Microsoft Blog talking about DX12

[Vitalius]

so are you saying I can't play it on windows 7? because that's what I asked. show me a game I can't play?

Not the point.

We were talking about M$ being kind to PC gamers. Restricting extra in-game performance from Windows 7 users (majority of the market currently) is effectively forcing them to pay the $100 to upgrade to Windows 8 for that extra performance. When many people don't want Windows 8. 

Sure it works, but that isn't kind. That isn't kind at all.

[mr moose]

Not the point.

We were talking about M$ being kind to PC gamers. Restricting extra in-game performance from Windows 7 users (majority of the market currently) is effectively forcing them to pay the $100 to upgrade to Windows 8 for that extra performance.

Sure it works, but that isn't kind. That isn't kind at all.

It is the point,  he is claiming that MS are forcing gamers into a $100 upgrade,  This in not the case.  

 

Do you expect MS to invest time and money into dx to gain a few FPS and then just give it to you for free? That would be a very poor business model, nothing is free, that is why every second or third iteration of dx will be locked to the last OS or newer. 

 

I think the fact that dx is free should be enough, but no, people want more, give me give me give me, "why should I have to pay"  is what I have been hearing a lot of on these forums.  All I can say is if that's how people feel then maybe they should go and code an api as good or better than dx and then not only give it to people for free but maintain it and update it as well.

[Vitalius]

It is the point,  he is claiming that MS are forcing gamers into a $100 upgrade,  This in not the case.  

 

Do you expect MS to invest time and money into dx to gain a few FPS and then just give it to you for free? That would be a very poor business model, nothing is free, that is why every second or third iteration of dx will be locked to the last OS or newer. 

 

I think the fact that dx is free should be enough, but no, people want more, give me give me give me, "why should I have to pay"  is what I have been hearing a lot of on these forums.  All I can say is if that's how people feel then maybe they should go and code an api as good or better than dx and then not only give it to people for free but maintain it and update it as well.

As I said, we were talking about whether M$ is kind to PC gamers. That's where it all started. Effectively, that's what they are doing. Forcing PC gamers into a $100 upgrade to get the latest and greatest when they already paid $100 for Windows 7 which is supposed to still be supported and getting updates. Apparently that only includes security updates and the like.

I would imagine that would include DX 12, but apparently not. I paid $100 for Windows 7. That isn't different from Windows 8. Where is my DX 12?

Even if they are a business and try to make money, other businesses make money while being nice to their consumers. Why can't Microsoft do it? 

Everything I've seen them do recently has been about "Screw what people want, this is what we want." And they aren't doing that for innovative purposes, or if they are, they are definitely trying to fight what people actually want which isn't a good way to innovate. They did it with Kinect. They were trying to do it with online connections (And I quote, "Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it’s called Xbox 360" - Don Mattrick). Now they are doing it with DX12. 

Because that worked so well before. 

Say whatever you want. They don't have a good track record in terms of limiting certain technologies, or forcing them for that matter, in certain products. And I consider them in a negative light for doing it. They can make money while making PC gamers happy. If they haven't figured out how to do that yet, it's on them, and deservedly so.

[mr moose]

 

 

You want me to thank MS for dividing the user base on Direct X's forcing game devs to use older DirectX's , and forcing a 100 dollar upgrade and continuing to make a entry level gaming PC 100 dollars more for people when they could use OpenGL and Steam OS?

 

 

As I said, we were talking about whether M$ is kind to PC gamers. That's where it all started. Effectively, that's what they are doing. Forcing PC gamers into a $100 upgrade to get the latest and greatest when they already paid $100 for Windows 7 which is supposed to still be supported and getting updates. Apparently that only includes security updates and the like.

 

 

No one said anything about being kind, read jesters quote above, he said: "and forcing a 100 dollar upgrade and continuing to make a entry level gaming PC 100 dollars more for people when they could use OpenGL and Steam OS?" 

 

That, I am sorry,  is complete rubbish, No one is being forced to upgrade, How can it make any new pc $100 more expensive, people can only buy windows 7 or newer and that is all you need to play games.  it's not like you buy windows 7 now and then you have to buy windows 9 when that gets released or all your games stop working. He even pointed out that devs are still coding for the older DX, thus he knows you can play every game that is out. 

 

No one is being FORCED to upgrade.  If you want the latest and greatest you can pay for it, but it is not essential, it is not a prerequisite to play any of the games.

 

I don't get why people would expect any company to invest time and money into a product and then forfeit all opportunities recoup on that investment. They are investing in a free product that allows people to game on their pc and people have the gall to expect they do more and not use it as a tool to propagate sales.

[Misanthrope]

No one is being FORCED to upgrade. 

 

Largely a matter of perspective but if you look at how many people HATE Windows 8 it's a fair accusation to level: Hijack a popular feature gamers would want (DX12) on an OS that force feeds them features they don't want like the idiotic, ugly, stupid fucking metro UI.

Saying that Microsoft "forces you" to upgrade it's a valid way of saying all of the above in a succinct form, so you're pretty much arguing semantics here by intentionally taking a literal sense to derail the topic distracting for the fact that Microsoft will likely do what it's always done and force people who want DX12 to upgrade to what could amount to more crappy Metro UI bullshit and other features meant for tablets and mobiles that are shoved in desktop users faces for no good motherfucking reason at all.

[nicehat]

  They have to make money to stay in business too, no one pays the bills by giving stuff away for free.

 

In other news, MS is giving away One Note 2013 for free  :lol: 

 

But yeah, MS cant be that bad. Although their previous track record with PC gamers does not exactly lend benefit of doubt. The only way to be truly free, and to give consumers meaningful choice, is when MS stops holding Windows hostage while shoving DX down our throats. A Linux paradigm shift cant come soon enough. We need another player

[mr moose]

Largely a matter of perspective but if you look at how many people HATE Windows 8 it's a fair accusation to level: Hijack a popular feature gamers would want (DX12) on an OS that force feeds them features they don't want like the idiotic, ugly, stupid fucking metro UI.

Saying that Microsoft "forces you" to upgrade it's a valid way of saying all of the above in a succinct form, so you're pretty much arguing semantics here by intentionally taking a literal sense to derail the topic distracting for the fact that Microsoft will likely do what it's always done and force people who want DX12 to upgrade to what could amount to more crappy Metro UI bullshit and other features meant for tablets and mobiles that are shoved in desktop users faces for no good motherfucking reason at all.

 

I haven't derailed this thread with semantics, I am merely pointing out that regardles of whether you love or hate ms you are not forced to do anything and you can still play all the games.  If you want something a little bigger and better then you have to pay for it, but that's like anything, adobe doesn't give you next version of photoshop simply because you bought an older version,  Bethesda aren't going to give me  a free copy of ESO because I bought Skyrim. It is not an evil scheme that MS have discovered, it's the way all business work. 

 

As far as derailing the thread goes,  there are just as many people (if not more) that like win 8,  you really need to get over this win8 hate, Yes people really hated the new layout when it first hit the shelves, but since then it has had two new iterations and to be honest of all the tech specialist I deal with only one has said he still doesn't like 8. 

[mr moose]

In other news, MS is giving away One Note 2013 for free  :lol: 

 

But yeah, MS cant be that bad. Although their previous track record with PC gamers does not exactly lend benefit of doubt. The only way to be truly free, and to give consumers meaningful choice, is when MS stops holding Windows hostage while shoving DX down our throats. A Linux paradigm shift cant come soon enough. We need another player

Linux has been coming for a long time, even when I first got into IBM compatibles (early 90's), Linux was considered the dark horse that was slimmer, faster, better and going to be the future. It hasn't happened yet and if does happen I doubt it is going to be a sweeping tidal wave but more likely the gentle washing away of the shore line with rising sea levels.

[pixeldensity]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way a Linux user has to update Linux is by using command lines, right?

[mr moose]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way a Linux user has to update Linux is by using command lines, right?

depends on the distro,  For ubuntu it operates similar to windows in that it has a utility for maintaining updates.

 

If you were using a command line distro like debian then yes you would have to use command lines to update.

[Vitalius]

Just a thought I had:

Most games that come out are still DirectX 9 because XP only supports that. Considering development time (since you have to decide these things early on), the end of DX9 will be soon and DX 10/11 will be more supported (since XP is reaching EOL and 7 is the dominant market share).

It doesn't matter if Microsoft limits DX12 to Windows 8 or not. Developers are going to choose whatever is most supported. Whether that's DX12 (if M$ puts it on Windows 7) or 10/11 (if they don't put 12 on Windows 7). 

I don't see how you can advertise DX12 in Windows 8 only to make money with this type of setup, where the devs decide what they use, and they aren't going to use something that limits them to a small percentage of the market. 

In fact, I'd consider it stupid of M$ to limit DX12 to Windows 8 since this is how things go anyway. Then it won't be used until 7 hits EOL. Pointless. Utterly pointless.

[mr moose]

Just a thought I had:

Most games that come out are still DirectX 9 because XP only supports that. Considering development time (since you have to decide these things early on), the end of DX9 will be soon and DX 10/11 will be more supported (since XP is reaching EOL and 7 is the dominant market share).

It doesn't matter if Microsoft limits DX12 to Windows 8 or not. Developers are going to choose whatever is most supported. Whether that's DX12 (if M$ puts it on Windows 7) or 10/11 (if they don't put 12 on Windows 7). 

I don't see how you can advertise DX12 in Windows 8 only to make money with this type of setup, where the devs decide what they use, and they aren't going to use something that limits them to a small percentage of the market. 

In fact, I'd consider it stupid of M$ to limit DX12 to Windows 8 since this is how things go anyway. Then it won't be used until 7 hits EOL. Pointless. Utterly pointless.

I think the point for MS is that by restricting it to win8 only means that people buying pc's now will buy win 8 instead of win 7, thankfully due to developer support for win 7(dx10 etc) being longer than the average upgrade cycle,  all those with win 7 now wont have to upgrade until it hits EOL at the earliest and those who buy win 8 now won't be caught short until their pc gets to an age when the hardware is letting it down anyway.

 

That and I'd rather MS invest their money in improving DX and windows rather than supporting a 10 year old OS that no one wants to let go.

[flibberdipper]

They better bring back Microsoft Bob next...

[ajoy39]

It is at times like this that I feel bad for users who purchased their AMD cards specifically for mantle. 

why? We're still going to get the benefit of DX12 just like everyone else. Besides there are plenty of rumors floating around that DX12 might be based on Mantle, which would make sense given the timing of the announcement and AMDs assertion that they don't care if Mantle succeeds as long as we get something like it as a replacement. Plus AMD does not want to spend the time and money to support a full graphics API, so if they can sell it to MS and have that become DX12 that's to their benefit.

[ajoy39]

Apples to oranges. 

 

A free OS and OpenGL can do the exact same thing. OpenGL is currently faster then DirectX. A native OpenGL port is faster then a DirectX port.

 

OpenGL is the hardware companies themselves, the Kronos group. That would be Nvidia, AMD, Intel. They are also SteamOS partners. SteamOS is also VERY friendly to those who would like to make the transition from consoles. 

 

Thank you for comparing hardware to a base OS though! Totally legit comparison. 

OpenGL is not faster than DX. Native OpenGL titles run faster than DirectX ports but Native OpenGL games do not run better than Native DX games. 

[Prophet of Entropy]

all this "DX12 WON"T WORK ON WIN 7!! OMGWTF!!!" is nothing but internet speculation at its worst.   it might or might not, no where absolutely no where have I seen anything about DX12's OS requirements.

 

 

What I have seen, DX12 dev tools are already available.   DX12 beta drivers expected this year, for devs I's im guessing. Nvidia asked MS 4 years ago for a low level DX api, surprise surprise  MS is slow to come up with anything that wont directly make them money.  (Buy a new AMD card!!! it's got Mantle!!).    Native DX12 games will be out late 2015, (I'm guessing they are talking about xbone games)

[deathjester]

OpenGL is not faster than DX. Native OpenGL titles run faster than DirectX ports but Native OpenGL games do not run better than Native DX games. 

 

False.

 

http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

 

OpenGL has been faster for quite some time now, even in Windows. It isn't much but it IS faster.

[deathjester]

all this "DX12 WON"T WORK ON WIN 7!! OMGWTF!!!" is nothing but internet speculation at its worst.   it might or might not, no where absolutely no where have I seen anything about DX12's OS requirements.

 

 

What I have seen, DX12 dev tools are already available.   DX12 beta drivers expected this year, for devs I's im guessing. Nvidia asked MS 4 years ago for a low level DX api, surprise surprise  MS is slow to come up with anything that wont directly make them money.  (Buy a new AMD card!!! it's got Mantle!!).    Native DX12 games will be out late 2015, (I'm guessing they are talking about xbone games)

 

Yeah why would we ever think that...oh yeah it is because this is what MS does. They with held a minor change with 11.2 from Win 7, which is included in AMD Mantle for free and works on 7,  but you think they are giving us DX 12 for free? They will only do that if OpenGL is a very serious threat to the DX monopoly, not because they give a care about PC gaming or the consumer lol.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX

 

^ History is why people "speculate". MS is holding off on the announcement to see what happens with OpenGL. They do NOT want this going on Win 7. They want to charge people another 100 bucks to play games they should already be able to play, with optimizations that the other two API's already had or included for free.

 

It is an absolute joke that it took the hardware vendors themselves to announce and start on this (Kronos group that owns OpenGL and is AMD, Nvidia, Intel). It is also an absolute joke that the first DX 12 game will be holiday 2015. A 4 man team can port Forza from Xbox One to PC in a month, but we have to wait until then?

 

Oh yeah I forgot. MS has a dumb console to sell and low level API's on the PC kills it's value and makes the console a joke. Also Windows can wait longer for Win 8/9 adoption. 

 

Let's all thank MS people. They obviously care about sooooo much about PC gaming and not their console and OS sales. I  hope Valve and Steam OS and the Kronos group (the hardware vendors) whom are Steam OS partners, jump all over MS's greed and beat them to the punch with low level adoption from the game devs.

[mr moose]

all this "DX12 WON"T WORK ON WIN 7!! OMGWTF!!!" is nothing but internet speculation at its worst.   it might or might not, no where absolutely no where have I seen anything about DX12's OS requirements.

 

 

What I have seen, DX12 dev tools are already available.   DX12 beta drivers expected this year, for devs I's im guessing. Nvidia asked MS 4 years ago for a low level DX api, surprise surprise  MS is slow to come up with anything that wont directly make them money.  (Buy a new AMD card!!! it's got Mantle!!).    Native DX12 games will be out late 2015, (I'm guessing they are talking about xbone games)

 

In all likely hood (almost guaranteed) dx12 won't be available for win7, however this will be of very little consequence as by the time a game requires dx12 to play, win7 will be close to EOL and most gamers will have already updated to win 8 or 9 anyway.

[Vitalius]

In all likely hood (almost guaranteed) dx12 won't be available for win7, however this will be of very little consequence as by the time a game requires dx12 to play, win7 will be close to EOL and most gamers will have already updated to win 8 or 9 anyway.

Thank you for reiterating what I said earlier. 

I find this silly to be perfectly honest. This basically means M$ making DX12 exclusive to Windows 8 utterly pointless. The majority market share won't move until 7 hits EOL whether DX12 is on it or not. So I fail to see the point in making it exclusive. It'd be adopted faster by developers if they released it for 7. It's almost like a looooong beta. 

The only positive I see for them to make it exclusive to 8 would be resources, if Windows editions weren't just built upon previous versions. But they are, so I still fail to see the point.

[mr moose]

Thank you for reiterating what I said earlier. 

I find this silly to be perfectly honest. This basically means M$ making DX12 exclusive to Windows 8 utterly pointless. The majority market share won't move until 7 hits EOL whether DX12 is on it or not. So I fail to see the point in making it exclusive. It'd be adopted faster by developers if they released it for 7. It's almost like a looooong beta. 

The only positive I see for them to make it exclusive to 8 would be resources, if Windows editions weren't just built upon previous versions. But they are, so I still fail to see the point.

 

I think the point is to encourage pc builders of today to go for win 8 instead of win 7, as that will reduce the number of people dragging their feet on 7 when it comes EOL.  MS don't want to be supporting any os as long as they did for xp, so any little thing they can do now to get people onto 8 instead of 7 is in their long term interest. 

 

Contrary to popular belief on this forum, MS have never really been reactive in their product design,  most of their products and road maps have been on the drawing board a very long time before we find out about them and right now MS are clearly setting their market up for  windows 9 and beyond and doing what they can to mitigate the need for support of win 7 in a few years time.   It's not about how windows is built, but about how they are budgeting long term support for their products. Essential they are not giving win7 dx 12 so they don't have money tied up in supporting it 4 years down the track when there is no longer any income from it.  The benefit to MS working this way is that game dev's will be able to stop coding for older API's and concentrate on the later ones so long as MS are successful in moving most of their clients to newer OS's. 

[deathjester]

I think the point is to encourage pc builders of today to go for win 8 instead of win 7, as that will reduce the number of people dragging their feet on 7 when it comes EOL.  MS don't want to be supporting any os as long as they did for xp, so any little thing they can do now to get people onto 8 instead of 7 is in their long term interest. 

 

Contrary to popular belief on this forum, MS have never really been reactive in their product design,  most of their products and road maps have been on the drawing board a very long time before we find out about them and right now MS are clearly setting their market up for  windows 9 and beyond and doing what they can to mitigate the need for support of win 7 in a few years time.   It's not about how windows is built, but about how they are budgeting long term support for their products. Essential they are not giving win7 dx 12 so they don't have money tied up in supporting it 4 years down the track when there is no longer any income from it.  The benefit to MS working this way is that game dev's will be able to stop coding for older API's and concentrate on the later ones so long as MS are successful in moving most of their clients to newer OS's. 

 

End of line for Win 7 is 2020 last I heard, not holiday 2015. Seeing that Win 8 runs DirectX 11.1 and 9 games at the exact same speed? I have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing Win 7 does better is boot faster and play BF4 better due to a with held DirectX. Mantle performs the same on both and blows DirectX 11.1 away.

 

"The benefit to MS working this way is that game dev's will be able to stop coding for older API's and concentrate on the later ones".

 

MS is fragmenting the player base with with held Direct X's and you say them withholding it and charging 100 dollars for it on a OS that people have REJECTED is a good thing and they are doing this to  help us all. Awesome.

 

OpenGL already had these optimizations available for people to use. They gave the same speech MS did in January, it just wasn't plastered all over tech sites.

 

 

They outlined the techniques that anyone can use NOW on all OS's at GDC. Again, this seems to get no coverage on sites like Tom's Hardware, but you can bet the game developers are aware.

 

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/opengl-gdc2014/

 

This could literally be done NOW. People could optimize their games NOW. They can tell MS to go to hell and do this NOW. MS wants to be greedy about this and protect their silly console that they put underpowered parts in? Good. I hope it screws them over and people bypass DX 12 completely. MS should not determine when we get optimization. It is literally ridiculous that they hold this kind of power over the industry. I would love to know how much money changes hands to protect this dumb monopoly. I know they must pay a fortune to astroturf tech forums...

[mr moose]

 charging 100 dollars for it on a OS that people have REJECTED

 

Some people have rejected, while others have accepted it.

[richard bowers]

Did any one hear DIRECT X 12 is only going to work on iris pro and iris intel cpu's !.
so for example i5 4670k and i7 4770k will not work with DIRECT X 12 because the on board graphics on the two intel cpu i have said about above is  Intel® HD Graphics 4600.
Intel really are taking the p### does any one agree with me ??

[Xsilent(X)]

It is at times like this that I feel bad for users who purchased their AMD cards specifically for mantle.

Wtf are you talking about? AMD or Nvidia cards Can run directx software. And to tell you Nvidia Can run mantle to if they want. The one thing that AMD cards do not have is physics like the Nvidia cards.