DAC vs USB

[ArchV]

I've been looking on google for a good 20 minutes now and have yet to get a straight / good answer about this...

 

I own a Razer Nari Ultimate and a Razer Blackshark V2.  Both USB headsets (dac built-in, obviously)

 

Would a decent DAC and some good 3.5mm headphones be better or worse than those?    I can't really find any information comparing modern USB headsets to external DACs.  There's lots of expensive DACs out there and I would have to assume they are better? Everyone seems to be in entirely in one camp or the other, and no one talks about which camp you should be in in the first place

 

Also, if external dacs are better... is there as way to bypass the DAC on the USB headsets and use a "better one" (reusing the headphones instead of buying a new 3.5mm headphone)

 

[Digideath]

I dont know if it helps but I use an external dac. In fact I have 2.

 

Audio card: Soundblaster z

Speakers: logitek 5.1 surround 1000watt rms

Headset: Razer kraken 3.5mm plugs (no dac)

 

Basically both the audio card and speakers have their own dac. The audio card is plugged into the front panel audio connector. The speakers also have headphone and mic Jack's.

 

I can use either. The front panel audio way gives more control but plugging the headset into the speakers gives a higher volume.

 

In all instances I get excellent quality audio through the headset. The volume and quality is immense. I would highly recommend this type of setup over usb headsets. You just get more control and better sound quality doing it that way.

[SupaKomputa]

23 minutes ago, Digideath said:

Audio card: Soundblaster z

Do you feel huge difference compared to onboard audio (realtek). Having usb dac intrigue me, can't justify the cost tho.

 

40 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

Open the headphones and remove the DAC inside the headphones, after which you connect the headphones (left & right) and the microphone to a new cable with a connector suitable for an external DAC. Easy?

This is very doable. Nice tips.

[Digideath]

9 minutes ago, SupaKomputa said:

Do you feel huge difference compared to onboard audio (realtek). Having usb dac intrigue me, can't justify the cost tho.

Yes. There is a huge difference. I get more volume without distortion. It has better treble and bass. You can hear more detail. It also has much better controls and it up mixes stereo to 5.1 surround. I can do that with my speakers as well but the up mixing on the audio card is much better.

 

Btw the card I'm using only cost £50 out of overclockers.uk. it's good value for the money.

[rice guru]

1 hour ago, ArchV said:

I've been looking on google for a good 20 minutes now and have yet to get a straight / good answer about this...

 

I own a Razer Nari Ultimate and a Razer Blackshark V2.  Both USB headsets (dac built-in, obviously)

 

Would a decent DAC and some good 3.5mm headphones be better or worse than those?    I can't really find any information comparing modern USB headsets to external DACs.  There's lots of expensive DACs out there and I would have to assume they are better? Everyone seems to be in entirely in one camp or the other, and no one talks about which camp you should be in in the first place

 

Also, if external dacs are better... is there as way to bypass the DAC on the USB headsets and use a "better one" (reusing the headphones instead of buying a new 3.5mm headphone)

 

The main factor is the headphones. The dac and amps can only perform as good as  your headphones. Running a good pair of headphones even just off your onboard will sound better and will be better than a razer nari.if you are looking to upgrade base your decisions off what headphones you plan on getting. Focus most of your budget on the headphones rather than source gear.

[Tigerleon]

1 hour ago, ArchV said:

I've been looking on google for a good 20 minutes now and have yet to get a straight / good answer about this...

 

I own a Razer Nari Ultimate and a Razer Blackshark V2.  Both USB headsets (dac built-in, obviously)

 

Would a decent DAC and some good 3.5mm headphones be better or worse than those?    I can't really find any information comparing modern USB headsets to external DACs.  There's lots of expensive DACs out there and I would have to assume they are better? Everyone seems to be in entirely in one camp or the other, and no one talks about which camp you should be in in the first place

 

Also, if external dacs are better... is there as way to bypass the DAC on the USB headsets and use a "better one" (reusing the headphones instead of buying a new 3.5mm headphone)

 

Of course a good DAC/amp combo would be better than those. Not only because you get less interference but as well as the amp quality and how good the DAC is implemented. Do you think keyboard and mice companies like razer would prioritize their audio products? No. They make them cheap and sell a bunch of them and all gamers think that is a good headset only because it looks cool and matches their setup.

[Psittac]

All in one solutions have their benefit's like being at least somewhat designed to work together.  Ex: I have 6 pairs of headphones and only two of them make for a great headset because the rest of them muffle the sound of my own voice to varying degree's.  My Sennheiser Game One's however are very open, the mic is built in and mutes when put up and theres a volume wheel on the side of the ear cup.  Then there is wireless headset's which add even more functionality.

 

With all of that said the convenience of a gaming headset must come at a cost in the form of compromise.  A proper pair of "audiophile" headphones with an added mic will always sound better than a gaming headset esp when there is a chain behind it (dac/amp).  Of course this does come at a greater financial hit.

 

IMO each has their own applications for different buyers.

 

I would say the gold star of entry is the Fidelio X2HR with the vmoda boom mic package deal running onboard audio. And it just goes up from there.

 

My next bar of a good headset combo would be the Hifiman HE-400i with an antlion mod mic and a dac and amp.

 

From there the sky is the limit, I'm rather fond of my Harmonicdyne Zeus and the antlion mod mic.

 

*edit: do not take apart your headset and try to run it wired, it will be a mess and probably no longer function right if at all.  Just sell them and buy something new if you're dead set on an upgrade.

[ArchV]

Interesting stuff everyone.  Thanks for the input so far... So is Sound Blaster still a respectable DAC brand?  I remember back in the day you weren't a real gamer unless you had a Sound Blaster installed.  Probably still got an Audigy or two in the closet somewhere.  Or are they worn out has-been products now and I should look at another brand?

 

Sadly audio is so easy to be cheap on... 98% of gamers would be probably be perfectly satisfied with some fancy wireless gaming brand headset... and most sound pretty decent, but unless you are actually able to compare it with something that is a CLEARLY better... you simply won't know what you're missing.   So that said.... is it REALLY worth $500 or more to get a decent set of headphones + a good quality DAC + separate mic? Does it really make a ton of difference for games and music?  Specifically games, I'm finding it hard to grasp how much "better" a game could actually sound.

[Psittac]

3 hours ago, ArchV said:

Interesting stuff everyone.  Thanks for the input so far... So is Sound Blaster still a respectable DAC brand?  I remember back in the day you weren't a real gamer unless you had a Sound Blaster installed.  Probably still got an Audigy or two in the closet somewhere.  Or are they worn out has-been products now and I should look at another brand?

 

Sadly audio is so easy to be cheap on... 98% of gamers would be probably be perfectly satisfied with some fancy wireless gaming brand headset... and most sound pretty decent, but unless you are actually able to compare it with something that is a CLEARLY better... you simply won't know what you're missing.   So that said.... is it REALLY worth $500 or more to get a decent set of headphones + a good quality DAC + separate mic? Does it really make a ton of difference for games and music?  Specifically games, I'm finding it hard to grasp how much "better" a game could actually sound.

It's very subjective and difficult to convey through text, pretty much you need to hear it to know.  And on top of that the term "worth it" is again very subjective.  I got my first taste of "audiophile" or the first thing that was made specifically to sound better than average, was a pair of Sennheiser's back in 03 and that is when I got bit.  I didn't have much money at the time but started on my home theater which took me a good 10 years to build.  But I was always into good sound, like my best friend back in elementary school had a home theater at his parents and I was blown away at what it was over TV speakers or a HT in a box solution.

 

So for me it's worth it because it's a hobby all on it's own and now that I'm older and have a good paying job I have disposable income for various hobbies not just this.  On a hifi forum someone told me that you don't know any better until you've experienced something better which becomes the new normal, you don't realize the improvement per say until you go back to old equipment.

 

It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg either, This X2HR bundle is only $160 which comes in less than many headsets and it will scale well with added components such as dac and amp.  I notice that you mention DAC and not amp, and I have to say that an amp is just as important if not more so than a dac.  A dac without an amp is useless.  Dac's are Digital to Analogue Converters that have no power to them, they just put out a line level signal.  An amp takes that signal and amplifies it to something strong enough to drive your headphones.  And an amp isn't just about power output, the sound quality varies from amp to amp.  Once you have a decent dac the amp is a bigger impact.  But the impact of headphones is probably the highest, with pad swaps being the second highest and by far the cheapest.  There are dac/amp combo's too.

 

*as to Creative I honestly don't know as I haven't experienced one or heard any reviews of them. @Tigerleon is a big proponent of them so maybe he can shed some light

 

[Tigerleon]

10 hours ago, ArchV said:

So is Sound Blaster still a respectable DAC brand

Yes it is. One of my friends tried it out after I recommended the Sound Blaster G5 and he's loving it. He is even using a pair of X2HR as I am. The G6 has better software which uses the latest sound blaster command software and it is great. I would say the Sound Blaster G6 is a great little DAC/amp combo that'll drive almost any headphones to their full potential and has great software for whatever you need to do with it. As @Psittac said, the X2HR with a mic combo is a great deal and offers a great open experience since they are very open headphones.

[CTR640]

13 hours ago, ArchV said:

Interesting stuff everyone.  Thanks for the input so far... So is Sound Blaster still a respectable DAC brand?  I remember back in the day you weren't a real gamer unless you had a Sound Blaster installed.  Probably still got an Audigy or two in the closet somewhere.  Or are they worn out has-been products now and I should look at another brand?

 

Sadly audio is so easy to be cheap on... 98% of gamers would be probably be perfectly satisfied with some fancy wireless gaming brand headset... and most sound pretty decent, but unless you are actually able to compare it with something that is a CLEARLY better... you simply won't know what you're missing.   So that said.... is it REALLY worth $500 or more to get a decent set of headphones + a good quality DAC + separate mic? Does it really make a ton of difference for games and music?  Specifically games, I'm finding it hard to grasp how much "better" a game could actually sound.

I'm in the remaining 2% that hates fancy wireless piece of shit mixed with green radioactive Hulk poop lol. I am a gamer and my headphones varies from very affordable up to expensive and they all sound different. Recently I got the Beyerdynamic Tygr and love it! Comfort is amazing too.

 

It is really worth it to get a dac/amp? Yes! The Fiio K5 Pro and iFi ZEN DAC/CAN are very popular because of their prices. Sound Blaster G6 too if Tiger guy loves and X2HR is a very populair heardphone too.

[Ahoy Hoy]

The difference in DAC quality between a standalone DAC and a built in one wont be that noticeable or major.

The difference between headphones could be quite drastic.

You cant use another DAC with a USB headset.

[HumdrumPenguin]

2 hours ago, Ahoy Hoy said:

The difference in DAC quality between a standalone DAC and a built in one wont be that noticeable or major.

You're putting every single DAC out there at the same level. 

[Ahoy Hoy]

55 minutes ago, HumdrumPenguin said:

You're putting every single DAC out there at the same level. 

Theres defo a stage in quality in DACs where it become basically unnoticeable in quality. Its fair to say its also not very high in quality either. Now thats not me saying some million pound DAC isnt better but the sweat spot in price to performance isnt very high.
Then compared to just getting better headphones for 99% of people on this forum the better option when spending their hard earned money is get better headphones instead of buying a DAC.

Instead of buying those Shiit DACs for £100 putting that £100 into buying better headphones in the first place will get drastically better listening experience.

[rice guru]

19 minutes ago, Ahoy Hoy said:

Theres defo a stage in quality in DACs where it become basically unnoticeable in quality. Its fair to say its also not very high in quality either. Now thats not me saying some million pound DAC isnt better but the sweat spot in price to performance isnt very high.
Then compared to just getting better headphones for 99% of people on this forum the better option when spending their hard earned money is get better headphones instead of buying a DAC.

Instead of buying those Shiit DACs for £100 putting that £100 into buying better headphones in the first place will get drastically better listening experience.

I do aggree with this sentiment the only time people should really look into DACS is when they really want to get into th eHobby, wanna start producing or their onboard audio just sucks. That extra $100 can go a long way to getting some great gear. 

[ArchV]

Thanks all... I’ve ordered the X2HR bundle!    On sale for $135. I’ll attempt to use the internal sound with it for now... but something tells me I’ll be researching DAC/Amp stuff soon!  Maybe my wife will give a Shiit  

 

Side note:  I’m gonna to try to return the Razer Blackshark Pro... it has some static popping I can get rid of, and it doesn’t happen using the Nari, so it’s not the source material. That money will go a long way to covering the cost of the X2HR.

 

[ArchV]

Ok fine, I ordered a Sound Blaster G6 too...   

[Ahoy Hoy]

22 minutes ago, ArchV said:

Ok fine, I ordered a Sound Blaster G6 too...   

A £90 headphone paired with a £120 dac amp really isnt a good price for performance. Especially when the X2HR are so sensitive defo don't need a G6 to amplify.

Big oof. I guess my warning about price to performance and better ways to spend money landed on deaf ears.

[ArchV]

On 4/2/2021 at 1:27 PM, Ahoy Hoy said:

A £90 headphone paired with a £120 dac amp really isnt a good price for performance. Especially when the X2HR are so sensitive defo don't need a G6 to amplify.

Big oof. I guess my warning about price to performance and better ways to spend money landed on deaf ears.

Well actually they were about the same price, headphones happened to be on sale, but even on sale there was only a $10 difference.

 

The G6 seemed to be the more common and popular one; I could have got a cheaper DAC but now I have room to grow if I ever want to spend $350 on headphones in the future

 

All that said, the headphones arrived before the G6 (both scheduled to arrive today) ... I plugged it into motherboard sound.  First of all it's ALREADY cleaner than all the Razer stuff, sound is fantastic... but I have the volume set to 100%, and its still fairly quiet; motherboard DEFINITELY does not have enough power to drive these nicely.  I'll welcome the G6 when it gets here, overkill or not lol.

 

I'm lucky I didn't spring for this one:

https://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-gc7

 

That looks niiiiice.

[CTR640]

Razer stuff is a big giant pile of horseshit. Not surprised the X2HR sounds much better. 

[H713]

The reason why companies like Razer and Logitech continue to sell so many gaming headsets is because most of their customers don't know better. Most people have never actually heard anything better, so those headsets sound good to them. They're used to what they get out of a cheap $20 pair of earbuds or (even worse) the speakers built into their laptop, monitor or TV.

 

At one time, I really liked the Sony MDR-7506 and I thought they were "as good as you're reasonably going to make a pair of headphones". I must have been like 14 or 15 at the time. In fact, I got used to the rather colored (and overly bright) tonal balance of the 7506, and I thought that was how a good system was supposed to sound. 

 

When I was 17, I got to hear a properly-tuned L-Acoustics KARA line array system in a really good room using a familiar track. That experience made me start to realize that the MDR-7506 is far from being the "neutral reference" that a lot of people claim. It's not just frequency response either, because no matter how hard I try, I cannot even come close to correcting it with EQ.

 

These days, I do most of my listening on a pair of Quested active monitors. I've heard a lot of other systems as well and own quite a bit of other equipment for reference. I would not recommend anyone buy Sony MDR-7506s for pleasure listening. If you want a pair of headphones for amateur radio, by all means, they're really fantastic for that. But they aren't fun to listen to and they aren't accurate. 

 

The point I'm making is that it's easy to trick yourself if everything you haven't heard things that aren't lousy. This isn't about subtleties- almost anyone can tell the difference between the MDR-7506 and something like the Grados (or another headphone that isn't screwed up). The reality is, however, that most people have no frame of reference to know that they could be having a much better experience.