the pop shop and just use apt for everything, but for new users, the pop shop should really check for updates and recommend installing them before installing a new package (especially if it fails). IIRC I saw this warning once somewhere when using Pamac I think?

[one-riff]

Well, for me it's atleast 10 year ago that i have seen suche a question that i had to type "Yes, do as I say!". I agree it's second nature to update before installing new software, but that is exactly too point, it's not realy user frendly. Also if that question to type "Yes, do as I say!" appears I whould not continue and start searsing for an other way unless I realy was shure what is gowing to happen and I know the staps afterwards. Then again this is not user freandly aldo it becomes second nature.

[thedarthtux]

13 hours ago, maplepants said:

Part of me would love to see an impassioned case for gaming on FreeBSD, but I don't think even people who work on the distro could make one. 

 

I hope you're right about Linux gaming, because I know Linux really well and sometimes I find troubleshooting Windows on my gaming PC difficult. Windows has this wacky Settings/Menu structure where you kind of go back in time from the normal settings app through Windows 7 looking stuff to some menus that look they haven't been touched since Windows XP. When some setting/flag can only be reached by Settings > Item List > Item > Advanced > Details > Advanced or some equally convoluted path, it totally throws me. The Linux/macOS method of "sudo vim /path/to/some/textfile" is something I prefer because it's what I'm used to.

 

So assuming the Steam Deck is any good, I plan on buying one with as much storage as Valve is willing to sell me. But, I'm bit more cautious than you since the last time I got excited about linux gaming hardware, it was the Steam Machine. They never really came to anything, and what was shipped were Windows machines with XBox controllers. Even though the Steam Controller did launch (and I bought two) Valve gave up on it after just a few years. SteamOS was similarly abandoned by Valve.

 

So even though I'd like for you to be right about the future of Linux gaming, and the Steam Deck, I think we can't really ignore Valve's track record here. If the sales of the Steam Deck in the first month don't absolutely floor Valve's accounting department, they'll drop the product and its OS pretty quickly.

I hear you! I always went back to the old UI settings apps. The glittery new UI ended up being an irritation some group of people at MS thought would be a great idea. It is like "I don't care about the add new hardware thing just give me device manager and let me find my device and install the drivers". By the time you finish clicking on the arrows you could have done a command line thing or write and execute a batch script that would do what you need.

 

For me, I'm looking at the Steam Deck as a small form factor laptop since I plan to get the docking station once that is released. The specs seem impressive enough for 1080p but we'll see. I wouldn't judge the Deck by the Steam Machine standards though. I think Steam Machine was actually a good idea that was just years ahead of its time and so landed in a spot where it just seemed irrelevant. Consoles were going strong, PC builds were relatively cheap, Linux gaming was using OpenGL and WINE was still in its infancy. Things are much different now with Vulkan and Proton. With Proton you pretty much have 17,000 games that are know to work out the gate. With Vulkan, you have an API that in a lot of cases is better than DX12 performance wise and a lot closer  than OpenGL was to DX11 when comparing bare metal Windows performance to when using the DXVK translation layer. Some people have reported getting better performance in some instances when using DXVK rather than native DX11/DX12. They also picked AMD's Zen 3 and RDNA2 chips for the Deck so their team can actually optimise Proton for the opensource ecosystem AMD has embarrassed much more than Nvidia.

 

The Steam Deck is also not really in competition with anything other than the Switch but is packing more powerful hardware, so in theory it is in a better place than the Steam Machines. I feel Steam Deck is almost a safer play by Valve than the Steam Machines.

 

A lot on Steam Deck's sales will definitely come down to day one reviews, but like TheLinuxGamer says in this video (https://odysee.com/@TheLinuxGamer:f/steam-deck-fail:a?r=5CJHzrTZKQDYsR6H6N57eMUiYQtzBxgq) Valve do seem to be more serious about the Steam Deck and Linux gaming. However, we can only hope they have learned their lessons and who knows really if they have. So you are wise to be hold back on the optimism.

 

O the Steam Deck has an SD card slot and the SSD is also removable (Valve will be providing sources to buy the M2.2230 SSDs from down the road) so you probably don't need to worry too much about storage space but for sure get as large of internal storage as possible. The insides look too delicately put together to want to take apart. But I'm sure  Steve at Gamers Nexus will do just that

[thedarthtux]

9 hours ago, flindeberg said:

By doing less as a Linux distribution you avoid more of the dependency issues, which possibly is the reason that Linus could make Manjaro run but not PopOS. A clean Arch install with a manual install of the latest Nvidia 495 driver would probably have meant even less issues (either https://www.nvidia.com/Download/driverResults.aspx/181274/en-us or https://github.com/Frogging-Family/nvidia-all for pacman-based distros). However, and this a major one, the skill set required for an Arch install is leagues from the skill set required to install PopOS or Manjaro.

This is honestly why I believe Linus, when choosing Arch, should have gone for Garuda Linux; specifically Garuda KDE Dr460nized. It is easy to install and they made everything about driver installation and much much else super straight forward and easy using the Setup Assistant and Garuda Welcome apps. Between these 2 apps you literally can install all the apps you need, all the games launchers you need and whatever driver you need. Though, I would say not to install the Nvidia 495 drivers. Before ultimately switching back to my Radeon VII, I had to roll back to 470 and probably should have rolled back to 463 because both 470 and 495 have issues with my RTX 2080ti.

Anyway, I would rank Garuda top spot when it comes to Linux distros for newbies. Still can't believe my top recommendation for a newbie Linux distro is Arch, but teh team over at Garuda really did an amazing job thinking and finding solutions for a lot of the pain points newbies face with Linux.

[flindeberg]

1 hour ago, thedarthtux said:

Still can't believe my top recommendation for a newbie Linux distro is Arch

In the long run, i.e., using a Linux distribution as a main driver for all purposes for a month or so, interoperability always comes out on top in terms of user friendliness. And when it comes to interoperability between distribution and packages, the design choices of Arch and pacman blows everything else out of the water (pacman is the package manager in Arch and Arch-based distributions). Due to the design of Arch, and its derivatives, it is much harder to f*ck up Arch than distributions which tightly bundle, for example, UI-components.

 

As an example of a lack of technical interoperability between distribution and packages, PopOS. System76, the commercial creator and maintainer of PopOS, modifies packages in PopOS to "do more" or "become better", but this creates compatibility conflicts in all kinds of ways. See, as an example, the long standing conflict between Gnome and System76; https://blogs.gnome.org/christopherdavis/2021/11/10/system76-how-not-to-collaborate/,  https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/qqit79/system76_a_case_study_on_how_not_to_collaborate/ etc. Now, I should be very clear that the System76 and Gnome issues are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, and no party is which I would consider even remotely close to innocent.

 

TLDR; On the one hand, operating systems such as PopOS and Windows are in dependency hell and try to hide it from the user, and Microsoft arguably does a better job than System76. On the other hand, operating systems such as Arch (and Garuda and Manjaro to a lesser extent) tries to avoid dependency hell itself by avoiding dependencies and creating their own package manager to further ease dependency hell between proprietary and open source components.

 

[Abhijiths0098]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, emosun said:

See this is more or less what I was trying to squeeze out of you.

 

Its the superiority complex that the more unfavorable side of the community has that insists that the same people who quickly adapted smartphones in the past decade into their lives are not capable of using an OS that uses the same hardware but is somewhat different.

 

Its the mindset that a community needs to fall back on in order to explain the issue without blaming themselves. The old " theres nothing wrong with us its the entire world that has a problem" situation.

 

Ive found that the entire world quickly adapts to most changes. Which is noticeable mostly in mobile OS versions that are not like windows at all. At no real point would I consider all of planet earth to be more lazy or unwilling to learn than just me.

 

Anyway, I think this conversation has run its course to exactly where I knew it would go so ill end my involvement here and wait for the enevitable video explaining the same thing again.

what's the problem with his statement?? There are distros which are so easy to work with little effort , the people who came from windows are mostly babysitted  by windows , they get everything in one click. In linux , you have to use some terminal commands too . For me , that's the only difference . It is not like terminal is huge black hole , if you want help you will get , if your ego is in the way you will end up in trouble. Don't see the 'popularity' issue only from user's perspective , see it from the devs eyes also , they want it to be popular among other things , unless it is some huge coporate like canonical , it is difficult for them to do so

[maplepants]

6 hours ago, Abhijiths0098 said:

It is not like terminal is huge black hole , if you want help you will get , if your ego is in the way you will end up in trouble.

I don't think this attitude is helpful for us Linux/Unix fans to take. I'm as big a terminal fan as the next guy, and I don't install desktop environments on my Linux machines (aside from Raspberry Pi OS, where in comes pre-installed and I don't go through the hassle of removing it). But I would not pretend that using a terminal is extremely easy for new comers.

 

If you're used to a GUI, you can't switch your brain over right away to using a terminal. Even basic stuff like `man someapp` on `someapp -h` are impossible to simply divine from the either. You either know them, or you don't. If somebody wants to learn how to use a terminal, I agree that it's very doable and anyone interested in doing it can. However, if someone just wants to do a task and is using an OS with a GUI, I think it's fair for them to consider being forced to use the terminal as a failure of that Desktop GUI.

[flindeberg]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:58 AM, flindeberg said:

As an example of a lack of technical interoperability between distribution and packages, PopOS. System76, the commercial creator and maintainer of PopOS, modifies packages in PopOS to "do more" or "become better", but this creates compatibility conflicts in all kinds of ways.

It seem this was the cause of issue this time around as well, see, for example, https://github.com/pop-os/apt/pull/1, for a short overview and the suggested solution.

[Abhijiths0098]

20 hours ago, maplepants said:

I don't think this attitude is helpful for us Linux/Unix fans to take. I'm as big a terminal fan as the next guy, and I don't install desktop environments on my Linux machines (aside from Raspberry Pi OS, where in comes pre-installed and I don't go through the hassle of removing it). But I would not pretend that using a terminal is extremely easy for new comers.

 

If you're used to a GUI, you can't switch your brain over right away to using a terminal. Even basic stuff like `man someapp` on `someapp -h` are impossible to simply divine from the either. You either know them, or you don't. If somebody wants to learn how to use a terminal, I agree that it's very doable and anyone interested in doing it can. However, if someone just wants to do a task and is using an OS with a GUI, I think it's fair for them to consider being forced to use the terminal as a failure of that Desktop GUI.

What I meant was if anyone has a doubt , there are people who will help in that . Some people has huge ego to ask help . I know some elitist linux nerds are pain in the back but there are also people who will help , you can just ask in the appropriate forums for help. I am sure they will help. Manjaro community helped me very much in using manjaro. Also, you can use terminal as little as you want , but believe me terminal is the fastest way to do stuff . Thanks to terminal , i am doing most of my stuff doing keyboard instead of mouse/trackpad. If someone gets use to it , they will love it. 

[maplepants]

29 minutes ago, Abhijiths0098 said:

What I meant was if anyone has a doubt , there are people who will help in that . Some people has huge ego to ask help .

I disagree that ego is the reason people don't want to ask for help, or are mad at the answer that they get. It's been a few years since I used a Linux desktop environment, but I think it's fair for users to say "either this desktop GUI can do everything I will ever need to do, or linux isn't for me".

[Gimmick21]

5 hours ago, maplepants said:

It's been a few years since I used a Linux desktop environment, but I think it's fair for users to say "either this desktop GUI can do everything I will ever need to do, or linux isn't for me".

No OS with GUI can guarantee that

But the main reason for my reply is:

Linux is not an OS. Linux as base for opensource OS', which are bases for other opensource OS'.. and so on... just creates the great option to build an OS without that much money and man-power. But that does not mean, that the results are automatically great or similar.

 

It's often better to look at distributions as independent OS'. I don't think SteamOS and RedHat Enterprise have much in common.

[Abhijiths0098]

23 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

No OS with GUI can guarantee that

But the main reason for my reply is:

Linux is not an OS. Linux as base for opensource OS', which are bases for other opensource OS'.. and so on... just creates the great option to build an OS without that much money and man-power. But that does not mean, that the results are automatically great or similar.

 

It's often better to look at distributions as independent OS'. I don't think SteamOS and RedHat Enterprise have much in common.

Linux as a kernel and GNU in top is great but some distros or some DEs make it a nightmare to operate , Ubuntu is so bad rn , atleast for me , I will always prefer manjaro , I used for ubuntu for like 3 months thinking it is the only distro but after someone in telegram mentioned there are tons of distros I was distro-hopping for like 1 month after that i settled on manjaro . If I ever do a stupid thing timeshift helps me to revert back to previous snapshot. If I ever gets bored with a theme , I have insane modularity to use to change whatever I want. At the end of the day this is what FOSS community is for , use whatever you want however you want.  Sorry If I was arrogant earlier.

[kanyewestlover911]

On 11/3/2021 at 1:20 PM, emosun said:

I think they are going to discover what ive been saying about linux for years.....

 

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

As a user of arch i agree, when i first started and asked questions to the community would be very upset i didn't already just know everything. 

[maplepants]

14 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

No OS with GUI can guarantee that

But the main reason for my reply is:

Linux is not an OS. Linux as base for opensource OS', which are bases for other opensource OS'.. and so on... just creates the great option to build an OS without that much money and man-power. But that does not mean, that the results are automatically great or similar.

 

It's often better to look at distributions as independent OS'. I don't think SteamOS and RedHat Enterprise have much in common.

For non-developer work loads, Windows and macOS can guarantee that you won't have to use the terminal for anything you want to do. For example, gamers on Windows and gamers on macOS don't ever need to use a terminal unless they're playing a text adventure game. 

 

Linux is absolutely an operating system though. The distros have much more in common than separates them. There are many binaries which you can run on RHEL or SteamOS (or any other debian based distro) without recompiling. The same cannot be said for FreeBSD & macOS, or Windows & Solaris.

 

Like I said above though, I never run a GUI desktop environment on my Linux machines I just think it's fair for people who have used Windows/macOS without the terminal to expect that desktop Linux wouldn't force them to use the terminal either. At work, we used to run a few Windows servers and I complained constantly that you couldn't do everything from the command line over ssh, I had to constantly use stupid msrdp for basic application management tasks. So I get where people like Linus are coming from when they feel like the GUI not doing everything they want is a GUI failure, not a them failure, because I feel the same way about the Windows Server CLI.

[Gimmick21]

53 minutes ago, maplepants said:

For non-developer work loads, Windows and macOS can guarantee that you won't have to use the terminal for anything you want to do. For example, gamers on Windows and gamers on macOS don't ever need to use a terminal unless they're playing a text adventure game. 

 

Linux is absolutely an operating system though. The distros have much more in common than separates them. There are many binaries which you can run on RHEL or SteamOS (or any other debian based distro) without recompiling. The same cannot be said for FreeBSD & macOS, or Windows & Solaris.

 

Like I said above though, I never run a GUI desktop environment on my Linux machines I just think it's fair for people who have used Windows/macOS without the terminal to expect that desktop Linux wouldn't force them to use the terminal either. At work, we used to run a few Windows servers and I complained constantly that you couldn't do everything from the command line over ssh, I had to constantly use stupid msrdp for basic application management tasks. So I get where people like Linus are coming from when they feel like the GUI not doing everything they want is a GUI failure, not a them failure, because I feel the same way about the Windows Server CLI.

Ok, let me be more precise:

For the subset "things you want to do" of "all things that can be done", yes maybe there are OS', that can guarantee that - it depends on what you are doing. Last time I used the terminal in Windows 10 I was trying to fix my network - that added the subset of "things that you may have to do" to the set of "things I did" although I did not want to, and the no-terminal-guarantee was gone

The set of "things I want to do" of my laptop with Lubuntu does not include a single thing, that needs the terminal and I never had to use it.

 

I thought we were talking about the user-experience because of "use terminal, GUI,..." and the user-experience is not the same between distros. If you buy a Steam Deck, I guess it's fair to assume, that you do not have to use the terminal (but maybe not every game you have on Win will work). If you buy a workstation with RedHat that expectation may differ. And I think it makes sense to differentiate between "Windows Server" and "Windows" although they are binary compatible.

 

Different intentions, different experience, different features, different developer -> different OS

 

The problem with expectations and switching the OS is, that you are leaving behind what you expect to get. If you chose a "home user friendly" Linux-OS, I think it's reasonable to expect, that it is build around things, that can be done without terminal - guaranteed as you said. But are those features identical with those you need? I don't know and the company behind the distro does not know

[HumbleProblems]

4 hours ago, I-Use-Arch-BTW said:

As a user of arch i agree, when i first started and asked questions to the community would be very upset i didn't already just know everything. 

Well, to be fair: https://wiki.archlinux.org/

A lot of users asking for help with Arch, are simply given a link to the right page on the wiki with a "RTFM" thrown in, but this is Arch we are talking about, not elementryOS.  It's kinda expected that you would RTFM for Arch.  I use Arch (well EndeavourOS, because I no longer hate myself), and if someone comes asking me a question about anything that is covered in the wiki, they are gonna get a wiki url as a response.

[thedarthtux]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:32 AM, maplepants said:

So even though I'd like for you to be right about the future of Linux gaming, and the Steam Deck, I think we can't really ignore Valve's track record here. If the sales of the Steam Deck in the first month don't absolutely floor Valve's accounting department, they'll drop the product and its OS pretty quickly.

Not sure if you saw this Valve Steam Deck Developer Event

 

https://www.bitchute.com/video/P7e2A7yscGHj/

 

Can't remember if they did this for the Steam Machines, but this iis why I think Valve have thought the Deck out more than they did the Steam Machines

[Kevitivity]

On 11/3/2021 at 11:20 AM, emosun said:

I think they are going to discover what ive been saying about linux for years.....

 

The only thing wrong with linux is the people/community that gatekeep it from being useable by the masses. They dont want linux to be popular, thus it isnt. 

I disagree re: gatekeepers. I've been using Linux since the redhat's first release in 1995. Back then you could literally destroy your monitor if you miss configured your X11 settings.

 

What brought me to Linux in those days was the fact that my hardware wasn't obfuscated by the OS and thus I had much more insight into what was happening on my computer. The abundance of choice was cool too. I could run any desktop env I wanted and tweak any of them to my hearts content.

I broke things a lot, but I always  had access to fellow hackers and Open Source enthusiasts online via usenet, IRC, etc.

 

I encountered many "grey beards" who were rude when answering my naive questions, but I never let that slow me down. Today I'm a professional Linux engineer in the aerospace industry with over 25 years experience.

Linux gaming will get there, sooner than you think. It's a relatively new frontier for Linux, but it's only going to get better.

 

[thedarthtux]

On 11/7/2021 at 2:30 PM, emosun said:

Well looks like its time for me to duck out again. 

 

Im always amazed when the real thought process comes out in these "discussions". It basically reminds me to not bother having them when you actually get the root of someones thinking to come to the surface. It draws a lot of parallels to other more controversial topics and reminds me not to even try and engage becuase I inow exactly where its gonna go.

As passionately as @Switchedtolinux gets, everything he says is exactly why I said pre-install research is extremely important before bumping something you know and have used for decades and jumping into something you have no real clue about but are interested in switching to.

 

https://odysee.com/@switchedtolinux:0/my-thoughts-on-the-linus-tech-tips-linux:6

 

It took me a couple of years of dual booting Windows and Linux and Linux distro hoping before I got to where I found what I liked from a personality and workflow standpoint. And I have been using Linux since 2007 and exclusively since late 2014. That is years of experience that people on forums like this can tap into and learn from so as to not go through the pains and struggles I and other did getting into Linux. And there is A LOT that I don't know and am learning everyday, but that is really on things specific to my workflow in Linux (e.g. learning KDenLive or DaVinci Resolve for video editing, installing R/RStudio, and eclipse packages, finding and installing fonts to use in LibreOffice and/or LyX for academic/professional publications, learning GIMP, etc) and not necessarily a Linux issue.

 

The biggest part of the switch is about changing ones mindset and understanding workflows, hardware, and software choices will change. Over the past few years, I have come to realise the only thing I did in Windows that does have Linux alternatives are games but even then I had to make the conscious decision to only buy games and hardware that supports Linux, hence my and many other Linux users choice of using AMD GPUs over Nvidia, my choice of using a BlackMagicDesign capture card over the others despite the cost, or choice of Valve/Steam over EPIC, Ubisoft or others. In fact even now, the only VR headset that truly supports Linux is the Valve Index; so if I do get a VR headset I would lean towards get an Index. However even there, Valve have done such an amazing job championing the Vulkan API, WINE/Proton, native Linux games, and of late getting Easy anti-cheat and Battleeye anti-cheat support for native Linux and through WINE/Proton.

 

Is Linux perfect? No! Is there a learning curve? Yes! But that doesn't mean Linux users have a superiority complex or anything controversial like a Linux vs Windows thing, it is just people speaking from experience using Linux.

 

PS//

Even when I switched this summer from ElementaryOS (Ubuntu LTS) to Garuda Linux (Arch), I did exactly what @Switchedtolinux said in his video. I installed Garuda on my old laptop and spent a week or so getting used to it before rolling it out to my workstation and then my lastly gaming rig. There were things I discovered that I didn't like such as Nvidia Optimus for GPU switching since I used my Nvidia card only for CUDA workloads and not as the primary GPU. But very few people have dual discrete GPU builds and certainly even fewer a using both an AMD and Nvidia GPU in the same build.

[thedarthtux]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:22 PM, HumbleProblems said:

Well, to be fair: https://wiki.archlinux.org/

A lot of users asking for help with Arch, are simply given a link to the right page on the wiki with a "RTFM" thrown in, but this is Arch we are talking about, not elementryOS.  It's kinda expected that you would RTFM for Arch.  I use Arch (well EndeavourOS, because I no longer hate myself), and if someone comes asking me a question about anything that is covered in the wiki, they are gonna get a wiki url as a response.

To be honest, before discovering Garuda Linux, Arch was too scary and confusing because

1. it didn't have an easy installer so was just only slightly better than Gentoo and 
2. the Arch wiki can descend into a wall of text that is just difficult to read (I personally have an issue when I see too much text on a long scrolling page without something to break the monotony)

so if you are new to Linux, don't have the time and patience to read the wiki when trying to get something done, Arch just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It could even just be that the Arch wiki needs to be redesigned to make it more readable. I have the same issue with Star Citizen's Transmission posts (case in point https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18397-Server-Meshing-And-Persistent-Streaming-Q-A) and I spend pretty much all my time playing that game above all other games.

 

Anyway that RTFM attitude when the manual is a wall of text is something I've felt the Arch community really don't necessarily understand and so some of the people in the forums come across as egotistical arrogant arses. I used ElementaryOS for the longest time and only stopped when it was taking a long time for them to release ElementaryOS 6. I was no longer able to update my Mesa drivers via the PPA I was using and though I don't want to be in this situation in the future because I don't know how long it would take to release. That was really when I start looking for another distro and stumbled on Garuda and noticed how more helpful their forum was at helping with trouble shooting than the main Arch forum.

[D-reaper]

The fact that Linus is jumping in head first without any forethought, is why it's not a pleasant experience for him. He's doing more advanced stuff which had revolved around Windows his whole life. And he's been trying to replicate that using Linux. It isn't going to work; especially with some of the hardware he has; to which those companies don't support Linux (or that well; AKA Nvidia). He needs to research what will work and what will not. Something tells me he's doing all this to show the POV of a new Linux user who does more advanced stuff on Windows already and is trying to jump right into Linux. It doesn't work.

 

Gaming would also probably not be that hard if he just didn't use a Nvidia card (former Nvidia user here, so I can vouch for this). Same for streaming. So I'd say that his former hardware choices in general (especially with the GOXLR) as a Windows user is having detrimental effects while using Linux. Hence why both him and Luke are having their own separate issues (Luke, significantly less from what I saw).

 

But for people like my mom, sister or nephew, they don't care as long as they can see the Firefox icon. And without Nvidia in their lives, it just makes things way easier (and mine). This is also why Chromebooks are such a success for those kinds of users. Because web browsing and streaming is all they do.

[ezzep]

So I just watched the Chris Titus reaction, which I wanted Chris's humor and also professionalism with his remarks. The youtube comments were....different. So this is just me butting in, putting my two cents in. Sort of a reminiscence of my struggle with linux.

 

I started using linux in 2006, way back in the dark of ages. Before Firefox was at version 1.0. Before Microsoft released SP2 for XP. Before Microsoft released a firewall for XP. I did it on a Compaq desktop, which had a slow IDE drive, a Pentium III @ 733mhz, with 512 MB ram, and onboard video. Shutters at the memory of onboard video. Also USB 1.1? It wasn't quite 2.0 speeds. Also lots of pirated software. I no longer pirate these days as open source and Steam have met my needs.

 

I started using linux, out of curiosity, and not having enough money to pay for a true XP license at the time. I really needed something that would get me through my term papers, or whatever they call those important things you write for passing college classes. So away we went on distrowatch.com. Thousands of releases then. (No Ubuntu at the time, so thankful for that). I could remember some commands from DOS...ah DOS...the greatest and simplest! No stupid fancy eyecandy! No firewall needed at the time! Just simple and crude. Not rude, like sitting on a cactus. More like lava rock. Not comfortable enough to sleep on, but enough to calm the nerves and grab a much needed rest and snack.

Like I said, I wanted something that was easy enough to learn, but powerful enough to get my papers done. There were lots of cool looking ones. Mandriva, Fedora, Suse. I picked SUSE. Also a fellow geek had his hands on an actual purchased copy, so I could use his. Got through the install. That onboard video was a pain. Back in the day, YaST had a section for customizing your display, called Sax2. Or maybe it was just SaX. Either way, I finally got my 3d acceleration working. No more screen tearing anytime something moved on the screen. I also found out about different user interfaces, and that you could customize the way your experience was. Still can do that. OK, I got through college, along with probably 30 or 40 different versions of linux on CD. Came home back to dialup and no money, no job, no hope. Got active in my church, and that helped some. Got a job at Dell Tech Support. I found out I HATE DOING TECH SUPPORT OVER THE PHONE. And I hated IE even more, because they wouldn't let us use Firefox. Nothing like having 50 IE windows open, and not remembering which one had the customer info on it. Even worse, not remembering to hit that blasted button by my phone to get notes written up. And worse yet, I had a time limit on how much time I could take. I hated that job.

3 months later, I'm working in target, still going through the linux scene. Dynabolic, Xandros, Linspire. They all sucked in some way. Maybe it was getting video drivers installed. SUSE was so simple--enable a few repos, download a few source rpms, install. Then download the driver from Nvidia, chmod 755, execute installer via su -c, yes, yes, yes, wait, reboot, done.  Quit target to build trusses. I love it! Not as much as I did then, but it's a job. So, I finally tried Gentoo. The beast of them all. The most customizable version of linux out there. Compiled it on my first laptop, a Gateway....something. Celeron M 1.5ghz with DDR2! Moving up in the world! MS still had XP going as their flagship. It worked, and then I borked things up somehow. Ubuntu came out around this time too I think. Everyone looooves Ubuntu. Pop! OS is built on Ubuntu, did you know that? They just changed themes, added a few cool things, changed names, links, and other things. But it's Ubuntu underneath. Which is Debian underneath. I'm not sure what's after Debian. Anyway, the Ubuntu explosion took off. Kubuntu came out, with a crippled KDE control center. Never understood why they did that. It's like releasing Windows without a start menu. Just a desktop.  Also Suse came out with 10.1 or was it 10.2? They introduced this thing called zypper? Maybe not zypper, but Yast was broke. Thus, the downfall of Suse. A restructuring took place, and it hasn't been the same since. Time to take another spin at the distrowheel. Mandriva was no longer in business. That left....a bunch of other small time distros which probably no longer exist, Ubuntu and it's inbred family, which Ubuntu put an end to, and other OS like FreeBSD, Solaris, Minix, Darwin, and React OS. I tried BSD, and that was fun to use. But bad driver experience. Solaris was fun, but I couldn't get USB drivers working on my laptop. No wifi or ethernet either. Fun to look at. Minix and Darwin both were flukes. and React wasn't ready for much of anything. Down the linux rabbithole I went. Down down down. Until I met SimplyMepis and Slackware.

Mepis was awesome, except when a kernel update came through. I couldn't ever use the new kernel because I had to change something or do something that should have been automated. Slackware was great! I finally learned how to daily drive linux, and using the terminal. It was great. And then I got way more into gaming, got married, hated switching back and forth, so gave in and used Windows 7 for a very long time. Got forced into 10. And hear I am, typing away in a Firefox window on 10. Divorced for a couple of years.

 

I've kept up with linux, trying it hear and there. I guess my reason for not sticking with linux...gpu issues, updates that really don't matter in the long run, and the ever changing way that things are done. I'd say suse is my choice, but it's not. Systemd changed everything, so I can't really get my wifi working on suse. And this is on a Lenovo T430 Thinkpad with Optimus. Oh, did I fail to mention that? Yeah, um, I guess my Nvidia NVS 5400m isn't good enough for Proton. I'd have to downgrade the driver version or something like that. And we all know how new hardware works with linux. sigh.... That was on Mepis that I got my wifi to work. And I just don't like Ubuntu for much. If I wanted a tablet UI, I would buy a tablet. Anyway, I hope that helps. Always read the documents. Ask for help. Remember that linux is not designed for one person. It's designed for many. So don't expect everything to work. On the other hand, you can use 10, but expect telemetry to be used. I think that's where linux lost it's shine. Telemetry got it's place. It's used in everything, and has created lazy programming to counter bugs, memory leaks, etc. Also creating a disconnect between the company that creates and the users that use. When's the last time that you found a use for MS Windows, outside of gaming and web usage?

[Alexeygridnev1993]

I do have a feeling that, instead of getting better, desktop Linux is stagnating, if not getting outright worse. I started to use Linux around 2008-2009 by installing Ubuntu on my white Macbook (I was just curious, and it felt kinda perverted to do that ). And guess what? It just worked! Only the two-finger touch on a touchpad didn't work, but at that time it didn't exist on Windows laptops either. The application center was already in place (and it didn't try to randomly remove my GUI ), the interaction with the terminal was infrequent, in short - mostly goos experience.

 

What do we have now?

1) Fragmentation just got outrageous. You get forks of a fork of a fork marketed as "the most user-friendly distro out there" (like PopOS or ZorinOS or whatever), and, in reality, as only tiny teams of developers are working of those forks, these forks end up less stable and more buggy than what they are based on. Also, even though the changes to the base distros are not too big, they are still big enough to create some incompatibilities and cause general confusion among the users (who have to guess whether the manual from Debian or Ubuntu is going to work on PopOS or not, assuming that they will even try to google for an Ubuntu manual).

 

Honestly, if I was System76, I would have stopped the development of PopOS and would have instead focused on making sure that plain vanilla Ubuntu just works on their hardware.

 

2) Canonical realised very clearly that there is no way a Desktop Linux can make money. Selling binaries for an open source product, while not illegal, is pretty stupid as anyone can just compile the binary themselves and distribute it for free legally; and trying to earn money on an advertisement deal with Amazon caused an outcry because one of the main reasons for people to switch to Linux is precisely trying to avoid surveillance from companies like Amazon. Donations are also tiny. So, Canonical turned Ubuntu into server-first system and cannot really be bothered about the desktop. And, apart from Canonical, no one else of relevance even tried to create a desktop-first Linux distro (ignoring ChromeOS).

 

3) As a result of points 1 and 2, desktop features of Linux OSes are exactly where they were 10 years ago. App Stores still suck; if something goes wrong, they just silently fail without giving any indication as to what went wrong and what you as a user can do about it. I just install most of the software via terminal because I know that, if something goes wrong, I'll have to open the terminal anyway. Simple functions like creating an desktop shortcut require a terminal (even though I can probably write some basic GUI for doing so in one evening while drinking beer). Same with task scheduling (any GUI with the same functionality as Windows Task Scheduler which would allow to graphically manage systemd units? Or AT LEAST comvenient tools for graphically add programs to / remove from Autostart)?

 

I still like Linux and like using it just out of principle. But it doesn't mean it's great, and it doesn't even mean it's getting better.