New captcha system for LTT forums?

[LePawel]

Dear LMG,

Please Implement this

[Rorgash]

agreed

[The_Evenger]

Personally, I like this, it helps people use proper grammar, and will make it easier for all of us.

 

plus, it will make it harder for those spam bots.

[flibberdipper]

My god yes.

[ObeseWalrus]

YES

[helping]

Disagree,

 

even though it was already mentioned, I don't really think it's necessary since that would also test English proficiency. It's not really a big deal and only a small deterrent for people that it's intended to block, and remains a deterrent to people that it doesn't intend to block.

 

Consider that the forums are a pretty large international community, and while English is the primary language we can at least be accommodating to legitimate people that are really trying but not quite solid on their English. 

 

It might be annoying for say, someone from Germany or China (for example) who are not studying English as their primary second language, while having very little if any effect on rogue and spam posters. 

 

 

The current system works fine as is. The shortcomings of it are the same with this. This only adds another barrier to entry against the people that we don't really need to try to keep out. Changing it to this would be very little if any benefit for the sake of an added hindrance; expecting people without strong English to be more proficient than some people that actually speak English. 

[One Who Craves Souls]

Disagree,

 

even though it was already mentioned, I don't really think it's necessary since that would also test English proficiency. It's not really a big deal and only a small deterrent for people that it's intended to block, and remains a deterrent to people that it doesn't intend to block.

 

Consider that the forums are a pretty large international community, and while English is the primary language we can at least be accommodating to legitimate people that are really trying but not quite solid on their English. 

 

It might be annoying for say, someone from Germany or China (for example) who are not studying English as their primary second language, while having very little if any effect on rogue and spam posters. 

 

 

The current system works fine as is. The shortcomings of it are the same with this. This only adds another barrier to entry against the people that we don't really need to try to keep out. Changing it to this would be very little if any benefit for the sake of an added hindrance; expecting people without strong English to be more proficient than some people that actually speak English. 

This

 

English is not my first language, I try my best but  I do commit grammar errors... does that disqualify me as a member of this community? 

[LePawel]

Disagree,

 

even though it was already mentioned, I don't really think it's necessary since that would also test English proficiency. It's not really a big deal and only a small deterrent for people that it's intended to block, and remains a deterrent to people that it doesn't intend to block.

 

Consider that the forums are a pretty large international community, and while English is the primary language we can at least be accommodating to legitimate people that are really trying but not quite solid on their English. 

 

It might be annoying for say, someone from Germany or China (for example) who are not studying English as their primary second language, while having very little if any effect on rogue and spam posters. 

 

 

The current system works fine as is. The shortcomings of it are the same with this. This only adds another barrier to entry against the people that we don't really need to try to keep out. Changing it to this would be very little if any benefit for the sake of an added hindrance; expecting people without strong English to be more proficient than some people that actually speak English. 

Nope. English is not my first language, and most English teacher in UK will tell you how foreigners pay much more attention to grammar and proper word/sentence structure then (yes yes, 'than' ) native English speakers. Their (mhmm..) used to this language and know that even if they make those lame shortcuts/mistakes, people will still understand, it's stuck in they're (haaaaa) minds. It's same story for the Polish not including ąćęńłóżźś when typing because you have to press alt to do it, and Poles will understand it without a problem 99% of the time anyway.

[helping]

Nope. English is not my first language, and most English teacher in UK will tell you how foreigners pay much more attention to grammar and proper word/sentence structure then (yes yes, 'than' ) native English speakers. Their (mhmm..) used to this language and know that even if they make those lame shortcuts/mistakes, people will still understand, it's stuck in they're (haaaaa) minds. It's same story for the Polish not including ąćęńłóżźś when typing because you have to press alt to do it, and Poles will understand it without a problem 99% of the time anyway.

You misunderstood what I wrote. 

 

I don't think you can actually propose a counterargument to what I attempted to convey. 

[PhantomTates]

I'd say, this is option one, if you're too bad at English you may return to the unreadable text as option two. this is far easier(and you can make it multi language).

[LePawel]

You misunderstood what I wrote. 

 

I don't think you can actually propose a counterargument to what I attempted to convey. 

I'm talking about "someone from Germany or China (for example) who are not studying English as their primary second language" and the fact LTT is an international community. Let it be as international as possible, but as you said it's primarily English, and imo should be kept at a reasonable level. It's not asking for a quote from Shakespeare after all. 

 

I'd say, this is option one, if you're too bad at English you may return to the unreadable text as option two. this is far easier(and you can make it multi language).

Yeah you probably could go multi-language like the chrome plugin greetings, next-level captcha on the way.

[matin94]

yes

[helping]

I'm talking about "someone from Germany or China (for example) who are not studying English as their primary second language" and the fact LTT is an international community. Let it be as international as possible, but as you said it's primarily English, and imo should be kept at a reasonable level. It's not asking for a quote from Shakespeare after all. 

for example, meaning including but not limited to. It can be someone from Belize, from Argentina, from Haiti, from Sao Paulo, or from Cambodia.

 

They might not even be learning English and are picking it up as they go, they're only in amateur and possibly can only speak at a very low level. 

Interest in technology and this forum shouldn't necessarily be hostage to specifics of a language. You do not need to even speak a lick of English to have an account, maybe you just want to follow threads, follow Linus' and Slick's posts, like a post, or look at someone's profile. You don't have to post at all to be a member of the forum, and that's not all that membership allows. 

 

I do not expect someone who has never taken a formal English course, but knows enough from learning on their own to get around and an amateur level, to know the exact differences between they're, their, there, fewer, less, much, many, you're, your, than, then, affect, effect etc. Greater possessions over minutiae like these are more likely to be acknowledge by someone taught English, not necessarily learned. English can be done and understood very reasonably without mastering these. Furthermore, as I'm sure you're aware, spoken English is different from written English. Someone might understand and be extremely fluent in spoken English (hence an interest in LMG, this forum is not exclusive), but fair poorly with written English. I can attest to that, my father speaks excellent Spanish but cannot clearly write a sentence. 

 

All you're doing is putting a potential obstacle in front of people that have a legitimate interest, and putting an obstacle in front of people that will get around it regardless. 

The deterrence in the former scenario has a much greater impact than in the latter. It does nothing but annoy people it's not intended to, and is a poke on the shoulder to people it's targeted at. I'm not attacking the legitimacy, but it's not what we need and the usefulness is not useful here beyond measures already in place. 

 

Putting this in place is much too rigid. Indian number system and Latin character system are appropriate since they are much more universal.  A better understanding of English is great, but it shouldn't be a requirement or a criterion since proficiency is not an obligation for participation. 

 

You can run this by some other open minded people, like @looney @MyInnerFred @Vitalius and I'm sure they wouldn't completely disagree. 

 

That is why I can completely tear this idea apart. 

[Blade of Grass]

for example, meaning including but not limited to. It can be someone from Belize, from Argentina, from Haiti, from Sao Paulo, or from Cambodia.

They might not even be learning English and are picking it up as they go, they're only in amateur and possibly can only speak at a very low level.

Interest in technology and this forum shouldn't necessarily be hostage to specifics of a language. You do not need to even speak a lick of English to have an account, maybe you just want to follow threads, follow Linus' and Slick's posts, like a post, or look at someone's profile. You don't have to post at all to be a member of the forum, and that's not all that membership allows.

I do not expect someone who has never taken a formal English course, but knows enough from learning on their own to get around and an amateur level, to know the exact differences between they're, their, there, fewer, less, much, many, you're, your, than, then, affect, effect etc. Greater possessions over minutiae like these are more likely to be acknowledge by someone taught English, not necessarily learned. English can be done and understood very reasonably without mastering these. Furthermore, as I'm sure you're aware, spoken English is different from written English. Someone might understand and be extremely fluent in spoken English (hence an interest in LMG, this forum is not exclusive), but fair poorly with written English. I can attest to that, my father speaks excellent Spanish but cannot clearly write a sentence.

All you're doing is putting a potential obstacle in front of people that have a legitimate interest, and putting an obstacle in front of people that will get around it regardless.

The deterrence in the former scenario has a much greater impact than in the latter. It does nothing but annoy people it's not intended to, and is a poke on the shoulder to people it's targeted at. I'm not attacking the legitimacy, but it's not what we need and the usefulness is not useful here beyond measures already in place.

Putting this in place is much too rigid. Indian number system and Latin character system are appropriate since they are much more universal. A better understanding of English is great, but it shouldn't be a requirement or a criterion since proficiency is not an obligation for participation.

You can run this by some other open minded people, like @looney @MyInnerFred @Vitalius and I'm sure they wouldn't completely disagree.

That is why I can completely tear this idea apart.

Completely agree with you.

This is an open, international forum, why would we possibly want to limit that?

The great thing about this forum is the multiculturalism that we have because we have members from different backgrounds all around the world.

With the written vs spoken thing; my mother can speak and understand Italian decently well, but she says she cannot write anything to save her life.

Although those captcha systems are quite interesting for English only forums for specific geographic locations (Canada/US/GB/etc) where it is easy to assume there is a high level of competency or literacy with written English, but, because our forum is open to anyone, anywhere, that would be a bad assumption.

[LePawel]

...

a) sure they can be from wherever they want, and sure they don't need fluent english, they can for example be Russian, but does that mean LMG should have a Cyrillic version of their websites for that occasion? It's great to be inclusive, but you're using examples that will happen regardless of how this forum operates. There will be someone from Croatia or Sri Lanka that doesn't speak great english as well

"You do not need to even speak a lick of English to have an account, maybe you just want to follow threads, follow Linus' and Slick's posts"

If you doesn't know English, explain to me how you will understand anything posted here?

b ) I don't expect someone who has never taken formal English lessons or have insufficient English knowledge to understand Linus' posts to have interest in registering on this website in the first place. You seem to refuse to acknowledge existence of internet beyond English websites. Back when I was younger and did not know how you say 'motherboard' is in English I was using websites in my native language so I could communicate effectively. I know people who do exactly same thing: why force yourself into constant google translator mode when you have equivalents in your own language.

c) Captcha is enough of an obstacle. what about colorblind community? I'm sure you've seen those rainbow-infused captchas on forums that make it hard to read characters for a normal person. Should we go back to B&W only? Ohh but what about dyslexic people? Should we have yellow backgrounds then? And then elderly that want to catch up on tech? Maybe let's develop a whole "accessibility" section? You can't satisfy everyone.

Proficiency is an obligation for participation because nie chcesz żeby ludzie zaczeli pisać na tym forum w 15 językach bo nie mogą się porozumieć używając angielskiego i zaczną szukać rodaków, tworząc niepotrzebne mikro społeczności.

[helping]

I don't mean to offend, but your refutes are becoming silly, narrow, and technical instead of pragmatic.

 

I will withhold a reply and end the debate here, since my previous post pretty much addresses everything with regards to the post I'm quoting. Keep your questions in mind and parse my post if you need to. My word choice is usually precise.

[LePawel]

I don't mean to offend, but your refutes are becoming silly, narrow, and technical instead of pragmatic.

 

I will withhold a reply and end the debate here, since my previous post pretty much addresses everything with regards to the post I'm quoting. Keep your questions in mind and parse my post if you need to. My word choice is usually precise.

Aahh, pragmatic, should have told me in the first place. I forgot how real life examples are not really worth it since because maybe whatever. If you could just tell me what was narrow in my posts, but that would be so anti pragmatic... 

[Fred Castellum]

-sniptacular-

Yup, I actually know people who sign up for forums that operate in a different language because they like the topics being discussed on said forums and because their also trying to learn said language. Therefore adding to the learning process and making the learning process more entertaining, sure they may know little to nothing but so what? Their in the process of learning a language they want to learn and reading/learning about topics/subjects they have a interest in. The don't need to post and may not want to post anything anyway, perhaps they don't feel like it would be a good idea to converse with people on the forum if they'd just be a hassle to communicate with. People do creative things and thinking of different methods to move forward and progress in life, we shouldn't think narrowly and close off options that seem foolish to us just because we haven't heard or learnt of them.

 

I'm flattered that I've been mentioned as a open minded person. 

 

-sniptacular- 

a ) LMG doesn't need to accommodate people who use a different language, they aren't obligated too either. Therefore it doesn't really matter what country their from and what they speak. If they can't read or speak English their still welcome to sign up, you don't see anyone posting things in a different language on this forum unless their spamming anyway. 

 

b ) They don't need to be interested in Linus or know what Linus is saying at all! Though this forum was made for people who want to discuss various aspects about tech and follow Linus's show it doesn't mean people who join have to join just for that reason.

 

We aren't forcing anyone into Google translator mode, if they want to go into "google translator mode" then they can. If they join a English forum and can't speak English it was their choice, it has nothing to do with us. What your proposing with the new captcha system is totally removing the option for them to join the forum if they can't speak or read the language. Why take away the option? Those who are interested in joining will join and find ways to adapt, in the end it was "their own choice" for making the move to join.

 

c ) Don't try to change something that's working just fine. The goal isn't to satisfy everyone, that's not the point of this. Sure proficiency is something required for "coherent" communication, but not a obligation to participate. If said person can't understand he/she will most likely do what they can to make "coherent" conversation possible, if they don't then oh well, its not like it topples down the whole discussion. 

 

OP I find listening to what other people have to say, and learning about what they think about whatever subject at hand entertaining and educational because its widens your view on the world, and may enhance your own ability to think of new ideas and concepts to share with others yourself. 

[LePawel]

a ) LMG doesn't need to accommodate people who use a different language, they aren't obligated too either. Therefore it doesn't really matter what country their from and what they speak. If they can't read or speak English their still welcome to sign up, you don't see anyone posting things in a different language on this forum unless their spamming anyway. 

 

b ) They don't need to be interested in Linus or know what Linus is saying at all! Though this forum was made for people who want to discuss various aspects about tech and follow Linus's show it doesn't mean people who join have to join just for that reason.

 

We aren't forcing anyone into Google translator mode, if they want to go into "google translator mode" then they can. If they join a English forum and can't speak English it was their choice, it has nothing to do with us. What your proposing with the new captcha system is totally removing the option for them to join the forum if they can't speak or read the language. Why take away the option? Those who are interested in joining will join and find ways to adapt, in the end it was "their own choice" for making the move to join.

 

c ) Don't try to change something that's working just fine. The goal isn't to satisfy everyone, that's not the point of the. Sure proficiency is something require for "coherent" communication, but not a obligation to participate. If said person can't understand he/she will most likely do what they can make "coherent" conversation possible, if they don't then oh well, its not like it topples down the whole discussion. 

 

OP I find listening to what other people have to say, and learning about what they think about whatever subject at hand entertaining and educational because its widens your view on the world, and may enhance your own ability to think of new ideas and concepts to share with others yourself. 

Ok, first of all, I don't know if it was intentional or not... 1st line, 2nd line.. they're.

a)/b ) I don't want LMG to accommodate anyone, people are privileged not obligated to join forums after all. And sure they're welcome, but if you want to actively take part in the forums, you should at least take care to keep it clean.

b.1) You aren't forcing anyone. A person that wants to join a forum and but cannot communicate in its language is forcing it on himself. 

"why force yourself into constant google translator mode when you have equivalents in your own language." Nothing about forum members doing anything to new comers.

And I don't want to take away an option from anybody. But if you join a majority do your best to adapt.

c ) Communism works just fine, so why change it? And when it comes to communication, different people have different definitions of the word proficiency.

Lastly, I do listen what people have to say, and I am willing to exchange views but I don't have to agree or 'enhance my abilities' from these conversation. I have simply dropped a funny idea on the floor. And the conclusion I can take from this "debate" is that while generally accepted to an extent, it could be improved 

[FlakeyBanana]

as previously stated the problem is real people signing up then loading the accounts into spam bots

[Fred Castellum]

-snip-

a )/b ) How often do you see people who don't know how to speak English talk on this forum aside from being bots? Its next to none and to date I haven't spotted anyone who has and turned out not being a bot. Those who can't read or write English usually don't converse with anyone on the forum anyway, keeping the forums clean isn't a problem for them. 

 

Again I have yet to see someone come onto this forum and post in their native language(not English) to converse with members here. If they do decide to use the equivalent in their own language then no one would understand, and if no one understands mods will deal with the issue. It isn't a problem we see here at all, and if it does happen it'll be dealt with ease. 

 

c ) That's not a very good analogy for the matter at hand. Communism working "just fine" or not is up to the population of people who are using it. There is a reason why some countries have moved away from a Communist styled governing structure. What the majority agrees upon is what usually is implemented. In this case there isn't anything wrong with the current captcha system a improvement isn't needed, there are other parts of the forum that would benefit more from being improved than the captcha system. This scenario of people who don't understand the language used on our forum and signing up to end up using their own language isn't a big enough problem to where the mods can't deal with it, to warrant itself as a reason to change the captcha system. Heck I have yet to see one instance of this situation happen at all. 

 

I never said you had to agree, the world would lack variety of everyone agreed on the same thing would it not? Regardless of how you think about it, reading and absorbing any type of information being talked about will enhance your ability and knowledge on said topic whether it be statistically or factual. 

[Izaya Orihara]

My english is god awful but I'd pass this without a problem. 

[IdeaStormer]

Best solution is to actually leave out the OK/Submit button for a month or two.

[LePawel]

a )/b ) How often do you see people who don't know how to speak English talk on this forum aside from being bots? Its next to none and to date I haven't spotted anyone who has and turned out not being a bot. Those who can't read or write English usually don't converse with anyone on the forum anyway, keeping the forums clean isn't a problem for them. 

 

Again I have yet to see someone come onto this forum and post in their native language(not English) to converse with members here. If they do decide to use the equivalent in their own language then no one would understand, and if no one understands mods will deal with the issue. It isn't a problem we see here at all, and if it does happen it'll be dealt with ease. 

 

c ) That's not a very good analogy for the matter at hand. Communism working "just fine" or not is up to the population of people who are using it. There is a reason why some countries have moved away from a Communist styled governing structure. What the majority agrees upon is what usually is implemented. In this case there isn't anything wrong with the current captcha system a improvement isn't needed, there are other parts of the forum that would benefit more from being improved than the captcha system. This scenario of people who don't understand the language used on our forum and signing up to end up using their own language isn't a big enough problem to where the mods can't deal with it, to warrant itself as a reason to change the captcha system. Heck I have yet to see one instance of this situation happen at all. 

 

I never said you had to agree, the world would lack variety of everyone agreed on the same thing would it not? Regardless of how you think about it, reading and absorbing any type of information being talked about will enhance your ability and knowledge on said topic whether it be statistically or factual. 

Well the whole idea was to just brighten up the whole captcha thing, but it turned into some debate about meaning of the universe.

A simple option in profile could solve all that stuff, and could include "Which is intels chipset" sort of questions

[helping]

Well the whole idea was to just brighten up the whole captcha thing, but it turned into some debate about meaning of the universe.

A simple option in profile could solve all that stuff, and could include "Which is intels chipset" sort of questions

why not use this nifty looking system?

 

 

 

and leave the memes to off topic or leddit 9fag and imgur?