Are AMD Desktop APU's Dead?

[Uttamattamakin]

Months ago I built a computer with the first stimulus which was meant to give me maxium power in minimum space, with a real upgrade path.  The motherboard supports Thunderbolt AND AMD APU's and has a single PICE x16 slot.  

 

 

If I had a good a 8C / 16T CPU to put into it I could run Linux as a host and a Windows 10 as a client for both gaming and productivity at the same time even without the use of an EGPU.    Everyone who bought an x570 motherboard with graphics output expected to have a upgrade path.  So my question for the tech guru's here is .... is the AMD APU for desktop dead?  

At least unless I buy a whole computer to swap the processors or something, or just replace my very fine custom computer with a crummy pre-built. 

[svmlegacy]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

AMD APU for desktop dead?  

It's not dead, the 3X00G parts are still active.

4000 series APU's are currently OEM only. It's a waiting game if you want them.

[PlayStation 2]

Ironically enough, there is an option to get an 8-core APU: it's called the Ryzen 7 4700G and Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G. Be warned that since they're OEM chips, they cost a pretty penny (around the $400 mark) when you do find them. 

But really, the thing is with APUs is that they've always been tailored for budget gaming. Predominately, AMD's APU lineup has never been particularly intended for high-end machines, although there's certainly NUCs and shit that have some good kick to them.

[Yoinkerman]

No the 3400g and the like are great and super affordable

[whm1974]

4 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Predominately, AMD's APU lineup has never been particularly intended for high-end machines, although there's certainly NUCs and shit that have some good kick to them.

Bummer. Personlly I think the 4000G series should have been retail.

[jaslion]

14 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Months ago I built a computer with the first stimulus which was meant to give me maxium power in minimum space, with a real upgrade path.  The motherboard supports Thunderbolt AND AMD APU's and has a single PICE x16 slot.  

 

 

If I had a good a 8C / 16T CPU to put into it I could run Linux as a host and a Windows 10 as a client for both gaming and productivity at the same time even without the use of an EGPU.    Everyone who bought an x570 motherboard with graphics output expected to have a upgrade path.  So my question for the tech guru's here is .... is the AMD APU for desktop dead?  

At least unless I buy a whole computer to swap the processors or something, or just replace my very fine custom computer with a crummy pre-built. 

Why not just put a gpu in it and get a normal ryzen? There are 8core apu's out there right now just oem only due to well you know availability issues.

[Uttamattamakin]

9 minutes ago, Yoinkerman said:

No the 3400g and the like are great and super affordable

My work is pretty demanding.  I need to be able to give it at least 4 cores and 8 threads both to the host and the VM. 

7 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Why not just put a gpu in it and get a normal ryzen? There are 8core apu's out there right now just oem only due to well you know availability issues.

If I have a CPU with no graphics then I can only run one OS.  This machine has only one expansion card slot.  UNLESS I can run the graphics for the VM via a EGPU.  This might be technically possible... but somehow feels far less reliable.  It also removes the option of using the Thunderbolt for other things. 

As it stands then, my only way to use both OS's that I need at the same time is to either have a second system for windows, maybe even putting this Mini ITX based system into a dual system case.  

[PlayStation 2]

15 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

Bummer. Personlly I think the 4000G series should have been retail.

I'd have a 4700G in my system right now if it was more readily available.

[jaslion]

4 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

My work is pretty demanding.  I need to be able to give it at least 4 cores and 8 threads both to the host and the VM. 

If I have a CPU with no graphics then I can only run one OS.  This machine has only one expansion card slot.  UNLESS I can run the graphics for the VM via a EGPU.  This might be technically possible... but somehow feels far less reliable.  It also removes the option of using the Thunderbolt for other things. 

As it stands then, my only way to use both OS's that I need at the same time is to either have a second system for windows, maybe even putting this Mini ITX based system into a dual system case.  

Or just sell this and buy a used normal sized ryzen system? I mean if the intention was multi system vms with gpu acceleration then a itx system is probably the worst possible option for that

[Uttamattamakin]

2 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

I'd have a 4700G in my system right now if it was more readily available.

I'd be happy with one of them if they were available and supported.  An 8C 16T processor is what I need to credibly run the applications I want. 

 

[Uttamattamakin]

Just now, jaslion said:

Or just sell this and buy a used normal sized ryzen system? I mean if the intention was multi system vms with gpu acceleration then a itx system is probably the worst possible option for that

I have limited space, and what to retain the theoretical option of being able to lug the computer to the lab or classroom.   Crazy as that sounds. 

[jaslion]

5 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I have limited space, and what to retain the theoretical option of being able to lug the computer to the lab or classroom.   Crazy as that sounds. 

Well your case is basically as big as some smaller micro atx cases so a swap to a bigger board doesn't mean a increase in size.

[Yoinkerman]

Apus weren't ever super powerful though

[Guest]

No. 

My 2400g runs very well. I program and do game development with it. Provided it's not AAA, but I do do non-trivial work on it just fine. 

[TargetDron3]

Your can run as many VMs as you have ram and drive space for.

Failing to see how having a graphics card with 4 outputs won't let you output 4 different VMs/desktops. 

Honestly, you'd be better off running windows as the host and a Linux vm.

That frees up system resources for playing games, since you can power off the Linux vm.  

[nbrowser]

3 hours ago, Yoinkerman said:

No the 3400g and the like are great and super affordable

I've got a rig with this in it...works extremely well as a system to learn Linux on. Also with enough RAM Windows 10 and some games run fine at 1080.

[Uttamattamakin]

3 hours ago, jaslion said:

Well your case is basically as big as some smaller micro atx cases so a swap to a bigger board doesn't mean a increase in size.

This case only supports Mini ITX but ... as I recall possibly Micro ATX but that even with two slots most GPU's are dual slot anyway.  So no.  It's this or nothing.  

Cases that are much smaller run into cooling issues. 

3 hours ago, Yoinkerman said:

Apus weren't ever super powerful though

The code I need to run that needs a "superpowerful" computer would be CUDA code run on a serious GPU.  However it does not need to be part of a real time application the way that a game does.  For example one "benchmark" of mine is a program I wrote in Matlab which runs in GNU Octave too which models the precession of the perihelion of the orbit of Mercury... using Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.  This is a single thread application that can peg at least one Core to 1000%  on my Ryzen 3200G.    When done it will output a couple of graphs.  I can then use the rest of the processor to also do some productivity task while that runs.  This is why I'd say I need at least an 8C 16T APU to make this work.  To have a task like that run in the background while I crunch some physics in the background.

When running a task that is demanding but does not need to be done in real time it is more than enough.  

That said... I may actually want to get my EGPU to work with this setup as being the device I'd pass to a VM and give windows control over it.  That would give this virtual machine its own ethernet, USB IO and of course a well cooled well powered graphics card of its own.  BUT if I do that then I might as well just go for a non APU.  I'd just loose being able to fall back on the ... foolproof APU graphics as an option.   Having them as a failsafe is also attractive. 

One thing that would really solve this is if a consumer level Nvidia card can support SRIOV.  This motherboard does.  In which case a VM and a host can share a GPU in a much more seamless way.  

 

43 minutes ago, TargetDron3 said:

Your can run as many VMs as you have ram and drive space for.

Failing to see how having a graphics card with 4 outputs won't let you output 4 different VMs/desktops. 

Honestly, you'd be better off running windows as the host and a Linux vm.

That frees up system resources for playing games, since you can power off the Linux vm.  

I don't think IOMMU passthrough GPU sharing etc can be done in a run of the mill copy of Windows.  This is why in all LTT videos that discuss this Linux is the host. 
 

[YoMz]

there are so many shoebox sized builds for ITX cases that would give you a lot more performance even if you DIY build it... I think the trouble you are mainly having right now is due to your conflicting thoughts about your build "I want an APU but my workload is pretty demanding"

 

you should look at all those ultra compact ITX cases and see where you can take them for your current demands... heck there are even builds out there that are sub 12L and have peak specs at the same time... I think going APU for a demanding workload is a mistake even if that APU is 8-core... don't gimp your build just because your space is limited...

[cottechguy]

Instead of an APU, you May get a ryzen 7 1xxx CPU and a GPU. If you think the CPU i said is too old, you can get a ryzen 7 2xxx/3xxx (I prefer 2xxx, the 3xxx ones are expensive) and a radeon RX 570 8G would be OK. you also May get ddr4 ram and b450(for 2xxx) or b550 (for 3xxx)

[cottechguy]

1 hour ago, cottechguy said:

Instead of an APU, you May get a ryzen 7 1xxx CPU and a GPU. If you think the CPU i said is too old, you can get a ryzen 7 2xxx/3xxx (I prefer 2xxx, the 3xxx ones are expensive) and a radeon RX 570 8G would be OK. you also May get ddr4 ram and b450(for 2xxx) or b550 (for 3xxx)

Oh, also a 600W PSU would be great.

[jaslion]

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

This case only supports Mini ITX but ... as I recall possibly Micro ATX but that even with two slots most GPU's are dual slot anyway.  So no.  It's this or nothing.
 

Worded it wrongly. I meant getting a micro atx bases system wouldn't increase the size as most smaller micro atx cases are the same size as your case.

[FRD]

They are not dead, actually even in 2020 the Ryzen 3200G and 3400G were still really popular models and the 3200G even sold out for a short while.

It's also possible to get the AMD Ryzen 3 PRO 4350G as a tray, to make a great APU build. Also, the new Apple M1 uses great APU, which Linus also covered in his videos. I think we can safely say APU's are not dead yet for quite some time.

[LogicalDrm]

-> Moved to CPUs, Motherboards and Memory

[Uttamattamakin]

11 hours ago, YoMz said:

there are so many shoebox sized builds for ITX cases that would give you a lot more performance even if you DIY build it... I think the trouble you are mainly having right now is due to your conflicting thoughts about your build "I want an APU but my workload is pretty demanding"

 

you should look at all those ultra compact ITX cases and see where you can take them for your current demands... heck there are even builds out there that are sub 12L and have peak specs at the same time... I think going APU for a demanding workload is a mistake even if that APU is 8-core... don't gimp your build just because your space is limited...

A problem with a shoebox sized build is usually thermal issues.  For the sort of code I run for scientific applications being able to get rid of heat in a reliable and endurant manner is of great concern.  The Thermaltak Core V1 was selected because it is small, but not so small that the parts will suffocate for air cooling. It can also get some reasonable water cooling (AIO) in it if needed.  

 

3 hours ago, jaslion said:

Worded it wrongly. I meant getting a micro atx bases system wouldn't increase the size as most smaller micro atx cases are the same size as your case.

I don't feel like buying a new case.  That feels wasteful. 

3 hours ago, DriftMan said:

they are pretty much shit in terms of GPU performance, I expected them to be way better than the 3400G but... nope, what a pitty

The 3200G is able to game quite well in Linux not AAA but a nice distraction for an hour or two.  What I really want from an AMD APU is a very Linux friendly desktop experience.  

Nvidia is not really super Linux friendly so I woulnd't want to rely on them .  That is another reason to what a good APU.    Which leads me to another reason to think the APU in desktop may be dead.  

Why buy a graphics card if your APU is there and is good enough?  

[YoMz]

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

A problem with a shoebox sized build is usually thermal issues.  For the sort of code I run for scientific applications being able to get rid of heat in a reliable and endurant manner is of great concern.  The Thermaltak Core V1 was selected because it is small, but not so small that the parts will suffocate for air cooling. It can also get some reasonable water cooling (AIO) in it if needed. 

well you already have your shoebox sized case with the Core V1 and yet you are still opting for an APU when you literally have up to 280-300mm clearance of gpu space (depending if you use the 200mm fan or not) like I said, your problem right now is that you are opting for an APU when you literally can fit a full system in a shoebox build... thermals are not an issue because of the sheer amount of modern coolers available in the market that fits in the Core V1 (pretty sure you can fit a 240mm AIO in there with no problems as well)