is VA contrast THAT much better than IPS?

[esphacks]

I've had an IPS 1440p for a while and I love the colors and motion clarity but the blacks are atrociously bad, even my DLP projector does better blacks

 

so I've read that VA does better at the cost of motion clarity and colors, but how much better is it? how close does it get to OLED? is it only "better" when next to an IPS glowing pure grey? or does it look just as bad as IPS when next to an OLED panel?

[badreg]

VA panels typically have 2-2.5x the contrast levels as IPS panels. After calibration, my IPS panels measure around 750:1, while my VA panel measures 1800:1. The black levels on the VA are noticeably darker than IPS, even without comparing side by side, but it's also nowhere close to OLED.

[esphacks]

11 minutes ago, badreg said:

VA panels typically have 2-2.5x the contrast levels as IPS panels. After calibration, my IPS panels measure around 750:1, while my VA panel measures 1800:1. The black levels on the VA are noticeably darker than IPS, even without comparing side by side, but it's also nowhere close to OLED.

if you only ever used the VA, would you still notice the awful blacks? because I think thats the main issue with my IPS, the blacks are soo bad I dont even need a reference to notice

 

[xg32]

2 minutes ago, esphacks said:

if you only ever used the VA, would you still notice the awful blacks? because I think thats the main issue with my IPS, the blacks are soo bad I dont even need a reference to notice

 

blacks don't really exist on most ips monitors (the glow), though i notice the smearing on VA even more, i'd probably never use a VA monitor long term

[badreg]

8 minutes ago, esphacks said:

if you only ever used the VA, would you still notice the awful blacks? because I think thats the main issue with my IPS, the blacks are soo bad I dont even need a reference to notice

 

In a dark room, yes, but normally no. However, this is also true for my IPS panel, which I use for color critical work. IPS glows, but it's not something that should affect your experience in a well-lit environment. Maybe you just have particularly bad glow on your panel.

[Roswell]

IPS black levels really depend on the quality of the panel. My notebook is IPS and has a 1500:1 ratio and pretty deep blacks but I’ve also used other IPS panels that don’t come anywhere close to it.

[Chris Pratt]

Yes. You can actually get a somewhat decent HDR experience on a DisplayHDR 400 or 600 VA panel, but HDR on IPS is hot garbage without FALD, regardless of what so-called certification it may have. It's not OLED, though. Not even close.

 

As far as blur and ghosting goes, yes, that's an inherent weak point for VA. Though, it's only a real issue for eSports and other fast reaction time titles. You'll barely notice it in most AAA titles. You can seek out one with black frame insertion. That will solve most of the issues, at the cost of a more dimmed display.

 

Color accuracy is not really an issue any more. There's VA panels with better color accuracy than some IPS at this point.

[Daethz]

Tried a VA Panel once (one of the gaming ultrawides), once you see the shadows smearing you will never VA panel again.

[esphacks]

in short: LCD bad

 

can LG hurry with up a CX32? jeez

[Stahlmann]

14 minutes ago, Daethz said:

Tried a VA Panel once (one of the gaming ultrawides), once you see the shadows smearing you will never VA panel again.

Then you had a bad one.

 

VA smearing will mostly occur in the transitions from black to very dark greys. All the competitive games where response times matter won't be dark enough to make smearing an issue. And all the games that can bring up some smearing will not be a game where response time matters.

 

I'd personally get a good VA monitor over a good IPS one.

 

1 hour ago, badreg said:

VA panels typically have 2-2.5x the contrast levels as IPS panels. After calibration, my IPS panels measure around 750:1, while my VA panel measures 1800:1. The black levels on the VA are noticeably darker than IPS, even without comparing side by side, but it's also nowhere close to OLED.

The only IPS displays i know of with that bad of a contrast ratio are LG's nano IPS panels.

Other than that the majority of IPS monitors sits around 1000-1200:1. Most VA monitors sit between 2000-2500:1. Of course there are good outlieres and bad outlieres in both of them.

 

If image quality in general is of concern, VA is better because of the higher contrast. And as @Chris Pratt said, the color reproduction and accuracity of good VA panel is comparable to IPS. That's the main reason why any high-end LCD TV uses a VA panel instead of an IPS one.

 

8 minutes ago, esphacks said:

in short: LCD bad

 

can LG hurry with up a CX32? jeez

Not really true. OLED has it's own drawbacks which will keep me from getting one as a main monitor. I do have a C9 hooked up to my PC, but it's only used for occational gaming when i want to use a controller and get more of a "console feeling".

 

I do also have an Asus PG35VQ, which i can use as a reference for a good VA panel with 512 zone FALD backlight.

 

I was a strong believer of OLED in the past, but after having this monitor, my next TV will likely not be OLED again. The PG35VQ delivers a much better HDR experience. And the black levels can come very close to OLED thanks to the local dimming.

[Daethz]

6 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Then you had a bad one.

 

VA smearing will mostly occur in the transitions from black to very dark greys. All the competitive games where response times matter won't be dark enough to make smearing an issue. And all the games that can bring up some smearing will not be a game where response time matters.

It was a Acer Z35P

was one of the worst monitors I have ever experienced.

-And I noticed it a lot in the desert in assassins creed origins 

[Stahlmann]

4 minutes ago, Daethz said:

It was a Acer Z35P

was one of the worst monitors I have ever experienced.

-And I noticed it a lot in the desert in assassins creed origins 

If you noticed it in bright parts then it was NOT the inherent VA smearing. That only occurs in very dark transitions like i said above. Then that monitor was just slow overall.

 

Edit: Yes it was one of the older 100-120Hz VA Ultrawides. They were just slow. Most modern VAs are much faster.

[Daethz]

7 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

If you noticed it in bright parts then it was NOT the inherent VA smearing. That only occurs in very dark transitions like i said above. Then that monitor was just slow overall.

 

Edit: Yes it was one of the older 100-120Hz VA Ultrawides. They were just slow. Most modern VAs are much faster.

Do the samsung higher end VA's have any of the smearing? are they good

[Stahlmann]

7 minutes ago, Daethz said:

Do the samsung higher end VA's have any of the smearing? are they good

The Odyssey G7 and G9 are the first VA's that don't even have dark smearing anymore, showing that even this inherent issue can be overcome.

[SolarNova]

The G7 specifically has the best overall response for a VA available atm, the G9 is technically faster but has more overshoot.

 

As for contrast between VA and IPS. Typically VA has between 2 and 3 times the contrast ratio of IPS, but importantly VA also tend to have a lower black level and dont suffer IPS glow.

 

Be forewarned though, most VA's have issue with dark transitions, and in some scenerios this can cause significant visual artifacts.

Example of slow dark transitions causing issues.

Monitor: AOC CQ27G2

rtings review : https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/aoc/cq27g2

Spoiler

 

 

[badreg]

10 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Other than that the majority of IPS monitors sits around 1000-1200:1. Most VA monitors sit between 2000-2500:1.

There's a difference between what displays are spec'd at, and what they measure at. Keep in mind that calibration and profiling further reduces the contrast ratio.

 

My IPS panel is spec'd for 1000:1, but measures at 750:1 with a colorimeter. Likewise, my VA panel is spec'd for 2000:1, but measures at 1800:1.

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, badreg said:

There's a difference between what displays are spec'd at, and what they measure at. Keep in mind that calibration and profiling further reduces the contrast ratio.

 

My IPS panel is spec'd for 1000:1, but measures at 750:1 with a colorimeter. Likewise, my VA panel is spec'd for 2000:1, but measures at 1800:1.

I was talking about actual measured values, not specs. I'm very aware that 99% of monitor specs are just straight up lies. LG specs it's nanoIPS monitors at 1000:1, but realistically they all fall to 750-850:1. Plus calibration will not always reduce contrast. Sometimes it will, but with some monitors you don't lose any contrast when calibrating. Out of all the monitors i had and calibrated (using measurement hardware, not by eye), about 60% i'd say didn't lose any contrast.

[badreg]

23 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Out of all the monitors i had and calibrated (using measurement hardware, not by eye), about 60% i'd say didn't lose any contrast.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to spec values, and not measured values. Seems like IPS panels have improved around 20% over the past few years.

 

However, it is impossible to not lose any contrast after profiling an LED backlit display. Profiling a display with a WLED or GB LED backlight involves reducing the intensity of the blue and green subpixels to match the brightness of the red subpixels to set a D65 white point. This reduces the luminance of the white point, but the luminance of the black point is unaffected, which reduces the contrast ratio.

 

How are you able to calibrate and profile, such that the contrast ratio is unaffected?

[Stahlmann]

13 minutes ago, badreg said:

However, it is impossible to not lose any contrast after profiling an LED backlit display. Profiling a display with a WLED or GB LED backlight involves reducing the intensity of the blue and green subpixels to match the brightness of the red subpixels to set a D65 white point. This reduces the luminance of the white point, but the luminance of the black point is unaffected, which reduces the contrast ratio.

 

How are you able to calibrate and profile, such that the contrast ratio is unaffected?

Tbh i don't really have much knowledge on how calibration software works behind the scenes. I just press the buttons and see the results.

 

I'm using DisplayCal as a software. First i use the integrated too "measure uncalibrated display" to see how it stacks up in general. Then i set it to sRGB (because that's what i want to calibrate to), set the proper correction (in my case "LED LCD with Quantum Dots" as i have the Asus PG35VQ, which is a QLED VA monitor), and then hit calibrate and profile. After the calibration is complete i do a quick color checker and use the tool "measure calibrated display" to see where i ended up. For me most of the displays i calibrated this way didn't have a noticeable contrast dropoff. To be clear, most dislpays have had some sort of dropoff, but i don't consider a drop from 950:1 to 920:1 (just an example) being a real drop in contrast. Technically it is, but to me it's not noticeable at all. Most displays that have had bad contrast after calibration had a bad native contrast to begin with.

 

If i'm doing anything wrong in a major way when calibrating let me know.

 

Edit: As a colorimeter i'm using the i1Display Pro Plus.

 

Edit 2: I'm also using the "interactive display setting" thingy to set the whitepoint and brightness as close to my target (6500K / 150nits) using the monitor OSD before the calibration starts.

[CTR640]

Lol, look at all the replies pissing pn VA.

 

I once had an IPS monitor and it's a awful piece of shit. And no, it was not a cheap one. It was Asus MX279H and the blacks is very much grey.

Since then, I've never bothered with that type of panel.

 

I value blacks so either VA or OLED. But the biggest issue with LED is: backlight bleedings. I have zero-tolerance for that shit.

Fortunately my current VA monitor doesn't have that, also no smearing.

[Stahlmann]

2 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Lol, look at all the replies pissing pn VA.

 

I once had an IPS monitor and it's a awful piece of shit. And no, it was not a cheap one. It was Asus MX279H and the blacks is very much grey.

Since then, I've never bothered with that type of panel.

 

I vaue blacks so either VA or OLED. But the biggest issue with LED is: backlight bleedings. I have zero-tolerance for that shit.

Fortunately my current VA monitor doesn't have that, also no smearing.

Agreed, most people bash on VA but realistically most of them (if ever) used either old VAs or budget ones. Good VAs can be better than IPS.

[CTR640]

1 minute ago, Stahlmann said:

Agreed, most people bash on VA but realistically most of them (if ever) used either old VAs or budget ones. Good VAs can be better than IPS.

IKR. You won't believe my current VA monitor is BenQ GW2280 Cheap ass VA of 99€ and yet it has very good blacks, no smearing and much less ghosting. Nights in GTA looks damn nice for example. IPS can maybe produce better colors but let's be honest, it's very subjective.

[badreg]

3 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

If i'm doing anything wrong in a major way when calibrating let me know.

Everything you are doing sounds about right. There are more advanced settings that you can dig into in DisplayCal, but the most important one is using the right correction for your colorimeter and panel backlight. I follow more or less the same procedure when profiling my displays with an i1 Display Pro.

 

TFT Central's review of the PG35VQ showed a reduction from 2080:1 to 1781:1 after calibration. The calibration was done with a spectrophotometer, which takes the correction out of the picture. The ~15% reduction in contrast post-calibration is typical for nearly all LED backlit displays, both in my own experience and from the database of reviews on TFT Central, so I am very curious why you aren't seeing similar results from your calibrations.

 

https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/asus_rog_swift_pg35vq.htm#brightness

[Stahlmann]

7 hours ago, badreg said:

TFT Central's review of the PG35VQ showed a reduction from 2080:1 to 1781:1 after calibration. The calibration was done with a spectrophotometer, which takes the correction out of the picture. The ~15% reduction in contrast post-calibration is typical for nearly all LED backlit displays, both in my own experience and from the database of reviews on TFT Central, so I am very curious why you aren't seeing similar results from your calibrations.

 

https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/asus_rog_swift_pg35vq.htm#brightness

Afaik TFT central kept the FALD backlight disabled for all of their testing, which is not how the monitor is intended to be used. I keep the FALD backlight on even in SDR so my contrast is unmeasureably high either way. My blacks are 0.0000 nits and my whites are 150 nits (target value), so DisplayCal gives me a contrast value of 1:1.

 

But it's also worth mentioning that my unit has superb color accuracity even without any ICC profiles, so i keep teh ICC disabled either way. I just run in the sRGB color space and adjusted my white point and brightness in the OSD. This gives me deltaE values almost as good as when fully calibrated.

[esphacks]

well I was mostly firm on staying IPS but it seems like VA has been improving while IPS remains on "yay colors" since forever, given how subjective color reproduction can be vs contrast which is much more noticeable, would you guys say VA's contrast advantage outweighs IPS's colors? as in, the contrast difference is more impactful to the user than the "slightly" better colors on IPS? given a VA panel with little or no smearing, that would seem like the best choice then