DirectX & OpenGL to open up low-level access

[beebskadoo]

Ah, well in that case it should from our standpoint, but it never will, as they think it would hurt their win8 sales. Although I think it would be a negligible number, and M$ would have more to gain from that move, as it would hurt the Linux base much more than win8, basically crippling Linux gaming IMHO.

I love the concept of Linux gaming, the community is nerdy and my kind of people, but Linux gaming hasn't got to the point yet that it's a totally viable option. for indie games? yes! totally, the support is rapidly growing despite some people saying it isn't. I don't think Microsoft sees it as a threat, though they didn't see Apple or Android as a threat and now look at them...just one step above Blackberry. i.e. shit, when are they going to learn to listen to their customers? Apparently Microsoft thinks they can go off of name brand and market share dominance forever, (refer to Blackberry and Nokia for a great example)

[beebskadoo]

Should, but you know they wont, they will do the same thing they've done with Direct X every single time: Hijack it under an update to force people to open their wallets (or without conceding or condoning, their favorite torrent site)

PC gaming isn't their focus, it hasn't been for years. Xbox all the way!  

there just isn't enough money in it apparently, which is odd because there isn't much money in Nokia, they seem more focused on that even though that company ran itself into the ground, so much so that they have doubled back on their statements about supporting Android on their phones. Guess times change... Good thing the CEO of Nokia will be leading the Xbox division, maybe he'll run that into the ground too, or just cancel it as he said he would do.

[MzCatieB]

DX12 has been in the pipeline for a while now

[Misanthrope]

PC gaming isn't their focus, it hasn't been for years. Xbox all the way!

there just isn't enough money in it apparently, which is odd because there isn't much money in Nokia, they seem more focused on that even though that company ran itself into the ground, so much so that they have doubled back on their statements about supporting Android on their phones. Guess times change... Good thing the CEO of Nokia will be leading the Xbox division, maybe he'll run that into the ground too, or just cancel it as he said he would do.

 

True, but read my theory: Maybe Elop has a different strategy, he did wanted to specifically sell the xbox division, he might go for something (stupid) like unifying the xbone and PC, like Games for Windows Live but more closely.

[Fetzie]

lets not try to compare consoles and gaming pc b/c they serve two different purposes to gamers. Consoles are for people who just want to plug and play and not need to worry about technical issues.

 

Well, not worry about technical issues other than red rings of death, orange status LEDs, HDMI ports not working, disc drives not working, the thing dying because Microsoft forgot to include a fan in the spec or a plethora of other technical issues

[rentaspoon]

To little, to late.

[Nineshadow]

I expect DirectX One.

[Humbug]

I love the concept of Linux gaming, the community is nerdy and my kind of people, but Linux gaming hasn't got to the point yet that it's a totally viable option. for indie games? yes! totally, the support is rapidly growing despite some people saying it isn't. I don't think Microsoft sees it as a threat

Microsoft does not make any money directly off PC gaming, so they probably are not too worried about PC gamers shifting to Linux+opengl. Losing out on windows sales to gamers is probably a far smaller concern to them than their corporate market.

 

If you watch the steam dev days lectures you would notice that their wasn't actually any fanboy talk about trying to replace Microsoft. It was simply about using opengl and following certain design principles to make sure your games are cross platform across Linux, OSX and Windows.

[mr moose]

Microsoft have been planning and playing a long term game,  The look and feel of win8, their Nokia acquisition, Their investment in major cloud computing and storage infrastructure all points to a heavily competitive battle for market share in the not too distant future, and one they have no intention of loosing.  No longer can a phone company or software company rely on being innovative, they have to be easy, cheap and reliable too.  That is why apple are loosing market share, that is why black berry are struggling (dead?) and that is where MS don't want to be.  Unfortunately for gamers we don't provide enough profit to warrant being a part of that bigger picture. That  is why we feel unloved by MS and why their efforts seem vein at best.  AT best they are putting a little more effort into DX so it doesn't become a sink hole in the company, at worst it is lip service to hold onto gamers until the new strategies start paying off and they can re-invest n the whole gaming side of the market. 

 

I hope things aren't as bleak for gamers as I state them, but MS is not here for us, they are here to make money and plan to do it for a long time.

[Andrew48]

I think this is the reason AMD made mantle. to make microsoft worry and make them update directX

[TizzyT]

I don't think the first paragraph is correct. AMD has already said they don't care if Mantle is widely adopted. They care if the industry is changed because of it. Whether that means a new, infinitely better, DirectX comes out, or Mantle becomes Dominant, or Nvidia comes out with something that beats both of them, it doesn't matter. Just so long as things change for the better. 

I agree with that second paragraph though. Fundamentally flawed is fundamentally flawed. Unless you start from scratch, there's really no point.

Not enough extra work for developers to care, based on what the developer's summit had to say about it. AMD has said Nvidia could add Mantle support if they wanted to. Just like AMD could have added PhysX support if they wanted to.

Physx is proprietary so unless they feel like getting a license they aren't going to support it. It wouldn't make sense for Nvidia to buy out Ageia just to provide Physx free for everyone else.

 

As for DX I personal have no beef with it, Its music to my ears when anything is improved upon. OpenGL while I've never done anything with it, I am glad that it's getting improvements aswell. As for Mantle, I salute that it caused change but its unpolished and while it might hold promise it still isn't adopted by others.

[Humbug]

I despise this kind of marketing, especially from companies like Microsoft, which have started doing it on every front. So, it's safe to say, OpenGL is more than welcome to knock DX of off it's throne.

It's easy for us to say that... but developers have never been forced to use directX. Opengl works on windows, Linux and OSX and seems ideal in theory.

So there must be a good reason why most devs pick directX and clearly Microsoft has been doing something right.

[Andrew48]

FINALLY!!
Its happening!

[Monchi]

well that's great news, it seems the competition is boiling now!

[carolkarine]

All of you people complaining about windows surprise me. I mean, I know people don't like 8, but I will most certainly not be waiting around to upgrade. I'll hop on the new os pretty quickly.

[zeiferlance]

amazing! so glad this is happening

[deathjester]

OpenGL does not need SteamOS. It runs on Linux based OS since day 1. Every couple of years, people say how Linux will dominate Windows, and Windows will be irrelevant for gaming, but it's the same thing that happens every single time. Manufactures that have Linux drivers, updates them, because the current one are so old. it's not even funny, then Linux based OS doesn't really pick up. Even with Netbooks, where they running mostly a Linux based OS (mostly Ubuntu) and yet, people switch back to Windows. They are more to gaming on a PC. You don't realize it, because you take a lot of thing for granted, or willing to give up on many things. Most aren't.

Your computer is not only newer, but more expensive than the XBox One and PS4.

Yea, people said that since the Super Nintendo days. Sales suggest that it only gets stronger every year.

PS4 is selling extremely well everywhere else. The reason is that the PS4 was targeted at the Western market, which in the recent years, Europe is having a similar taste.

This will shock you.. the WiiU is selling pretty well in Japan. Not like the Wii, granted, but better than the PS4 and XBox 360. In fact, more WiiU got sold than XBox 360 in total in Japan. WiiU was targeted at Asian market not the Western.

 

Sorry no. DirectX works, because it is easier to learn and program than OpenGL. It also has the most documentation, and Microsoft provides support (paying of course, but companies are willing to get). OpenGL you are left on your own. Also, DirectX has better debugging tools than OpenGL.

 

XBox One third party games are also on PS4. PS4 doesn't take DirectX, as it doesn't run Windows. If the game is in OpenGL. So no.

 

1) An I3 and a GTX 750TI are not "super expensive hardware". Both are low wattage, and the 750tI blows the Xbox One GPU away and could go in a SFF and this is before optimization we would see in OpenGL on a Steambox.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/149-nvidia-gtx-750-ti-unveiled-plays-titanfall-better-than-xbox-one/1100-6417813/

 

2) If game devs are making an OpenGL port for SteamOS (which also would run it Linux), why would they make two API versions on the same platform (PC). How is that easier? That is the dumbest thing I have ever read. You seem to be under the impression game devs have zero interest in SteamOS and Steamboxes. Again why would they bother with two API's if OpenGL is faster in Windows then DirectX. They would be doubling their workload for no reason. 

 

3) You seem to be writing revisionist history and claiming MS helped OpenGL or is some kind of champion of OpenGL, when they were the ones who put out a fear campaign for Vista as far back as 2005 and told game developers new versions of OpenGL would not be supported or work, which is one reason the game devs changed from OpenGL to DirectX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_programs

 

Many, many games were OpenGL and some are debugged for other OS's like Max OS (WoW), and some aren't, but that is only because it would double their work, which is exactly why making a port of OpenGL and DirectX for the same platform makes ZERO sense. Learning both API's makes no sense either since everything else is OpenGL and the computer can run OpenGL and so can the Xbox. The PS4/Xbox One are almost identical on hardware and both using a GCN 1.0 AMD GPU. The PS4 has a GPU more then 1/3rd more powerful and uses OpenGL. 

 

The posts you make seem like they are coming from the Comes Vs Microsoft court case MS documents. Page 55 was my favorite. Lays out some of the instructions for astroturfing forums.

 

http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03096.pdf

 

"Ideally use of competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2. Just keep rubbing it in, via the PRESS, analysts, newsgroups, whatever". Oh look. This is exactly the crap I see when people push Win 8 on this forum and it is always the same people! What a surprise.

 

Some of my favorite quotes from the MS documents in the pic below. Now you know why some people think 30 fps > 60 fps, 720p > 1080p. It takes a lot of work to brainwash people...and it is interesting that in the MS documents it is referred to as "mind control".

 

Anyways continue with the idea that MS did not hinder OpenGL, but is a champion of it. If MS cared about gaming whatsoever? They would put the new DirectX on Windows 7 since it is the same kernel and could run it fine. AMD Mantle works in Windows 7 or 8. OpenGL would see the same performance on 7 or 8 (unless MS hampers it in 7 and doesn't allow the new versions to run). Since we all know MS is never going to do that. nor allow DirectX on Steambox?

Edited February 27, 2014 by MG2R
Please don't be rude. "When you have to raise your voice, you've lost the argument."

[deathjester]

I think this is the reason AMD made mantle. to make microsoft worry and make them update directX

 

They made Mantle instead of doing R&D and trying to match Intel performance in  games that weren't coded for low level.

 

AMD could care less which API wins and they said as much (said "mantle or something like mantle"). AMD is a partner with Intel and Nvidia in the Kronos group that owns OpenGL.

 

AMD wins no matter what API triumphs. Their CPU's get closer to Intel in game performance, which is all they wanted. Mantle was WAY cheaper then R&D and die shrinks on their CPU's. They showed Mantle would help (and it really helped the I3), and got what they wanted. If Mantle is never heard from again when OpenGL/DirectX are optimized? AMD won and will be doing hipthrusts, because their CPU's no longer are blown away by I3's in some games and annihilated by an I5.  

[YeroJero]

It's about bloody time. Seems like microsoft actually had their heads screwed on straight for once.

[deathjester]

It's about bloody time. Seems like microsoft actually had their heads screwed on straight for once.

 

They have no choice. If they don't do this the game devs move to OpenGL. Carmack said OpenGL could match Mantle with extensions eons ago. Kronos group (AMD, Nvidia, Intel are partners) decided to do it with OpenGL. Carmack was simply right.

 

MS announced "plans" when OpenGL is going to provide demos. It isn't about getting their head screwed on right, it is about survival of the DirectX API.

 

If MS gave a damn about gaming or their userbase? They would let the new DirectX work on 7 with the same kernel, like Mantle does and OpenGL will. They don't and they won't. This is about pushing Windows 8/9 and keeping DirectX alive.

 

You have two scenarios and AMD wins in both of them (better game performance for their cpu's).

 

1) OpenGL is adopted by game devs and SteamOS, Linux are now able to play games native with equal performance as Windows (besides the native opengl ports where they are already faster then DirectX). PC gaming just became 100 dollars minimum cheaper on build prices and PC gaming will grow even more, which means more games for us and less development time. 

 

2) MS matches the OpenGL improvements and devs make ports for both OpenGL and DirectX (the only way this would happen is bribes/exclusives like what happens on consoles), increasing development time and hurting steam machines immensely, because they won't have several triple A games due to a dumb API monopoly. MS will continue forcing OS upgrades just to play games by withholding DirectX.

 

Anyone who wants 2 to happen is a MS shareholder, an employee, or an imbecile. 

[YeroJero]

They have no choice. If they don't do this the game devs move to OpenGL. Carmack said OpenGL could match Mantle with extensions eons ago. Kronos group (AMD, Nvidia, Intel are partners) decided to do it with OpenGL. Carmack was simply right.

 

MS announced "plans" when OpenGL is going to provide demos. It isn't about getting their head screwed on right, it is about survival of the DirectX API.

 

If MS gave a damn about gaming or their userbase? They would let the new DirectX work on 7 with the same kernel, like Mantle does and OpenGL will. They don't and they won't. This is about pushing Windows 8/9 and keeping DirectX alive.

 

You have two scenarios and AMD wins in both of them (better game performance for their cpu's).

 

1) OpenGL is adopted by game devs and SteamOS, Linux are now able to play games native with equal performance as Windows (besides the native opengl ports where they are already faster then DirectX). PC gaming just became 100 dollars minimum cheaper on build prices and PC gaming will grow even more, which means more games for us and less development time. 

 

2) MS matches the OpenGL improvements and devs make ports for both OpenGL and DirectX (the only way this would happen is bribes/exclusives like what happens on consoles), increasing development time and hurting steam machines immensely, because they won't have several triple A games due to a dumb API monopoly. MS will continue forcing OS upgrades just to play games by withholding DirectX.

 

Anyone who wants 2 to happen is a MS shareholder, an employee, or an imbecile. 

 

Agreed. In the end, business is business and there is very little we can do when our words are falling upon deaf ears.

[GoodBytes]

1) An I3 and a GTX 750TI are not "super expensive hardware". Both are low wattage, and the 750tI blows the Xbox One GPU away and could go in a SFF and this is before optimization we would see in OpenGL on a Steambox.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/149-nvidia-gtx-750-ti-unveiled-plays-titanfall-better-than-xbox-one/1100-6417813/

You still paid more, regardless.

 

 

2) If game devs are making an OpenGL port for SteamOS (which also would run it Linux), why would they make two API versions on the same platform (PC). How is that easier? That is the dumbest thing I have ever read. You seem to be under the impression game devs have zero interest in SteamOS and Steamboxes. Again why would they bother with two API's if OpenGL is faster in Windows then DirectX. They would be doubling their workload for no reason.

 

Competition. The introduction of DirectX is what pushes OpenGL forward. The reason why DirectX got massive popular, was because DirectX was miles ahead of OpenGL with a ground breaking new school of thought in doing things. It's thank to DirectX that OpenGL has advanced so much, and that made DirectX advance too. It's a battle. Look at Nvidia and AMD graphic card, both are always on top of each other, and dropping prices. Competition is good. Look at Intel... We were stuck for AGES with the shitty Pentium 4. It took AMD to bring the big guns with it's AMD Athlon 64 X2, where the mid range model massacre Intel's best offering. It made Intel panic and release garbage Pentium D's which was nothing more than 2x P4's stuck together and crossing their finger it worked. It consumed so much power it's not even funny. Even Linus said that we saw system where they were burned marks on the case. It made Intel wake up, and work their ass off, to FINALLY release their Core 2 Duo. A, like AMD offering, true dual core CPU, 64-bit.

 

3) You seem to be writing revisionist history and claiming MS helped OpenGL or is some kind of champion of OpenGL, when they were the ones who put out a fear campaign for Vista as far back as 2005 and told game developers new versions of OpenGL would not be supported or work, which is one reason the game devs changed from OpenGL to DirectX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_programs

Not my problem if you believe in false rumors and speculations. It was all part of Vista hate.

The end result, shows that, with official, proper, newly optimized drivers, that your statement is false.

 

Many, many games were OpenGL and some are debugged for other OS's like Max OS (WoW), and some aren't, but that is only because it would double their work, which is exactly why making a port of OpenGL and DirectX for the same platform makes ZERO sense.

Most game studios uses engine, or frameworks if you prefer, which allows, from a click of a button, make their game mulch-platform.

 

Learning both API's makes no sense either since everything else is OpenGL and the computer can run OpenGL and so can the Xbox. The PS4/Xbox One are almost identical on hardware and both using a GCN 1.0 AMD GPU. The PS4 has a GPU more then 1/3rd more powerful and uses OpenGL.

 

And yet, developers choose DirectX over and over again.

 

The posts you make seem like they are coming from the Comes Vs Microsoft court case MS documents. Page 55 was my favorite. Lays out some of the instructions for astroturfing forums.

 

http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/3000/PX03096.pdf

I think you ignore the fact that they are billions of web sites on the web. It is physically impossible for Microsoft to even pick high profile web sites and start posting bias responses to try to convince people into their solution.

Money is better spent in marketing let alone continue to work and made the product in question better.

 

"Ideally use of competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2. Just keep rubbing it in, via the PRESS, analysts, newsgroups, whatever". Oh look. This is exactly the crap I see when people push Win 8 on this forum and it is always the same people! What a surprise.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Every company will encourages their employees, even contractually, to speak nothing bad about their product, and be one sided, for the greater good for the company. The way to be successful in a business, is to be very rustles, and sometimes plays with laws to be in your favor. They are no other way, unless extremely lucky, or willing to spend hundred of years. Every company is deeply guilty of this: Disney, Nintendo, Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, Sony, Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it. You put Ethics aside. There is no choice. But what is expected, is that once you are on top, you do some catching up. That is why companies when large, gives back and help communities. Granted not all companies, but that is the consumer choice. But Microsoft deeply support countless charities, Bill Gates and his wife spend all their time they have and resources, in helping in most in need, eradicating malaria at rapid rates, providing schools for developing countries, and a lot more via Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. And I won't be surprised , if Bill gates uses his knowledge in being a ruthless business person at a younger age to be successful, to by-pass governments officials and provides the most funds directly to the ones in needs, and not corrupt governments officials.

Nvidia builds computers for communities who don't have access to computers, this includes schools and community charities shelters, fundraising for charities, and more.

AMD matches employee contributions to charities, does fundraising for charities, recognition for putting employee work aside for volunteering at a recognized charity, and grants

Business is business. You know why the super rich have an image to be very greedy and well.. ruthless. That is why. Business.

You become rich by writhing checks.

 

Some of my favorite quotes from the MS documents in the pic below. Now you know why some people think 30 fps > 60 fps, 720p > 1080p. It takes a lot of work to brainwash people...and it is interesting that in the MS documents it is referred to as "mind control".

Welcome to the world of marketing! You should take a class on intro to marketing. It's all covered.

There is also ethics class to know how to persuade people by not providing technically false information as that would be against the law.

No advertisement will say: "Our product sucks". Mentioning a single downside, is enough to guaranty 0 sales. As the others won't mention it. The car you drive or your parent, have chances of spontaneously explode. Look it up. Fuel in the car is unsafe, and not stable as it emits gas which can combust from heat of the sun, heat from the car but not in the cylinders location and such.

Even a hand cream has downsides.

 

Anyways continue with the idea that MS did not hinder OpenGL, but is a champion of it. If MS cared about gaming whatsoever? They would put the new DirectX on Windows 7 since it is the same kernel and could run it fine. AMD Mantle works in Windows 7 or 8. OpenGL would see the same performance on 7 or 8 (unless MS hampers it in 7 and doesn't allow the new versions to run). Since we all know MS is never going to do that. nor allow DirectX on Steambox?

And you continue to believe in superficial ideas. Hey, maybe this entire forum is part of the illuminati specially formed to brain wash you. Specially designed to get some people agree with you, and others don't, but slowly form your ideas to be thinking that your ideas are wrong. And this statement is carefully been selected to make you believe that this is preposterous. In fact, all this, including Microsoft, are all planned as a master experiment to see if we can brain wash you. A new world domination method. By the alien master race.

[Admire]

Here's the catch....

 

 

wait for it

 

 

 

ONLY ON WINDOWS 8.1!!!

 

just wait!

 

 

 

That is not a secret. That is almost confirmed.

 

They will force us to change to WindowsTurnmypcintotablethell 8 as fast as humanly possible.

[TheProfosist]

That is not a secret. That is almost confirmed.

 

They will force us to change to WindowsTurnmypcintotablethell 8 as fast as humanly possible.

Please dont even start into that, not here, I dont want to have to have a large discussion about windows 8 in a direct x thread.

[Redtiger]

 

I certainly hope Direct X burns. They make improvements by bolting new features onto the same fundamental donkey once every 5-10 years. No matter how you dress it, Its still ass....

 

I hope Microsoft gets back into the game and teach everyone a lesson or two because they have the knowledge and resources to do so.