Audio recording at a distance, have the cake and eat it too?

[For Science!]

So I've only started very briefly educating myself about types of microphones and their characteristics, so please be gentle.

I am going to put forward a scenario that is very far from "an ideal situation" in terms of audio quality, but for the more well-versed, what would you do if these were the restrictions imposed:

 

1. Wanting to record audio while at the same time, not have the microphone in the video shot (i.e. microphone cannot be close to the mouth)

2. Too lazy, unable to use a lavalier microphone

3. Potential typing and clicky noises from the talent

 

Because of not being able to eat the microphone, I think maybe a condenser or a shotgun microphone may be desirable in this circumstance. I wonder in terms of noise rejection perhaps shotgun microphone may be more desirable over the condenser microphone at a distance since that may pick up more noise?

 

- Shotgun microphone at a distance

- Condenser microphone at a distance

- Dynamic microphone at a distance

[BobVonBob]

Generally the gold standard for recording at a longer distance is a shotgun mic. Overhead mounting would be a bad idea in this case, since you want to avoid clicking and typing noises, which would be coming from the same direction as the mouth of the speaker if sitting at a desk in that position. Not to mention overhead mounting is a massive pain. My suggestion would be a shotgun mic either attached to or just pointed in the same direction as the camera. That will give excellent sound quality while also reducing the pickup of the keyboard and mouse.

[For Science!]

2 minutes ago, BobVonBob said:

 

If using a lav was an option, would this be preferable (in your opinion) over the shotgun? Since I understand most lav's are omnidirectional, would the keyboard/mice clack be too big of a concern and so you would still opt for a shotgun?

[berberries]

Shotgun mics are the best at pickup up directional audio, but booming overhead in your case will definitely pick up your keyboard clacks. I'd say the safest way is to point the shotgun directly at you from below, this will be less likely to pick up keyboard noises, but may still show up in the shot. so the best option I can think of for you will be to put it up where the webcam goes.

[BobVonBob]

2 minutes ago, For Science! said:

If using a lav was an option, would this be preferable (in your opinion) over the shotgun? Since I understand most lav's are omnidirectional, would the keyboard/mice clack be too big of a concern and so you would still opt for a shotgun?

Honestly I'd go with a shotgun mic any day. With a high quality shotgun mic you'll get pretty comparable sound quality to a good lav without the hassle of needing to use a lav.

[The Flying Sloth]

A shotgun mic will certainly pick up keyboard noises and a lav may ignore most of them, honestly it sounds as though you want a headset mic (not the gaming headset kind, the stage microphone kind) as they will have a much better chance of ignoring keyboard noise than an omni lav or shotgun mic. If we weren't in lockdown I'd suggest getting one of each and trying it out in the scenario you want to see which is best and returning the surplus two. 

 

Sloth

[dalekphalm]

20 hours ago, The Flying Sloth said:

A shotgun mic will certainly pick up keyboard noises and a lav may ignore most of them, honestly it sounds as though you want a headset mic (not the gaming headset kind, the stage microphone kind) as they will have a much better chance of ignoring keyboard noise than an omni lav or shotgun mic. If we weren't in lockdown I'd suggest getting one of each and trying it out in the scenario you want to see which is best and returning the surplus two. 

 

Sloth

I'd second a stage headset mic - many of them are skin-coloured and very slim, and they aren't that noticeable.

 

Take the Countryman E6, for example:

https://countryman.com/product/e6-earset/

 

@For Science! is there any particular reason why the mic can't be in the shot?

[For Science!]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:33 PM, dalekphalm said:

 

 

@For Science! is there any particular reason why the mic can't be in the shot?

It's all hypothetical, but lets say aesthetics.

If I were to add a little bit more, although it's going to sound stupid.

 

"To look and sound professional during a teleconference session, but not look like you've put too much effort into making it look and sound good".

So anything that suggests "this is not using a laptop microphone" (apart from the quality) is non-desirable.

[jasonvp]

On 4/27/2020 at 11:33 AM, For Science! said:

Because of not being able to eat the microphone, I think maybe a condenser or a shotgun microphone may be desirable in this circumstance. I wonder in terms of noise rejection perhaps shotgun microphone may be more desirable over the condenser microphone at a distance since that may pick up more noise?

It's a common mistake to believe that a microphone's type (eg: condenser vs dynamic) will have a direct affect on what it can and can't pick up.  There are some small amounts of truth to that, but generally, it has more do with the mic's polar (pickup) pattern.  I think a perfect demonstration is the fun that both Jayz2cents and Linus went through with their home streaming setups.  Jay used a dynamic, and Linus a condenser.  In fact, the mic Linus used is one of the best studio condensers available today: the Rode Broadcaster.

 

What folks believe is something along the lines of: "Dynamics are good for noisy environments because they reject indirect sound better.  Condensers are better for quiet studio settings."

 

That's not really true.  The Broadcaster, for instance, is an end-address mic with a tight polar pattern, and that's what matters.  I can snap my fingers underneath the Broadcaster while I'm using it, and it barely picks that up.  If at all.  And remember: that's a condenser mic.

 

Also, for the sake of being pedantic: shotguns are either condensers or dynamics (usually the former).  I think what you meant, instead, was a desktop cardiod mic versus a shotgun.

 

Ultimately your self-imposed restrictions are going to make this very difficult.  Shotguns are perfect off-cam mics, but position is going to have a YOOGE impact on what it picks up and doesn't.  Behind your display and aimed at your forehead might work since the keyboard will be a good bit off-axis (if that's what you're worried about).

 

[dalekphalm]

On 5/4/2020 at 7:41 AM, For Science! said:

It's all hypothetical, but lets say aesthetics.

If I were to add a little bit more, although it's going to sound stupid.

 

"To look and sound professional during a teleconference session, but not look like you've put too much effort into making it look and sound good".

So anything that suggests "this is not using a laptop microphone" (apart from the quality) is non-desirable.

Fair enough - I would say, who cares about that, because that's dumb.

 

But if, say, because of management, they forbid you from showing a mic in-frame, the best thing to do would be to use a Boom or a stand (articulating arm, for example), to bring the mic as close as possible to the speaker while being just outside of the frame.

 

In terms of mic type, as said below by @jasonvp, if it's a single person talking, you want a directional mic with a tight polar pattern that will only pick up sound from a specific direction, and then you do your best to get that mic as close as possible, while also minimizing or eliminating any potential sounds within that pickup zone. 

On 5/4/2020 at 10:25 AM, jasonvp said:

It's a common mistake to believe that a microphone's type (eg: condenser vs dynamic) will have a direct affect on what it can and can't pick up.  There are some small amounts of truth to that, but generally, it has more do with the mic's polar (pickup) pattern.  I think a perfect demonstration is the fun that both Jayz2cents and Linus went through with their home streaming setups.  Jay used a dynamic, and Linus a condenser.  In fact, the mic Linus used is one of the best studio condensers available today: the Rode Broadcaster.

 

What folks believe is something along the lines of: "Dynamics are good for noisy environments because they reject indirect sound better.  Condensers are better for quiet studio settings."

 

That's not really true.  The Broadcaster, for instance, is an end-address mic with a tight polar pattern, and that's what matters.  I can snap my fingers underneath the Broadcaster while I'm using it, and it barely picks that up.  If at all.  And remember: that's a condenser mic.

 

Also, for the sake of being pedantic: shotguns are either condensers or dynamics (usually the former).  I think what you meant, instead, was a desktop cardiod mic versus a shotgun.

 

Ultimately your self-imposed restrictions are going to make this very difficult.  Shotguns are perfect off-cam mics, but position is going to have a YOOGE impact on what it picks up and doesn't.  Behind your display and aimed at your forehead might work since the keyboard will be a good bit off-axis (if that's what you're worried about).

 

Excellent points here - the pattern that the mic picks up is by far the most important factor. There are mics with multiple patterns - such as the Blue Snowball and Blue Yeti - I imagine there are some XLR ones too.

[For Science!]

7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Fair enough - I would say, who cares about that, because that's dumb.

So after doing one big circle, do you have any recommendations for shot gun microphones (which I use in the sense of a dynamic microphone with a tight cardioid polar pattern).

[The Flying Sloth]

On 5/5/2020 at 12:25 AM, jasonvp said:

In fact, the mic Linus used is one of the best studio condensers available today: the Rode Broadcaster.

Yeah, no, very no.
Not even close to being a high end or studio grade microphone, has no bottom end and is crazy bright, the brightness might be excusable if it had the mid warmth of a traditional edge-terminated microphone but it just doesn't. For that price a 3U Audio Warbler or any Advanced Audio mic is a much better option.

You are correct that polar pattern matters, that is why I recommend the Behringer C2 so often, supercardioid pencil mic that won't get in the way but it is still far more sensitive than any of my dynamic mics, especially on-axis. 

@For Science! If you don't want background noise you'll want to be looking at a stage headset mic or lav mic, used correctly either can be almost invisible and they will ignore far more background noise than any shotgun mic I've ever used.

Sloth

[jasonvp]

10 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

Not even close to being a high end or studio grade microphone, has no bottom end and is crazy bright, the brightness might be excusable if it had the mid warmth of a traditional edge-terminated microphone but it just doesn't. For that price a 3U Audio Warbler or any Advanced Audio mic is a much better option.

This is a "Ford vs Chevy", "Coke vs Pepsi", or "Mac vs PC" thing.  You clearly don't like Rode.  I disagree with you, and yes, they are "high end".  They're not "thousands of dollars" high end, but high end enough for this discussion.  Their low end is perfectly acceptable if you know what you're doing.

 

And you know what you're doing, right?

[The Flying Sloth]

38 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

This is a "Ford vs Chevy", "Coke vs Pepsi", or "Mac vs PC" thing.  You clearly don't like Rode. 

Yeah, no, again, I love some Rode mics, the NT1 and NT2 certainly aren't bad for the money and the Classic is one of my all-time favourite microphones, the Broadcaster just isn't one of them, it comes much closer to the NT1-A in terms of crazy brightness that makes it unusable on most sources (works pretty good on dark acoustic guitars I will admit) without copious EQ. Most producers I've spoken to consider Rode a solid low-mid range brand, better than some mass exported mics out of the Feilo and Shuaiyin factories (SOME, Feilo have some really nice mics like the SE tube models) but nowhere near industry standards and workhorse brands like AA, 3U, Peluso, Gefell or Neumann.

Besides, you didn't say it was a 'high-end' microphone anyway, you said "one of the best studio condensers available today" about a microphone that sees no use in studios. Microphones in a similar price range that actually see studio use are far more 'high end' than the broadcaster (like the Warbler and CM414). As for me knowing what I'm doing, that's certainly up for debate and I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert in the studio but I've spent more than enough time there as an artist, session player, producer and engineer that I've picked up a thing or two, like the fact that microphones that see no studio use whatsoever probably aren't "one of the best studio condensers available".

Sloth