Pico power supply help needed

[Mindtwister138]

Hello, 

 

I am building a Mini ITX PC, and I have everything ready except the power supply. I have to use pico due to the form factor. I am using a Gigabyte AB350N Gaming Wifi board with an AMD Ryzen 3 2200g. The power supply calculator shows that I need 337 Watts with everything I have. I am thinking about getting the RGEEK 24pin PSU 12V DC Input 150W Peak Output Switch DC-DC ATX Pico PSU Mini ITX PC Power.

 

My questions are: will this power supply work, and what part would be recommended to plug into the wall?

 

Sorry for the long post and thank you for any help with this.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Mindtwister138
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[Bombastinator]

12 minutes ago, Mindtwister138 said:

Hello, 

 

I am building a Mini ITX PC, and I have everything ready except the power supply. I have to use pico due to the form factor. I am using a Gigabyte AB350N Gaming Wifi board with an AMD Ryzen 3 2200g. The power supply calculator shows that I need 337 Watts with everything I have. I am thinking about getting the RGEEK 24pin PSU 12V DC Input 150W Peak Output Switch DC-DC ATX Pico PSU Mini ITX PC Power.

 

My questions are: will this power supply work, and what part would be recommended to plug into the wall?

 

Sorry for the long post and thank you for any help with this.

According to the 337watts thing probably no.  337 watts seems strangely high though.  That is a number that would normally include a discrete gpu.  It may also count the draw of various USB ports which has become non trivial lately.  So if there’s no discrete gpu and you never do major power draw from the ISB ports it might work.  The problem is if someone try’s to fast charge a couple phones  off USB3 ports I could seeing the PSU maybe going boom.

[Alex Atkin UK]

19 minutes ago, Mindtwister138 said:

Hello, 

 

I am building a Mini ITX PC, and I have everything ready except the power supply. I have to use pico due to the form factor. I am using a Gigabyte AB350N Gaming Wifi board with an AMD Ryzen 3 2200g. The power supply calculator shows that I need 337 Watts with everything I have. I am thinking about getting the RGEEK 24pin PSU 12V DC Input 150W Peak Output Switch DC-DC ATX Pico PSU Mini ITX PC Power.

 

My questions are: will this power supply work, and what part would be recommended to plug into the wall?

 

Sorry for the long post and thank you for any help with this.

You also have to bear in mind the top-end PicoPSU explicitly notes that to operate it at its maximum it needs good airflow.

They are designed for ultra low power systems such as 45W TDP and under CPUs.

[Mindtwister138]

5 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

According to the 337watts thing probably no.  337 watts seems strangely high though.  That is a number that would normally include a discrete gpu.  It may also count the draw of various USB ports which has become non trivial lately.  So if there’s no discrete gpu and you never do major power draw from the ISB ports it might work.  The problem is if someone try’s to fast charge a couple phones  off USB3 ports I could seeing the PSU maybe going boom.

When I filled out the calculator, it jumped up due to the SSD drives I'm putting in. I have 2 1TB drives and a 500GB M.2 going in. Would that be the reason for the higher wattage?

 

Also, I just put it all in the calculator again and now it shows 277W. Maybe the first time I put in something wrong.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Mindtwister138
Additional info

[Mindtwister138]

5 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

You also have to bear in mind the top-end PicoPSU explicitly notes that to operate it at its maximum it needs good airflow.

They are designed for ultra low power systems such as 45W TDP and under CPUs.

I do have a couple of mini fans I'm going to put in for airflow. 

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, Mindtwister138 said:

When I filled out the calculator, it jumped up due to the SSD drives I'm putting in. I have 2 1TB drives and a 500GB M.2 going in. Would that be the reason for the higher wattage?

 

Also, I just put it all in the calculator again and now it shows 277W. Maybe the first time I put in something wrong.

I don’t normally think of SSDs as taking a lot of power. Could be. Or you did it wrong the second time. Doesn’t matter though.  It’s still way way over 150w.  Board is 75w by itself. Cpu is 65w minimum.  That’s already near 150 and that’s the lowest possible draw.  Doesn’t account for other stuff.   I’d say you could maybe make it go and it wouldn’t necessarily explode instantly.  Do ANYTHING without being careful though and you risk a pop.  The point @Alex Atkin UK makes says it’s even worse than that.  Bad idea even with most forgiving interpretation. And the most forgiving interpretation is almost certainly missing something important. 

[Mindtwister138]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

I don’t normally think of SSDs as taking a lot of power. Could be. Or you did it wrong the second time. Doesn’t matter though.  It’s still way way over 150w.  Board is 75w by itself. Cpu is 65w minimum.  That’s already near 150 and that’s the lowest possible draw.  Doesn’t account for other stuff.   I’d say you could maybe make it go and it wouldn’t necessarily explode instantly.  Do ANYTHING without being careful though and you risk a pop.  The point @Alex Atkin UK makes says it’s even worse than that.  Bad idea even with most forgiving interpretation. And the most forgiving interpretation is almost certainly missing something important. 

So, what I'm talking away from this is that a pico supply isn't going to work without a lot of risk.

 

In that case, is there anything else I can use in a Mini ITX case as a power supply? Or would it be better to switch to a mini ATX case instead?

 

 

[Blue4130]

7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I don’t normally think of SSDs as taking a lot of power. Could be. Or you did it wrong the second time. Doesn’t matter though.  It’s still way way over 150w.  Board is 75w by itself. Cpu is 65w minimum.  That’s already near 150 and that’s the lowest possible draw.  Doesn’t account for other stuff.   I’d say you could maybe make it go and it wouldn’t necessarily explode instantly.  Do ANYTHING without being careful though and you risk a pop.  The point @Alex Atkin UK makes says it’s even worse than that.  Bad idea even with most forgiving interpretation. And the most forgiving interpretation is almost certainly missing something important. 

I really doubt the board pulls 75w without a cpu. That's about 10x what a standard B450 pulls. 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Blue4130 said:

I really doubt the board pulls 75w without a cpu. That's about 10x what a standard B450 pulls. 

It’s an attempt at basic approximation.  75w what a single slot of pcie is rated for.  I don’t remember what the b450 chipset itself pulls. 6w?  Less than 10 x570 pulls 10 or 15 or something and it needs a fricken fan.  The thing is the chipset isn’t all there is on a motherboard. Allocating 75w to the motherboard means it won’t explode if you stick a WiFi card in a Pcie slot or something. Random allocation of fans, etc.  stick a 1650 in it and that whole 75 w is sucked up instantly though leaving I don’t know what for everything else.  More than 6w for sure.  Would also cover the odd sata connection but not the external sata power.  An M.2 could be in that 75w perhaps.  I’m not sure how this things draw power.  Everything they get comes off the 24 pin though.  It’s a simplification to get some sort of quick ballpark instead of adding up the draw of every component which wasn’t listed in the first place.  What it shows is trying to run the thing on a 150w PSU While perhaps possible, is a bad idea.  Allocating 75w to the motherboard means there a spitting chance of not blowing the PSU by someone just randomly sticking something in a port, but it’s still too close to the edge for safety imho.  You’ve got to worry about someone in the house stuffing in an external usb drive or trying to charge a phone and blowing the thing. 200w I might be more comfortable with.  At 200 w it would be worth seeing if some power savings could be gotten by switching from data to m.2 and whatnot.  Doing the numbers more carefully.  Still wouldn’t put a card in the pcie slot though unless it was a WiFi card or something. 

[Bombastinator]

8 hours ago, Mindtwister138 said:

So, what I'm talking away from this is that a pico supply isn't going to work without a lot of risk.

 

In that case, is there anything else I can use in a Mini ITX case as a power supply? Or would it be better to switch to a mini ATX case instead?

 

 

A pico PSU of that draw anyway.  I’ve heard of pico PSUs that go up to 350w.  If you could find a 200w it might be worth doing the math on.  A 150w isn’t even close enough with gift levels though. Even if it works you’re going to break 140w of draw.  You don’t want to get right up to 150. Fluctuations happen.  With a 200w PSU if it turns out you pull 170w for a little bit it’s no big deal. With a 150w PSU though, boom.

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

It’s an attempt at basic approximation.  75w what a single slot of pcie is rated for.  I don’t remember what the b450 chipset itself pulls. 6w?  Less than 10 x570 pulls 10 or 15 or something and it needs a fricken fan.  The thing is the chipset isn’t all there is on a motherboard. Allocating 75w to the motherboard means it won’t explode if you stick a WiFi card in a Pcie slot or something. Random allocation of fans, etc.  stick a 1650 in it and that whole 75 w is sucked up instantly though leaving I don’t know what for everything else.  More than 6w for sure.  Would also cover the odd sata connection but not the external sata power.  An M.2 could be in that 75w perhaps.  I’m not sure how this things draw power.  Everything they get comes off the 24 pin though.  It’s a simplification to get some sort of quick ballpark instead of adding up the draw of every component which wasn’t listed in the first place.  What it shows is trying to run the thing on a 150w PSU While perhaps possible, is a bad idea.  Allocating 75w to the motherboard means there a spitting chance of not blowing the PSU by someone just randomly sticking something in a port, but it’s still too close to the edge for safety imho.  You’ve got to worry about someone in the house stuffing in an external usb drive or trying to charge a phone and blowing the thing. 200w I might be more comfortable with.  At 200 w it would be worth seeing if some power savings could be gotten by switching from data to m.2 and whatnot.  Doing the numbers more carefully.  Still wouldn’t put a card in the pcie slot though unless it was a WiFi card or something. 

That is the most ridiculous way of determining power requirements. So an X570 full atx draws like 900w? A much more realistic way is to base it on what you actually use. 

[Mindtwister138]

5 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

A pico PSU of that draw anyway.  I’ve heard of pico PSUs that go up to 350w.  If you could find a 200w it might be worth doing the math on.  A 150w isn’t even close enough with gift levels though. Even if it works you’re going to break 140w of draw.  You don’t want to get right up to 150. Fluctuations happen.  With a 200w PSU if it turns out you pull 170w for a little bit it’s no big deal. With a 150w PSU though, boom.

I'll check for a higher wattage pico supply and see if you guys think it works. I have based this build from a video I saw, and it's my first build. 

 

One other thing I have noticed is that with the wattage calculators out there, the calculated wattage varies differently, and I don't understand why.

 

I would like to do this with the case I have, but if it's too risky, I'll buy a different case to use, one that can accommodate a larger power supply.

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

That is the most ridiculous way of determining power requirements. So an X570 full atx draws like 900w? A much more realistic way is to base it on what you actually use. 

That wouldn’t be the number you’d get with x570 atx. It might be more than 75w.  I don’t know.  75w is (or more accurately for a long time was) the fudge number for “a motherboard” 900 is dead stupid.  You want to determine a new more modern fudge number have fun. 

 

 It’s not a way of determining anything specific.  It’s a fudge factor.   It’s a quick and now possibly out of date method to attempt to ballpark more or less how close it was and what safety levels are like.  It was developed before m.2 and usb2 though so it’s very possibly  low and possibly doesn’t work for just “a motherboard” anymore.  The board in question is mini itx though so actual specific numbers are going to be a bit lower.  Old fudge factor might still be good enough.  every single device isn’t listed and can’t even be known in the first place.  Determining things before one could draw a whole freaking amp from a single USB port was a lot easier.  Watts and amps are different things but there is a converter in there.  This is about the PSU.   75w was the 1995 number.  You want to figure out what each single device and part of that board be my guest.  They aren’t listed. The only way to do it without knowing what all is there and might get plugged in in the future is with a nice healthy fudge number.  The standard fudge number for mother boards is 75w so I used it.  You want to survey every motherboard made and develop a new fudge number go ahead.  The specific determination might even squidge in under 150 watt. The problem is even close to 150 watts can cause problems because now there are more variable draws and less control over what may happen in the future which means more slop is needed. 

 

[Bombastinator]

40 minutes ago, Mindtwister138 said:

I'll check for a higher wattage pico supply and see if you guys think it works. I have based this build from a video I saw, and it's my first build. 

 

One other thing I have noticed is that with the wattage calculators out there, the calculated wattage varies differently, and I don't understand why.

 

I would like to do this with the case I have, but if it's too risky, I'll buy a different case to use, one that can accommodate a larger power supply.

The reason they vary is people are using different fudge numbers.  The machine, when built, will have a measurable wall draw, but until it’s built or all parts are at least known, one has to guess, so fudge numbers.  There’s a video LTT did a while ago where they try to make the lowest draw machine  they can and then do a wall draw test. They’ve got actual engineers and whole parts libraries at LTT.  They can do stuff like that. Follow that video you might get a pretty similar number.  My memory is it was fairly close to 100w.  I don’t remember in what direction. Or the parts you have may turn out to be less efficient than the ones he could find and it will be higher.   Imho with parts described It will be pretty damn hard to hit 200w so it looks to me like it’s safe. Actual wall power draw when you’re all done might turn out to be half that.  So win. Probably won’t be though. 
 

the LTT video:

Watching the video they got 140 or something from an Xbox 1x with nothing plugged into it.  That’s too close to 150, and I don’t have confidence that 150 could even be hit, so 200.

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

That wouldn’t be the number you’d get with x570 atx. It might be more than 75w.  I don’t know.  75w is (or more accurately for a long time was) the fudge number for “a motherboard” 900 is dead stupid.  You want to determine a new more modern fudge number have fun. 

 

 It’s not a way of determining anything specific.  It’s a fudge factor.   It’s a quick and now possibly out of date method to attempt to ballpark more or less how close it was and what safety levels are like.  It was developed before m.2 and usb2 though so it’s very possibly  low and possibly doesn’t work for just “a motherboard” anymore.  The board in question is mini itx though so actual specific numbers are going to be a bit lower.  Old fudge factor might still be good enough.  every single device isn’t listed and can’t even be known in the first place.  Determining things before one could draw a whole freaking amp from a single USB port was a lot easier.  Watts and amps are different things but there is a converter in there.  This is about the PSU.   75w was the 1995 number.  You want to figure out what each single device and part of that board be my guest.  They aren’t listed. The only way to do it without knowing what all is there and might get plugged in in the future is with a nice healthy fudge number.  The standard fudge number for mother boards is 75w so I used it.  You want to survey every motherboard made and develop a new fudge number go ahead.  The specific determination might even squidge in under 150 watt. The problem is even close to 150 watts can cause problems because now there are more variable draws and less control over what may happen in the future which means more slop is needed. 

 

I am going by your method though to get 900. Full atx has up to 6 Pci-e slots, so using your logic, that alone is 75x6. See the fallacy? You can't calculate until you know what hardware will be used. A motherboard with nothing in the slots doesn't need power to cover the potential if you are not using it. It's just wasted. Base needs off what will actually be used, not what a maximum loaded config is. Especially if you know that you will never max it out. 

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

I am going by your method though to get 900. Full atx has up to 6 Pci-e slots, so using your logic, that alone is 75x6. See the fallacy? You can't calculate until you know what hardware will be used. A motherboard with nothing in the slots doesn't need power to cover the potential if you are not using it. It's just wasted. Base needs off what will actually be used, not what a maximum loaded config is. Especially if you know that you will never max it out. 

Ignoring of course that most of those would be x1 slots.  You want to whine about the 75w fudge factor for “a motherboard” go find the person that made it up and whine at him/her.  It wasn’t me.  Most likely you’ll be doing it to a grave as whoever it is is most likely dead. You don’t like fudge factors at all? Cool. No one does. 
 

fudge factors have a way of multiplying over time because people will take the old fudge factor, realize there’s an exactitude problem, and add some more for safety.  I happened to know a really old one and used it straight.  So gift number. 

[Blue4130]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Ignoring of course that most of those would be x1 slots.  You want to whine about the 75w fudge factor for “a motherboard” go find the person that made it up and whine at him/her.  It wasn’t me.  Most likely you’ll be doing it to a grave as whoever it is is most likely dead. You don’t like fudge factors at all? Cool. No one does. 
 

fudge factors have a way of multiplying over time because people will take the old fudge factor, realize there’s an exactitude problem, and add some more for safety.  I happened to know a really old one and used it straight.  So gift number. 

Don't get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you. I have never in my life heard of a 75w motherboard fudge factor. And a quick Google shows nothing close to 75w. That is why I question your methods. If you can't back up your claim without getting hostile, then I am done. 

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Don't get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you. I have never in my life heard of a 75w motherboard fudge factor. And a quick Google shows nothing close to 75w. That is why I question your methods. If you can't back up your claim without getting hostile, then I am done. 

So what do you have?  You got a lower number or a higher number?  OP was apparently getting MUCH higher numbers.   All I got is an old number.

[Mateyyy]

22 hours ago, Mindtwister138 said:

My questions are: will this power supply work, and what part would be recommended to plug into the wall?

I'm not familiar with that particular form factor, but what I can say is that 150W will be enough for a 2200G and a couple of drives.

[Blue4130]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

So what do you have?  You got a lower number or a higher number?  OP was apparently getting MUCH higher numbers.   All I got is an old number.

Number for what? Op's build? No number because he didn't list what his build consists of. Any guess would be pure speculation. 

 

For a motherboard? About 10w would be a good number. 

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Number for what? Op's build? No number because he didn't list what his build consists of. Any guess would be pure speculation. 

 

For a motherboard? About 10w would be a good number. 

Exactly.  So fudge factor.  
10w would absolutely be off by 50% low for an x570 itx with nothing on it but the chipset.  for a b450 you’ve got to worry about the b450 chipset, which is let’s call it 6 though it might not be, and anything else on the board.  You’re saying a bare board outside the chipset would be only 4w.  As long as you’re willing to pay for this guy’s system if he blows it up using your numbers I’m fine with that. @Mateyyy says he thinks most of it should fit.  I actually agree, the problem is should.  “Will” I can’t be certain, and until the thing is built and wall tested, or at the very least till every component is known there no way for me to be.  I’m saying 200 for safety because my numbers aren’t all that solid.  @Mateyyy is saying 150.  He may have better numbers than me. Given the LTT video do I think he’ll hit 100 or lower? No. I think it’s unlikely.  Things look more low mid 100s to me. But one never knows and USB3 carries a big monkey wrench so I’m saying 200 just to be sure. 
 

It would be kind of handy if we had this video the OP says he’s building his system off of.  If it was the LTT video I linked I stand by my statement. 

[Blue4130]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Exactly.  So fudge factor.

I reiterate, your fudge factor is ridiculous. 

 

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/gigabyte-ab350-gaming-3-review/2/

 

His complete system using this board only draws 122w under load, and that's with a GPU. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

1 minute ago, Blue4130 said:

I reiterate, your fudge factor is ridiculous. 

 

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/gigabyte-ab350-gaming-3-review/2/

 

His complete system using this board only draws 122w under load, and that's with a GPU. 

It also points out that one wrong move in the BIOS resulting in an overclock and your PicoPSU goes bang.  I would be rather nervous in that situation personally.

[Blue4130]

1 minute ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

It also points out that one wrong move in the BIOS resulting in an overclock and your PicoPSU goes bang.  I would be rather nervous in that situation personally.

I don't disagree with you there. I never said that the pico would be enough, just disagree with @Bombastinatorabout motherboard power needs.

 

To @Mindtwister138 look into flexatx power supplies, plenty of power if the case can accept it. 

[Bombastinator]

56 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

I reiterate, your fudge factor is ridiculous. 

 

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/gigabyte-ab350-gaming-3-review/2/

 

His complete system using this board only draws 122w under load, and that's with a GPU. 

It’s not “my” fudge factor.  I didn’t make it up. Also I updated the post.  Your link is even older than the LTT video.  It’s using a ryzen1 1700 which is not an apu. So it HAS to have a gpu.  This link basically says the same thing.  It is unlikely to fit in a 100w envelope. There’s a chance it will fit in a 150w envelope. Maybe a good one.  I think that the chance that it is below 200w approaches 100%, but I don’t think the chance that it is below 150w in all circumstances Approaches 100%. So I say 200.  It might still wind up being under 100w.  It’s just very hard to know, especially because it can change drastically with mere settings.  
 

If the OP happens to have a machine with a PSU of 200w or greater it’s easy.  Order the parts NOT INCLUDING the PSU, breadboard the machine rent a wall measurement device like that use in the LTT video or use a multimeter and do the math. In my area those wall meters can be checked out for free from the local library.  Ymmv.   Then once you know what the machine draws, buy a PSU that fits. I am saying that I think the chance that the number you find after doing this may be more than 150 so making sure a 200w PSU is available is a good idea.  I’m likely the least electronically knowledgeable person in the thread though so naturally my number is bigger.