Here’s why Apples $700 Wheels are NOT Crazy

[molszanski]

4 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

The argument seems to be that if the customer can afford it, then it's not over-priced. 

No.

 

It IS overpriced.

 

Why are they overpriced, it is a real and interesting question. 

 

Talking about cavities is just plain boring and childish. 

[molszanski]

39 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's right there for everyone to see. Editing the quote and pretending half my post doesn't exist doesn't change that fact.

 

Industry standard pricing for professional/industrial castors (for this particular use case) is between A$20 each and A$40 each .  That is the industry standard price for the end consumer be they a small business or large corporate industry.  Therefore arguing it is standard practice to charge $700 for said castors quoting "industry standard" is just made up BS.    This is not an opinion.

 

The only people who will buy these castors are those with vanity issues.  I don't know a single professional (and I have worked with we fucking truck ton of them over the last 30 years) who would look at that price and just suck it up.  I know no one who buy red handles at that price.  In fact I have seen big wigs in the music industry buy behringer gear before paying vanity taxes (and these are people for whom money is not a hurdle).

 

Pointing to the objective reality is not defending. It is observation. You are confusing defence and observation.  

 

It is true, that $700 for castors is not standard. At the same time, SOME accessories have this f-u price tag. It is not a made up BS.

 

It is also true that SOME people with vanity issues buy 1k handles. The real question is: are they the only ones? 

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, molszanski said:

 

Pointing to the objective reality is not defending. It is observation. You are confusing defence and observation.  

 

It is true, that $700 for castors is not standard. At the same time, SOME accessories have this f-u price tag. It is not a made up BS.

 

It is also true that SOME people with vanity issues buy 1k handles. The real question is: are they the only ones? 

 

What are you talking about?

 

When someone tries to pass off $700 wheels as standard when that price is in fact not standard at all,  is by all definitions defending said product.   Even you agree $700 for castors is not standard.  How can you simultaneously state it is not a standard price then defend someone who is claiming it is? 

 

Why do you keep asking what "the real question is"?  there is only one question, are these wheels at justifiable prices?  and the answer is NO, it is no by all metrics and comparable product offerings. 

 

Being able to find a small niche of morons willing to pay the price does not justify the price.   If it were the only product and we had nothing to compare it to then you might be able to make some arguments.  But the reality is we have thousands of existing examples of castors on the market and a known selling price for them.

 

 

[molszanski]

43 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Even you agree $700 for castors is not standard.  How can you simultaneously state it is not a standard price then defend someone who is claiming it is? 

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody claims that $1k for wheels is a standard. The claim is that MANY accessories (including wheels) have this $1k price tag. 

 

51 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Why do you keep asking what "the real question is"? 

Oh. This is just a personal preference.

 

I just find those questions

Quote

 

I think there are much more interesting questions to ponder:

- Why is anyone buying $1K handles? Supply demand price curve and low Q, high P? No alternative?

- Who is buying that stuff? Industries, demographic etc.

- How many handles do those companies sell? Are they profit bringers or they mean literally nothing in the big picture.

- Why competition doesn't work? Handle patents? Small market?

 

much more interesting to think or talk about. 

 

Personally, I find "$700 wheels are overpriced and for morons" trope just plain boring  

[Sauron]

Just now, molszanski said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody claims that $1k for wheels is a standard. The claim is that MANY accessories (including wheels) have this $1k price tag. 

Many objects cost over $10k, including Ferrari wheels. This means these wheels should also cost $10k.

[molszanski]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Many objects cost over $10k, including Ferrari wheels. This means these wheels should also cost $10k.

And dildos cost $100. This means that the sun is flat

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, molszanski said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody claims that $1k for wheels is a standard. The claim is that MANY accessories (including wheels) have this $1k price tag. 

 

There is no misunderstanding, the person I quoted literally claimed it was a standard practice to charge that much for this product. 

10 hours ago, molszanski said:

Oh. This is just a personal preference.

 

I just find those questions

much more interesting to think or talk about. 

 

Personally, I find "$700 wheels are overpriced and for morons" trope just plain boring  

I suggest you find a new forum,  if the comments are boring go read a book.

 

 

 

 

[molszanski]

Quote

the person I quoted literally claimed it was a standard practice to charge that much for this product. 

 

Quote

It’s standard for more expensive equipment to have more expensive accessories and add ons that are excessively expensive. If you’re complaining about £400 or £700 wheels on a professional grade product then you should be shouting at the whole industry. Red, Apple, Nvidia, AMD, Sony, Fuji etc etc. They all overcharge for stuff on the high end of their product line

I just don't understand how you can translate those lines into "standard practice to charge that much for this product".

 

But it is ok. We are in a written form, a lot is lost in translation. 

 

Quote

I suggest you find a new forum,  if the comments are boring go read a book.

Will just stay away from the boring ones

 

[mr moose]

12 minutes ago, molszanski said:

 

I just don't understand how you can translate those lines into "standard practice to charge that much for this product".

Are you here to argue with me or to discuss the topic?  Is it important to you to keep digging into posts until you get what you want?  I said what I said, it is perfectly clear, there is no need to go trying to muddy the conversation.

 

 

12 minutes ago, molszanski said:

But it is ok. We are in a written form, a lot is lost in translation. 

It seems a lot is lost on you that's for sure.

12 minutes ago, molszanski said:

Will just stay away from the boring ones

 

Will you stay away from boring topics or will you stop calling peoples comments boring?

[molszanski]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Will you stay away from boring topics or will you stop calling peoples comments boring?

both

[Lord Vile]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:57 PM, mr moose said:

There is no difference between professional and industrial, you made that difference up in your head.  You can buy one xeon for your home server or you can buy 100K for your data centre, it's exactly the same product.

 

 

You are defending it, you are doing your damnedest to try and normalize a moronic price.   Now you are even trying to compare them to exotic cars.  Hell if you can't see the obvious issue with that then there is no hope for this discussion.

 

 

There is a difference that I literally outlined. Professional use is low volume sales maybe max of about 5, industrial is into the hundreds or thousands of units per sale. Well a top end Xeon for personal use is a bit dumb it’d be better value just to rent a server, the prosumer variant would be the HEDT platform which for some reason everything linked to the HEDT platform magically gets more expensive. I mean an 8 core x series chip performs about the same as a 9900K or worse in a lot of cases but costs more. Hmmm could it be that you’re moving into professional grade stuff? 
 

It’s the professional grade market it’s all like that! You really call “they’re stupid” and “no one should buy them” as defending? if you want to move your Mac Pro around more times that would justify not just carrying it then you should get the rack version and throw it in a rack.
 

The point is the more you buy for a product the more expensive EVERYTHING related to it will be because that’s how the market works. Again take Red, they’re 480GB mags cost north of a grand. For a £50-100 SSD. Noting special, write speeds aren’t even that good, a PCIE based SSD would be faster. 

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

There is a difference that I literally outlined. Professional use is low volume sales maybe max of about 5, industrial is into the hundreds or thousands of units per sale.

We are not talking about a unique item here that only sells to small numbers, we are talking about wheels.

9 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Well a top end Xeon for personal use is a bit dumb it’d be better value just to rent a server, the prosumer variant would be the HEDT platform which for some reason everything linked to the HEDT platform magically gets more expensive. I mean an 8 core x series chip performs about the same as a 9900K or worse in a lot of cases but costs more. Hmmm could it be that you’re moving into professional grade stuff? 
 

I don't care if you think it's dumb,  the fact is the xeon isn't extraordinarily priced just because some professionals use it.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

It’s the professional grade market it’s all like that! You really call “they’re stupid” and “no one should buy them” as defending? if you want to move your Mac Pro around more times that would justify not just carrying it then you should get the rack version and throw it in a rack.
 

 

Mate I've been dealing with the professional market for decades,  you are missing the point, so completely it is not even funny.   Professional wheels do not cost that much PERIOD. it doesn't matter if its for a MAC, hospital surgery equipment, dialysis machine, welders, Hi tech measurement gear at CERN or even a tea trolley.  Your argument is flawed because it plays no bearing on the standard cost of wheels in any industry.

9 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

The point is the more you buy for a product the more expensive EVERYTHING related to it will be because that’s how the market works. Again take Red, they’re 480GB mags cost north of a grand. For a £50-100 SSD. Noting special, write speeds aren’t even that good, a PCIE based SSD would be faster. 

 

If I took an rx570, put a special interface on it so it only worked in machines I sold, then tried to charge $10K for it, would you still be arguing the price is valid because only a small number of people will buy them? Of course not.  That is exactly what apple has done, they have taken a $30 article, made it so only their brand works then jacked the price by 6-7 times.  That has nothing to do with the number of consumers or professional demand.  FFS it's not even a professional product, it's a fancy set of castors.  When you can already get a product that will out perform what they sell for 1/10th the price you cannot argue demand cause the price.  It simply does not work, it isn't true, it's a fallacy you have created to defend apples pricing of this.

[Lord Vile]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

We are not talking about a unique item here that only sells to small numbers, we are talking about wheels.

I don't care if you think it's dumb,  the fact is the xeon isn't extraordinarily priced just because some professionals use it.

 

 

Mate I've been dealing with the professional market for decades,  you are missing the point, so completely it is not even funny.   Professional wheels do not cost that much PERIOD. it doesn't matter if its for a MAC, hospital surgery equipment, dialysis machine, welders, Hi tech measurement gear at CERN or even a tea trolley.  Your argument is flawed because it plays no bearing on the standard cost of wheels in any industry.

 

If I took an rx570, put a special interface on it so it only worked in machines I sold, then tried to charge $10K for it, would you still be arguing the price is valid because only a small number of people will buy them? Of course not.  That is exactly what apple has done, they have taken a $30 article, made it so only their brand works then jacked the price by 6-7 times.  That has nothing to do with the number of consumers or professional demand.  FFS it's not even a professional product, it's a fancy set of castors.  When you can already get a product that will out perform what they sell for 1/10th the price you cannot argue demand cause the price.  It simply does not work, it isn't true, it's a fallacy you have created to defend apples pricing of this.

How many Mac Pro’s do you think Apple will sell? What percentage of those will be bought with wheels? They are an extremely low volume sale. 
 

Xeons are stupidly priced because people need them or do you really think a Xeon costs 100x more to make than a 9900K? You’re taking around double the price of a desktop chip for the same cores on a lower frequency. Sure you get more PCIE lanes but at that point you’re up against Threadripper. The Xeons worth getting for more than HEDT cost tens of thousands. 

You do realise you just listed a bunch of industry equipment right... 

 

Doesn’t really matter what cost of something in general is... this is what you’re not getting so I’ll take it slow.  People wanty product for lots of money. You follow? Company knows people wanty product so company get bunch of accessories and sells them at BIG margin to take advantage of dumb dumbs who think £1000 is good deal for piece of plastic. Profit margin THIS WIDE 🖐             🖐. Company no can do this to industry partners cos they have number people called ac-count-ants who never fall for overpriced plastic and will just take pot of gold to competitor. Oh well. 
 

Company's aren’t dumb they know how much something costs to make and they know just how much piss they can take with the price to make it profitable. The wheels are dumb, any wheels on a Mac Pro are dumb but Apple will have done the market research and priced them accordingly for the idiots who will actually buy them. If Apple priced a 570 at a stupid price they’d still make a profit because they’d have done the research on how many people would buy it before they even deceived to manufacture it. 

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

How many Mac Pro’s do you think Apple will sell? What percentage of those will be bought with wheels? They are an extremely low volume sale. 
 

Don;t care and it doesn't matter.

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Xeons are stupidly priced because people need them or do you really think a Xeon costs 100x more to make than a 9900K? You’re taking around double the price of a desktop chip for the same cores on a lower frequency. Sure you get more PCIE lanes but at that point you’re up against Threadripper. The Xeons worth getting for more than HEDT cost tens of thousands. 

It seems you have missed the point that Intel didn't create the demand for their product by making it unique.

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

 

You do realise you just listed a bunch of industry equipment right... 

Exactly.  Industry equipment that all has wheels under it that cost 1/10th what the apple wheels cost.  So your argument that it is professional/ mean exactly squat.

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Doesn’t really matter what cost of something in general is... this is what you’re not getting so I’ll take it slow.  People wanty product for lots of money. You follow? Company knows people wanty product so company get bunch of accessories and sells them at BIG margin to take advantage of dumb dumbs who think £1000 is good deal for piece of plastic. Profit margin THIS WIDE 🖐             🖐. Company no can do this to industry partners cos they have number people called ac-count-ants who never fall for overpriced plastic and will just take pot of gold to competitor. Oh well. 
 

Company's aren’t dumb they know how much something costs to make and they know just how much piss they can take with the price to make it profitable. The wheels are dumb, any wheels on a Mac Pro are dumb but Apple will have done the market research and priced them accordingly for the idiots who will actually buy them. If Apple priced a 570 at a stupid price they’d still make a profit because they’d have done the research on how many people would buy it before they even deceived to manufacture it. 

It actually does matter what the industry standards are.  It makes a huge difference.  If I can go to just about any shop, custom designer, fabricator or supplier and get suitable high quality wheels for $30 each,  then anyone trying to sell for $700 is taking the piss.  They are not justified in their price by any stretch of the imagination. No matter how much you wish to pretend it is otherwise.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

Just to put this in perspective,  castors are made by literally 100's of different manufacturers, produced and sold in their 100's of millions every year. They are sold en masse world wide for everything,  there is just no way that a wheel is in any way, shape or form unique to and end use that only one maker can supply it.     It is just completely illogical to try and argue any rational justification for this price other than greed and cashing in on vane people.

[Lord Vile]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Don;t care and it doesn't matter.

It seems you have missed the point that Intel didn't create the demand for their product by making it unique.

Exactly.  Industry equipment that all has wheels under it that cost 1/10th what the apple wheels cost.  So your argument that it is professional/ mean exactly squat.

It actually does matter what the industry standards are.  It makes a huge difference.  If I can go to just about any shop, custom designer, fabricator or supplier and get suitable high quality wheels for $30 each,  then anyone trying to sell for $700 is taking the piss.  They are not justified in their price by any stretch of the imagination. No matter how much you wish to pretend it is otherwise.

 

 

 

 

So you don’t care about supply and demand? 
 

Kinda did, I mean if you make something you’re literally making the demand for it. 
 

My argument is that professional add ons cost more than industrial ones... 

 

Doesn’t matter at all they’re different markets. Again professional accessory’s cost more and if you don’t understand that you’re just dumb. Apple sells the wheels because enough people are dumb enough to buy them and make them a viable sell. Just because I recognise that doesn’t mean I’m rationalising the price, Company’s charge over £100K for a dashboard clock in a car, camera company’s charge extortionate amounts for accessories and lenses. But the company’s offer it because idiots will buy it. 

[Lord Vile]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Just to put this in perspective,  castors are made by literally 100's of different manufacturers, produced and sold in their 100's of millions every year. They are sold en masse world wide for everything,  there is just no way that a wheel is in any way, shape or form unique to and end use that only one maker can supply it.     It is just completely illogical to try and argue any rational justification for this price other than greed and cashing in on vane people.

Oh no it’s not like capitalism is defined by greed and  cashing in on dumb (not vain) people isn’t standard. Again anything you buy as an accessory costs pennies to make but can end up in the hundreds. How much do you really thing the BOM cost is for a Red camera handle or a Xeon Phi CPU? Is it $1000 for in the Xeons case well over 30K?

[mr moose]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

So you don’t care about supply and demand? 
 

Kinda did, I mean if you make something you’re literally making the demand for it. 
 

Not when it isn't relevant.  wheels are wheels, apple making them doesn't create a market, there is already a market with plenty of options. 

Just now, Lord Vile said:

My argument is that professional add ons cost more than industrial ones... 

 

These "professional add-ons" cost more than 6 times every other professional wheel on the market,  just calling them a professional addon does not justify the price.

Just now, Lord Vile said:

Doesn’t matter at all they’re different markets. Again professional accessory’s cost more and if you don’t understand that you’re just dumb.

You are laboring under the delusion that these wheels are some how more professional than every other wheel that already exists.  They are not, they bring absolutely nothing new to the table so their price is not justified above any other offering.

Just now, Lord Vile said:

 

Apple sells the wheels because enough people are dumb enough to buy them and make them a viable sell. Just because I recognise that doesn’t mean I’m rationalising the price, Company’s charge over £100K for a dashboard clock in a car, camera company’s charge extortionate amounts for accessories and lenses. But the company’s offer it because idiots will buy it. 

And yet here you are trying to argue that the price is standard when it clearly is not, here you are arguing that professional gear costs more, when that statement does not apply to this product.  This product does not exist in a vacuum, it is not a unique product you cannot get from anywhere else. It's value is artificial because people are dumb and vane.

 

 

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Oh no it’s not like capitalism is defined by greed and  cashing in on dumb (not vain) people isn’t standard. Again anything you buy as an accessory costs pennies to make but can end up in the hundreds. How much do you really thing the BOM cost is for a Red camera handle or a Xeon Phi CPU? Is it $1000 for in the Xeons case well over 30K?

 

You really lack experience with this sort of stuff don't you?  The only time professional gear demands a higher price is when it provides an actual higher spec or quality.  RED handles do not offer anything that warrants the price, at that price they are clearly only for vane people,  MAC wheels do not offer anything above other wheels on the market therefore at their price they're only for the vane.  Crown and QSC amps offer longevity and rugged build quality, they can handle being thrown in the back of a truck every night for years without failing, they cost an arm and a leg each.  Behringer amps sound exactly the same, but will die after several weeks of the same abuse, they are cheap as chips.  That is how professional gear earns the price tag,  these wheels have earnt nothing, they do nothing out of the ordinary, they provide nothing other than to satisfy the stupidly vane desires of some morons.

 

 

[Lord Vile]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Not when it isn't relevant.  wheels are wheels, apple making them doesn't create a market, there is already a market with plenty of options. 

 

These "professional add-ons" cost more than 6 times every other professional wheel on the market,  just calling them a professional addon does not justify the price.

You are laboring under the delusion that these wheels are some how more professional than every other wheel that already exists.  They are not, they bring absolutely nothing new to the table so their price is not justified above any other offering.

And yet here you are trying to argue that the price is standard when it clearly is not, here you are arguing that professional gear costs more, when that statement does not apply to this product.  This product does not exist in a vacuum, it is not a unique product you cannot get from anywhere else. It's value is artificial because people are dumb and vane.

 

 

With all those options being a warranty get out clause for your expensive computer for wheels you shouldn’t even be getting in the first place! Grade A investment tip there.

 

Not justifying just saying why, you just seem to be mad at Apple for doing it and ignoring literally every other company on the planet.

 

I don’t think they’re more professional, I’ve never said they are. They’re an accessory FOR a professional grade. 
 

 

Neither does a Xeon...

[Lord Vile]

Just now, mr moose said:

 

You really lack experience with this sort of stuff don't you?  The only time professional gear demands a higher price is when it provides an actual higher spec or quality.  RED handles do not offer anything that warrants the price, at that price they are clearly only for vane people,  MAC wheels do not offer anything above other wheels on the market therefore at their price they're only for the vane.  Crown and QSC amps offer longevity and rugged build quality, they can handle being thrown in the back of a truck every night for years without failing, they cost an arm and a leg each.  Behringer amps sound exactly the same, but will die after several weeks of the same abuse, they are cheap as chips.  That is how professional gear earns the price tag,  these wheels have earnt nothing, they do nothing out of the ordinary, they provide nothing other than to satisfy the stupidly vane desires of some morons.

 

 

“Oh I bought a 3rd party handle and dropped my camera, oh well I guess that’s 100K down the toilet”.

 

Or you just buy a hard case, I’ve set up and packed away enough equipment to know you don’t just yeet an amp into a van. And in this case you’re not talking about the Amp, the amp would be the Mac Pro, the wheels would be more the power lead or the hard case or another ACCESSORY. 

[mr moose]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

With all those options being a warranty get out clause for your expensive computer for wheels you shouldn’t even be getting in the first place! Grade A investment tip there.

Apple being cunts with warranty does not change the market value of wheels.  

Just now, Lord Vile said:

Not justifying just saying why, you just seem to be mad at Apple for doing it and ignoring literally every other company on the planet.

You don't read my posts do you?

Just now, Lord Vile said:

I don’t think they’re more professional, I’ve never said they are. They’re an accessory FOR a professional grade. 
 

You keep calling it a professional accessory, I see know you understand the flaw in your position and want to change what you said.

Just now, Lord Vile said:

 

Neither does a Xeon...

neither does a porsche or falcon or celeron or blue crested tit or anything if you want to throw random words out there.

 

A product has to have an intrinsic value over another product in order to have a higher price tag.  There is nothing of value in this product that justifies its price over any of the other products on the market.

 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

“Oh I bought a 3rd party handle and dropped my camera, oh well I guess that’s 100K down the toilet”.

 

Or you just buy a hard case, I’ve set up and packed away enough equipment to know you don’t just yeet an amp into a van. And in this case you’re not talking about the Amp, the amp would be the Mac Pro, the wheels would be more the power lead or the hard case or another ACCESSORY. 

Again proving you don't get it.  Buying a handle of equal quality does not increase your chances of dropping the camera.  If you do that it's because you are all thumbs.  Your excuses are getting ridiculous now.

 

 

[mr moose]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Again proving you don't get it.  Buying a handle of equal quality does not increase your chances of dropping the camera.  If you do that it's because you are all thumbs.  Your excuses are getting ridiculous now.

 

 

Just to reiterate a point that some people don't seem to be understanding,  you can get a solid aluminum handle (professional) for the RED camera for A$105.  That uses a NATO rail and full fasteners.  There is no way that is a cheap handle with a higher failure rate than the original equipment.   When you have a price variance of that much then the RED version is a vane purchase.  There is no justification for the handle to cost that much,  and dropping your camera is not an argument.  I might crash my car, I'd better pay 7 times more for chrome plated door handles.

[Curious Pineapple]

"Customers also bought"

 

A £949 monitor stand, a £189 VESA adaptor and £299 feet. I don't know about anyone else, but my monitors have always been usable out the box without being forced to buy more accessories just so I don't need to use tape to keep it upright. My cases have also been supplied with at least shitty plastic feet to keep it off the floor.

 

Looking at them wheels, you've got a £15 Ford Fiesta non-ABS front wheel bearing, a piece of milled 15mm steel rod stock welded to the outer race and smoothed and 2 inserts with over-moulded rubber on them. The bearings and rod are easy and cheap to do, could even weld the rod to a sleeve that has the bearing pressed into it to prevent damage to the outer race by welding. That way you can go up-market and use an aluminium or stainless rod and sleeve. Overmoulding *can* be done in a basic workshop using a pillar drill or a press to force liquid TPE or a rubber into the overmould jig. If you need the swivel then a flat thrust bearing can be added to the top of the support, still cheap as chips.

 

If an engineer can hand make a single set for less, then it's frigging over-priced. Also when they use the same number in different currencies (£699/$699), you know they're taking so much piss, the unfortunate buyer will need a transfusion. $699 is £555, is there really any way to defend that? They would cost £678 to buy from the US and pay import taxes on, still cheaper than the £699 they charge here. Not sure how taxes work in the US and if exports are exempt from taxation at the point of sale so it could end up less still.

 

But yeh, reasonably priced and not at all a joke because the customers have the money, so why not.