DirectX & OpenGL to open up low-level access

[Redtiger]

Anyways continue with the idea that MS did not hinder OpenGL, but is a champion of it. If MS cared about gaming whatsoever? They would put the new DirectX on Windows 7 since it is the same kernel and could run it fine. AMD Mantle works in Windows 7 or 8. OpenGL would see the same performance on 7 or 8 (unless MS hampers it in 7 and doesn't allow the new versions to run). Since we all know MS is never going to do that. nor allow DirectX on Steambox?

 

Because of Microsoft the PC industry is where it is at today... Of course MS cares about Gaming, it's a point of interest like in any business. By providing large support you can gain large mass of users. Of course MS did some stuff not everyone is happy with but those type of things happen in each corporation. You people must stop this Fan Boys'. In Europe 95% of the company's run their work stations on MS products (OS; Suite like Office etc.) even if Linux is free and you could get other free suites like Open Office etc.

I run Linux but my main PC is operating on Win7.  I also own licences for Vista and Win8 garbage, right? If Win7 wouldn't be around then I would struggle and use Windows 8.1.

Competition is GOOD for the end USERS! The reason why MS had the courage to release Vista and Win8 at their early state was because they had NO COMPETITION!

Now Everyone is Mantle that, G-Sync this, Microsoft left or right... bla, bla, bla...

 

I AM HAPPY THAT:

- Steam is adding pressure on the Console industry, I hope they will smash their bolls. forcing MS, Sony, Nintendo to release their consoles at a more realistic price or at least with a lot more HP.

- MS is planning to improve DirectX thus bringing us more options to choose from and force the hands of Nvidia and AMD to be even more creative.

 

I hope AMD will relaunch on the CPU market to bring Intel some challenge so we can see some improvements there as well.

 

Each company would have done it exactly the same.. Why invest in buying a younger cow if you can still milk the old one?

[GoodBytes]

While I don't agree that Windows 8 is because of a lack of competition, but yea.

[deathjester]

You still paid more, regardless.

 

 

 

Competition. The introduction of DirectX is what pushes OpenGL forward. The reason why DirectX got massive popular, was because DirectX was miles ahead of OpenGL with a ground breaking new school of thought in doing things. It's thank to DirectX that OpenGL has advanced so much, and that made DirectX advance too. It's a battle. Look at Nvidia and AMD graphic card, both are always on top of each other, and dropping prices. Competition is good. Look at Intel... We were stuck for AGES with the shitty Pentium 4. It took AMD to bring the big guns with it's AMD Athlon 64 X2, where the mid range model massacre Intel's best offering. It made Intel panic and release garbage Pentium D's which was nothing more than 2x P4's stuck together and crossing their finger it worked. It consumed so much power it's not even funny. Even Linus said that we saw system where they were burned marks on the case. It made Intel wake up, and work their ass off, to FINALLY release their Core 2 Duo. A, like AMD offering, true dual core CPU, 64-bit.

 

Not my problem if you believe in false rumors and speculations. It was all part of Vista hate.

The end result, shows that, with official, proper, newly optimized drivers, that your statement is false.

 

Most game studios uses engine, or frameworks if you prefer, which allows, from a click of a button, make their game mulch-platform.

 

 

And yet, developers choose DirectX over and over again.

 

I think you ignore the fact that they are billions of web sites on the web. It is physically impossible for Microsoft to even pick high profile web sites and start posting bias responses to try to convince people into their solution.

Money is better spent in marketing let alone continue to work and made the product in question better.

 

I don't see anything wrong with this. Every company will encourages their employees, even contractually, to speak nothing bad about their product, and be one sided, for the greater good for the company. The way to be successful in a business, is to be very rustles, and sometimes plays with laws to be in your favor. They are no other way, unless extremely lucky, or willing to spend hundred of years. Every company is deeply guilty of this: Disney, Nintendo, Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, Sony, Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it. You put Ethics aside. There is no choice. But what is expected, is that once you are on top, you do some catching up. That is why companies when large, gives back and help communities. Granted not all companies, but that is the consumer choice. But Microsoft deeply support countless charities, Bill Gates and his wife spend all their time they have and resources, in helping in most in need, eradicating malaria at rapid rates, providing schools for developing countries, and a lot more via Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. And I won't be surprised , if Bill gates uses his knowledge in being a ruthless business person at a younger age to be successful, to by-pass governments officials and provides the most funds directly to the ones in needs, and not corrupt governments officials.

Nvidia builds computers for communities who don't have access to computers, this includes schools and community charities shelters, fundraising for charities, and more.

AMD matches employee contributions to charities, does fundraising for charities, recognition for putting employee work aside for volunteering at a recognized charity, and grants

Business is business. You know why the super rich have an image to be very greedy and well.. ruthless. That is why. Business.

You become rich by writhing checks.

 

Welcome to the world of marketing! You should take a class on intro to marketing. It's all covered.

There is also ethics class to know how to persuade people by not providing technically false information as that would be against the law.

No advertisement will say: "Our product sucks". Mentioning a single downside, is enough to guaranty 0 sales. As the others won't mention it. The car you drive or your parent, have chances of spontaneously explode. Look it up. Fuel in the car is unsafe, and not stable as it emits gas which can combust from heat of the sun, heat from the car but not in the cylinders location and such.

Even a hand cream has downsides.

 

And you continue to believe in superficial ideas. Hey, maybe this entire forum is part of the illuminati specially formed to brain wash you. Specially designed to get some people agree with you, and others don't, but slowly form your ideas to be thinking that your ideas are wrong. And this statement is carefully been selected to make you believe that this is preposterous. In fact, all this, including Microsoft, are all planned as a master experiment to see if we can brain wash you. A new world domination method. By the alien master race.

 

A I3 GTX 750TI build would be same price as a Xbox One when you don't have to include Windows (100 bucks of that budget), which was my entire point. The 750ti slaughters the Xbox GPU before optimization. Steam OS is FREE. You also do not need a big PSU. 

 

In addition and this was just the other day that I priced out "next gen" games at www.cheapshark.com (shows amazon, Steam etc, only missing a few). I priced them out for someone wondering about the cost of PC's.

 

Tomb Raider $9.99, AC 4 $33.33, BF4 $29.99, Titanfall preorder $45.00, FIFA 14 $19.99, NBA2k14 $14.99. Now go price those games on a console. 

 

Now add in Xbox Live Gold that you need to even play a game like Elder Scrolls Online. The console is much, much, more money when the hardware is similar and the computer has efficiency with the new api's. 

 

As far as Vista and OpenGL. Game devs heard, this, everyone heard this 2 years before Vista even came out. These are threads from 2005. OpenGL ran articles about this on their own website, telling people Vista would run OpenGL at HALF the speed that it should. This was due to statements by Microsoft. This is a big part of what made DirectX the go to API on Windows. These posts are time stamped at 2005 because that is when OpenGL referred to MS statements.

http://www.astahost.com/topic/7377-microsoft-cripple-opengl-3d-graphics-performance-windows-vista-longhorn/

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84579

 

As far as "competition" why would they BOTHER making 2 ports. One for linux/Steam machine/Steam OS and one for Windows, when Windows can run OpenGL? Again this makes no sense. DirectX has never pushed the envelope on API's. It is behind OpenGL atm without optimization. 

 

So you are 1) selling these consoles as a good value, which they will not be close to being a "good value" with optimization. 2) referring to historical events as rumors. 3) Wanting two or worse 3 API's which will fracture the PC gaming industry in between versions of Windows (people refusing to use Win 8), and screwing over PC gaming growth that it could see from Steam OS, Linux, and all OS's on the PC running games well.

 

The only winner in this would be Microsoft. Everyone else loses. PC gamers lose. PC users on any OS but the newest Windows lose. The game devs waste time debugging two versions on the same hardware. The only people who benefit from this is shareholders, MS employees and Sony (their console would take a big hit). 

[BloodySinner]

This means we won't all be sucking AMD's dick to buy their GPU's just for Mantle. Nvidia all the way

 

So you prefer Nvidia dick?

[DoubleY]

So you prefer Nvidia dick?

Yes. Yes I do

[mr moose]

 

AMD wins no matter what API triumphs. Their CPU's get closer to Intel in game performance, which is all they wanted. Mantle was WAY cheaper then R&D and die shrinks on their CPU's. They showed Mantle would help (and it really helped the I3), and got what they wanted. If Mantle is never heard from again when OpenGL/DirectX are optimized? AMD won and will be doing hipthrusts, because their CPU's no longer are blown away by I3's in some games and annihilated by an I5.  

 

wow, you said something I agree with.  Is the world going to end? 

 

AMD (due to their financial position over the last few years) have not been able to invest in R+D like nvidia/intel have.  Their only option was software development, thus mantle, new drivers*  and bundling a butt load of games is where they had to go.  Things will change, the market will pick up and this whole mantly/dx/opengl thing will slide into the past again with people going back to concentrate on  the best $/frame GPU again.

 

*by new drivers I actually mean getting off their butts and fixing the ones they have rather than let them linger until sales start dropping.

[GoodBytes]

A I3 GTX 750TI build would be same price as a Xbox One when you don't have to include Windows (100 bucks of that budget), which was my entire point. The 750ti slaughters the Xbox GPU before optimization. Steam OS is FREE. You also do not need a big PSU.

Regardless, you still paid more.

 

As far as Vista and OpenGL. Game devs heard, this, everyone heard this 2 years before Vista even came out. These are threads from 2005. OpenGL ran articles about this on their own website, telling people Vista would run OpenGL at HALF the speed that it should. This was due to statements by Microsoft. This is a big part of what made DirectX the go to API on Windows. These posts are time stamped at 2005 because that is when OpenGL referred to MS statements.

http://www.astahost.com/topic/7377-microsoft-cripple-opengl-3d-graphics-performance-windows-vista-longhorn/

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84579

THAT?! That is what 'caused you to freak out like crazy? OMG!. Now I understand. Dude! you can't mix DirectX with OpenGL. The Windows GUI engine (Aero) of Vista and up is rendered in DirectX. XP isn't. It uses the CPU to draw everything. To maximize system performance, and improve system responsiveness, Microsoft FINALLY, decided "Yup, graphic card with decent power are affordable, lets do a GUI engine, called Aero, that uses the GPU, instead of using the CPU which sucks like crazy at drawing" (sadly, OEMs prefer ripping off consumers with Intel free graphic solution that can't even play, at the time, a DVD perfectly smoothly. But that is a different story). If they picked OpenGL, then it would be the reverse... But why would Microsoft pick OpenGL? Even if you were the person taking that decision, you would pick DirectX.

Dude, don't jump to conclusions. You freak out over nothing.

 

DirectX has never pushed the envelope on API's. It is behind OpenGL atm without optimization.

Yea it did! Huge number of times. Every time there is a new version of DirectX, everyone here is excited about how next gen games will look, by looking at the provided tech demo's.

Same when there is OpenGL new version. When Microsoft introduced DirectX, developers went crazy over it (although it had excitement, adaption rate was slow, due that well you had to learn something new and back in the day, you needed deep optimization to get something working, due to the ultra low performance at the time, but also DOS was popular, and DirectX didn't work on DOS or Windows 3.x It needed Windows 95. DOS didn't have the infrastructure for. OpenGL didn't exists back then... well it did, as SIG exclusive API for their graphic card, which are exclusively sold with their custom computers, which cost a fortune.

That is why you have a huge amount of developers using and preferring DirectX. Not it's not to say that OpenGL didn't raise the bar and pushed thing either. It sure did.. but it moves just as fast as a can of tomato in a race, because it was focus on specif 3D software based on clients needs), NOT gaming, and NOT to "push graphics to the next level" if you allow my marketing sounding point. DirectX pushed OpenGL to wake up and get itself in gear. SIG knew it could not complete against DirectX, it was loosing software support, so it made it eventually open.

 

So you are 1) selling these consoles as a good value, which they will not be close to being a "good value" with optimization. 2) referring to historical events as rumors. 3) Wanting two or worse 3 API's which will fracture the PC gaming industry in between versions of Windows (people refusing to use Win 8), and screwing over PC gaming growth that it could see from Steam OS, Linux, and all OS's on the PC running games well.

1- It is a good value. PS4 is potentially even a greater value. And so is the WiiU.

2- "historical events" yea ok. Fine call it that, if makes you happy. Wrong choice of word buddy. But, to answer you. Now that I know what you are freaking about, you have miss and/or incomplete information, and basing an opinion on it.

3-So far, not a problem. YOU don't want to use Windows 8. I see a nice number of people on this very forum upgrading to Windows 8. And a lot of people like it, as is. Just check the OS section of the forum. The proof is there. But let's assume you are right. Well then, Linux based OS would be one clustered disaster, with so many Linux based OS, all with their own tweak and modification. Many at the kernel level too. Some programs don't work between distros even.

4- Ah yes! It's the different version of Windows that has 'cause the decline of PC sales... suuuuuuuuure. It created so much confusion that people decided to no longer buy PC's, and run on select one of the billion'th Android distro. [/sarcasm] I think you loss your train of thought buddy, or miss explained yourself.

 

The only winner in this would be Microsoft. Everyone else loses. PC gamers lose. PC users on any OS but the newest Windows lose. The game devs waste time debugging two versions on the same hardware. The only people who benefit from this is shareholders, MS employees and Sony (their console would take a big hit).

Without DirectX, we would be using the wonderful WinG, which is what DirectX replaced completely. At the time OpenGL did not exist... well ok it did, but it was specific to SGI computers, which I hope you had the money, as they were selling at 8 000$ back in the early 90's. That is about 13 000$ today! OpenGL on other graphics card was not available back then. I THINK (see, I am not sure now), that you saw the first consumer graphic card (gaming graphic card, if you prefer) with full OpenGL support in about 1997-98 if I recall correctly. That is after DirectX was released. Wikipedia, says that OpenGL 1.1 was released in 1997. So yea. No DirectX... most likely no OpenGL. Or much later. Doesn't the fact that Silicon Graphics

It was in 2006, when SGI closed in 2009 that the Khronos Group was formed and OpenGL is what it is. If DirectX was not out, SGI would probably would have keep it for itself, and possibly have OpenGL die with itself.

So as much as you hate DirectX for some reason, it made the gaming world we are in today.

[deathjester]

wow, you said something I agree with.  Is the world going to end? 

 

AMD (due to their financial position over the last few years) have not been able to invest in R+D like nvidia/intel have.  Their only option was software development, thus mantle, new drivers*  and bundling a butt load of games is where they had to go.  Things will change, the market will pick up and this whole mantly/dx/opengl thing will slide into the past again with people going back to concentrate on  the best $/frame GPU again.

 

*by new drivers I actually mean getting off their butts and fixing the ones they have rather than let them linger until sales start dropping.

 

Yeah it was very smart of AMD imo. They just don't have the money to try and keep up with Intel. The 8350 performs pretty much like a I7-920 on a OC which is a really awesome chip for rendering and stuff, it just isn't great in some of these games.

 

AMD wins no matter what. It is good to see. The 8320 is like 99 bucks at microcenter? That is going to be one hell of a deal when this optimization comes. 

 

I haven't been able to recommend a AMD cpu in sooooo long for GAMING, and it is sad. You try to be honest with people and tell them the chip will do bad in some games and they call you a fanboy. Then you have people watching Tek Syndicate videos buying an AMD and getting 15 fps in Guild Wars 2, it is just silly. 

 

All of these chips are way too powerful to be bottlenecking these games this badly. AMD made the smart move. We simply don't need more powerful cpu's for years to come. AMD realized it. GPU's have to get much better before we need a big upgrade on CPU power. Very happy for the AMD people.

[totjup5]

I'll believe it when I see it. Microsoft doesn't seem to give any cares about PC gamers.

[mr moose]

I'll believe it when I see it. Microsoft doesn't seem to give any cares about PC gamers.

 

this is fair enough, but people need to remember that MS is a business oriented company first,  all their profit, money and viability is tied to corporate solutions and when the times get tight like they have over the last 4-5years (companies not upgrading from xp and competition from open source office products like google docs), they have had to put more effort into long term strategies that leave us gamers out in the cold. .

[pixeldensity]

I'll believe it when I see it. Microsoft doesn't seem to give any cares about PC gamers.

M$ doesn't probably doesn't give about pc gamers, maybe. But what they do definitively care about is losing their monopoly on their api. 

[deathjester]

Regardless, you still paid more.

 

THAT?! That is what 'caused you to freak out like crazy? OMG!. Now I understand. Dude! you can't mix DirectX with OpenGL. The Windows GUI engine (Aero) of Vista and up is rendered in DirectX. XP isn't. It uses the CPU to draw everything. To maximize system performance, and improve system responsiveness, Microsoft FINALLY, decided "Yup, graphic card with decent power are affordable, lets do a GUI engine, called Aero, that uses the GPU, instead of using the CPU which sucks like crazy at drawing" (sadly, OEMs prefer ripping off consumers with Intel free graphic solution that can't even play, at the time, a DVD perfectly smoothly. But that is a different story). If they picked OpenGL, then it would be the reverse... But why would Microsoft pick OpenGL? Even if you were the person taking that decision, you would pick DirectX.

Dude, don't jump to conclusions. You freak out over nothing.

 

Yea it did! Huge number of times. Every time there is a new version of DirectX, everyone here is excited about how next gen games will look, by looking at the provided tech demo's.

Same when there is OpenGL new version. When Microsoft introduced DirectX, developers went crazy over it (although it had excitement, adaption rate was slow, due that well you had to learn something new and back in the day, you needed deep optimization to get something working, due to the ultra low performance at the time, but also DOS was popular, and DirectX didn't work on DOS or Windows 3.x It needed Windows 95. DOS didn't have the infrastructure for. OpenGL didn't exists back then... well it did, as SIG exclusive API for their graphic card, which are exclusively sold with their custom computers, which cost a fortune.

That is why you have a huge amount of developers using and preferring DirectX. Not it's not to say that OpenGL didn't raise the bar and pushed thing either. It sure did.. but it moves just as fast as a can of tomato in a race, because it was focus on specif 3D software based on clients needs), NOT gaming, and NOT to "push graphics to the next level" if you allow my marketing sounding point. DirectX pushed OpenGL to wake up and get itself in gear. SIG knew it could not complete against DirectX, it was loosing software support, so it made it eventually open.

 

1- It is a good value. PS4 is potentially even a greater value. And so is the WiiU.

2- "historical events" yea ok. Fine call it that, if makes you happy. Wrong choice of word buddy. But, to answer you. Now that I know what you are freaking about, you have miss and/or incomplete information, and basing an opinion on it.

3-So far, not a problem. YOU don't want to use Windows 8. I see a nice number of people on this very forum upgrading to Windows 8. And a lot of people like it, as is. Just check the OS section of the forum. The proof is there. But let's assume you are right. Well then, Linux based OS would be one clustered disaster, with so many Linux based OS, all with their own tweak and modification. Many at the kernel level too. Some programs don't work between distros even.

4- Ah yes! It's the different version of Windows that has 'cause the decline of PC sales... suuuuuuuuure. It created so much confusion that people decided to no longer buy PC's, and run on select one of the billion'th Android distro. [/sarcasm] I think you loss your train of thought buddy, or miss explained yourself.

 

Without DirectX, we would be using the wonderful WinG, which is what DirectX replaced completely. At the time OpenGL did not exist... well ok it did, but it was specific to SGI computers, which I hope you had the money, as they were selling at 8 000$ back in the early 90's. That is about 13 000$ today! OpenGL on other graphics card was not available back then. I THINK (see, I am not sure now), that you saw the first consumer graphic card (gaming graphic card, if you prefer) with full OpenGL support in about 1997-98 if I recall correctly. That is after DirectX was released. Wikipedia, says that OpenGL 1.1 was released in 1997. So yea. No DirectX... most likely no OpenGL. Or much later. Doesn't the fact that Silicon Graphics

It was in 2006, when SGI closed in 2009 that the Khronos Group was formed and OpenGL is what it is. If DirectX was not out, SGI would probably would have keep it for itself, and possibly have OpenGL die with itself.

So as much as you hate DirectX for some reason, it made the gaming world we are in today.

 

New versions of OpenGL came out that did the same thing. The problem? Game devs were told they wouldn't work on Vista. OpenGL just released 4.4. "Everyone freaks out about the new DirectX". That is because our ports are native DirectX. The same effects are in OpenGL. Why aren't people excited about OpenGL 4.4? 

 

Bottom line. If MS cared about gaming and not fragmenting the PC gaming even more then it already is fragmented? They would put the new DirectX on Windows 7. Many, many people refuse to use 8. I could care less whether you like it. That is just the facts and other people have pointed that out in this thread. 

 

At a time where PC gaming is experiencing it's biggest growth, only one company can screw that all up. Microsoft. They are already up to their old tricks they used with Vista, with Windows 8 game exclusives.

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/12/13/microsoft-bringing-a-beloved-franchise-to-windows-8

 

So we are going to have people who refuse to go to 8, devs having to make two ports for OpenGL and DirectX on the same hardware (which is pants on head retarded), MS having exclusive games only for DirectX and Windows 8. Games held back because the majority of people are on Windows 7 so they won't even use the new DirectX in many games, meaning we won't see any of the new effects. 

 

None of this is good and it is all really stupid. They could use OpenGL and be done with this silly crap. It would run on all the OS's and run well. MS is hindering computer gaming growth and gaming in general not helping it. I don't know how any rational person could make the case MS cares about gamers, or they care about furthering PC gaming growth. They have done everything possible to fragment the computer game industry, all so they can sell the newest version of their OS.

[GoodBytes]

By exclusive game, that Halo game on Windows 8 App Store? yay?!

It's a tablet game. Big woop. It's just a small spin off game, the last thing it is a AAA title game.

No they were not told that. People on forum and/or you assume things.

People are excited about new OpenGL version, just as much as DirectX. It's always interesting what the 2 parties comes up with.

As for fragmentation, why if my GeForce FX 5900 not OpenGL 4.4 compatible. What is this? Nvidia and AMD both fragmenting gaming. They are against gaming! [/sarcasm]

Most people don't refuse to use Windows 8. Sales are low not because of that. People don't need desktop computers to check Facebook, e-mail and YouTube. Their phone does all that. If they want a larger screen, you have a bunch of tablets to pick from.

Stop being pissed at the wrong things.

[mr moose]

I seriously don't think MS are actively trying to upset or fragment the gaming industry, that would be like shooting yourself in the foot and MS are not that stupid.  At best they are ignoring the gaming community to focus on bigger fish (maybe even survival with a long term strategy). 

[estebes]

good to see that amd managed to get this train started but im sad that directx is evolving. i was hopping that directx would become obsolete so that triple a devs started developing for linux. the only reason i havent fully switched to linux is games

[lhikary]

looks like Microsoft was already working it

all amd did was to push microsof talk aboutit AND hurry in their programming to make DX less power hungry but still grants same or equal performance or better


AMD you are a good guy
but you did the HARD work and now there is literally ZERO reasons for me to go to AMD
so like always Nvidia is the solid choice with their maxwell 800 series

[greenroost1445]

Someone had to do it and It might as well have been AMD. They've been around and since they've been around to do it I doubt that Mantle will die willingly

[pixeldensity]

Someone had to do it and It might as well have been AMD. They've been around and since they've been around to do it I doubt that Mantle will die willingly

well according to extremetech, amd still seem to have something in plan for mantle and will present it at gdc.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/177407-microsoft-hints-that-directx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle