Sennheiser HD 600 vs HD 650's

[TheDigitalRealm]

Okay, so there is a legitimate reason for this question. I'm upgrading from HD 595's and already know that whichever I go for, I'll notice the difference. I'm curious as to which ones to get for two reasons:

1. There's a strangely small price difference between them (£40 difference on amazon, £20 difference on a Hi-Fi eshop) 
2. Apparently, the HD 650's do scale better with a better source, but with lower quality sources, sound muddy and the bass a little over--stated. The HD 600's tend to stay fairly neutral and scale less with the quality of the source. I'm using a Xonar D2X, but am looking to upgrade to an external solution (FiiO E17+E09K+A1 OR Xonar Essence One)

[ShearMe]

Apparently, the HD 650's do scale better with a better source, but with lower quality sources, sound muddy and the bass a little over--stated. 

 

I've never experienced that.

 

 

I'm using a Xonar D2X, but am looking to upgrade to an external solution (FiiO E17+E09K+A1 OR Xonar Essence One)

 

[TheDigitalRealm]

I've never experienced that.

 

 

 

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Is there something wrong with the essence one? Linus uses it for his HD 600's? I've read around on the Head-FI forums and it seems to have a decent reputation there. I can't find another all-in-one DAC+AMP solution that will power headphones AND a pair of speakers that comes in at or around £300.

[MayflowerElectronics]

Is there something wrong with the essence one? Linus uses it for his HD 600's? I've read around on the Head-FI forums and it seems to have a decent reputation there. I can't find another all-in-one DAC+AMP solution that will power headphones AND a pair of speakers that comes in at or around £300.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. There's PLENTY of options. Also speakers don't benefit from headphone amps/dac's. Just plug them into your onboard.

[ShearMe]

Is there something wrong with the essence one? Linus uses it for his HD 600's? I've read around on the Head-FI forums and it seems to have a decent reputation there. I can't find another all-in-one DAC+AMP solution that will power headphones AND a pair of speakers that comes in at or around £300.

 

The Essence One does NOT power speakers. Maybe if it did it would be a reasonable product, but it doesn't, so it's not.

[TheDigitalRealm]

The Essence One does NOT power speakers. Maybe if it did it would be a reasonable product, but it doesn't, so it's not.

My bad, this is all based on things I've read on Head-Fi. 

 

Then you aren't looking hard enough. There's PLENTY of options. Also speakers don't benefit from headphone amps/dac's. Just plug them into your onboard.

Okay, so now it comes down to the FiiO E17+E09K AMP solution, or an O2+ODAC. Unless I'm missing something else which is extraordinarily good value for money?

[ShearMe]

Okay, so now it comes down to the FiiO E17+E09K AMP solution, or an O2+ODAC. Unless I'm missing something else which is extraordinarily good value for money?

 

I wouldn't waste money on the FiiO solution - it's not as well built as other products you could get for the price. Since you're a Head-Fi lover, shouldn't you also be looking at a Schiit Stack?

[SirReallySam]

My bad, this is all based on things I've read on Head-Fi. 

 

Okay, so now it comes down to the FiiO E17+E09K AMP solution, or an O2+ODAC. Unless I'm missing something else which is extraordinarily good value for money?

I've heard good things about the Fiio E10.... But that's CHEAP in comparison... probably not what you are looking for

[TheDigitalRealm]

I wouldn't waste money on the FiiO solution - it's not as well built as other products you could get for the price. Since you're a Head-Fi lover, shouldn't you also be looking at a Schiit Stack?

Not as well built? That's weird, because that's something many people have complemented FiiO on. Also, the FiiO solution is £200. I'm by no means a Head-Fi lover, I was just pointed in that direction by a friend. 

[TheDigitalRealm]

I've heard good things about the Fiio E10.... But that's CHEAP in comparison... probably not what you are looking for

I'd be needing an AMP to go with the FiiO E10, so it's not really what I'm looking for. Thanks for the input though.

[SirReallySam]

I'd be needing an AMP to go with the FiiO E10, so it's not really what I'm looking for. Thanks for the input though.

I thought it was a DAC + amp but your welcome

[ShearMe]

Not as well built? That's weird, because that's something many people have complemented FiiO on. Also, the FiiO solution is £200. I'm by no means a Head-Fi lover, I was just pointed in that direction by a friend. 

 

FiiO's lower end products are indeed well built for the price, but their higher end items don't improve upon that build quality. For 200GBP, you could easily find a better setup.

 

If you want the E17 just because it's portable, then get it, but you don't need the E9k to drive an HD 600 or 650.

 

I'd be needing an AMP to go with the FiiO E10, so it's not really what I'm looking for. Thanks for the input though.

 

 

The E10 has an amp in it.

[TheDigitalRealm]

FiiO's lower end products are indeed well built for the price, but their higher end items don't improve upon that build quality. For 200GBP, you could easily find a better setup.

 

If you want the E17 just because it's portable, then get it, but you don't need the E9k to drive an HD 600 or 650.

 

 

 

The E10 has an amp in it.

1. The E17 is rated to drive 150 Ohm headphones. The 600's and 650's are 300 Ohm. Does this not matter? I'm a newbie in the audio realm so any help would be awesome. 

2. My bad, I assumed the the E10's AMP was only 150 Ohm rated as well. 

 

Could you suggest a better AMP+DAC set up. I looked at Schiit's website. to play my audio files @ 192KHz/24bit it was looking pretty damn expensive.

[TheDigitalRealm]

1. The E17 is rated to drive 150 Ohm headphones. The 600's and 650's are 300 Ohm. Does this not matter? I'm a newbie in the audio realm so any help would be awesome. 

2. My bad, I assumed the the E10's AMP was only 150 Ohm rated as well. 

 

Could you suggest a better AMP+DAC set up. I looked at Schiit's website. to play my audio files @ 192KHz/24bit it was looking pretty damn expensive.

Also, is there a noticeable difference when dropping down to 96KHz/24bit?

[Lauen]

1. The E17 is rated to drive 150 Ohm headphones. The 600's and 650's are 300 Ohm. Does this not matter? I'm a newbie in the audio realm so any help would be awesome. 

2. My bad, I assumed the the E10's AMP was only 150 Ohm rated as well. 

 

Could you suggest a better AMP+DAC set up. I looked at Schiit's website. to play my audio files @ 192KHz/24bit it was looking pretty damn expensive.

As far as I've heard, they can both drive 300 ohm headphones nicely. And there is not an audible difference when going over 44.1K and 16 bit, at least not for me. 

 

EDIT: and I just had to point it out- if you don't have an amp, you won't hear anything. unless something is just a dac, it has an amp, they just vary in power

Edited February 20, 2014 by Lauen

[ShearMe]

1. The E17 is rated to drive 150 Ohm headphones. The 600's and 650's are 300 Ohm. Does this not matter? I'm a newbie in the audio realm so any help would be awesome. 

2. My bad, I assumed the the E10's AMP was only 150 Ohm rated as well. 

 

Could you suggest a better AMP+DAC set up. I looked at Schiit's website. to play my audio files @ 192KHz/24bit it was looking pretty damn expensive.

 

Also, is there a noticeable difference when dropping down to 96KHz/24bit?

 

The impedance ratings and drive-ability listed in specs is rather meaningless when you want to get really technical. Resistance decreases the amount of power an amplifier can supply to the headphones, BUT the sensitivity of the headphones determines how loud they can get per mw of power. I could go into the math if you want, but headphone specs are usually too devoid of detailed information to make use of any formulas.

 

Despite being rated for 250 ohms, the Beyerdynamic DT 990 does not get as loud as the "300 ohm " Sennheisers. This is because the Sennheisers are more sensitive, and in my personal experience they do not require special amplification. I used to own DT 990's as well, and my FiiO E10 could drive even them loud enough, so it'd be a good enough choice for the Sennheisers. I usually use my E10 with them because with a long USB cable it is more convenient if I want to adjust volume while laying in bed, but it is still "made in china" so to speak. The Schiit Magni & Modi are Head-Fi's popular "$200" option for a DAC/Amp combo.

 

I highly doubt you have very much media above 48KHz/16bit, so I wouldn't worry about that spec. Even if you did, there's no real benefits of a higher sampling rate during playback, and only minor improvements in the noise floor from higher bit-depths. 

[TheDigitalRealm]

The impedance ratings and drive-ability listed in specs is rather meaningless when you want to get really technical. Resistance decreases the amount of power an amplifier can supply to the headphones, BUT the sensitivity of the headphones determines how loud they can get per mw of power. I could go into the math if you want, but headphone specs are usually too devoid of detailed information to make use of any formulas.

 

Despite being rated for 250 ohms, the Beyerdynamic DT 990 does not get as loud as the "300 ohm " Sennheisers. This is because the Sennheisers are more sensitive, and in my personal experience they do not require special amplification. I used to own DT 990's as well, and my FiiO E10 could drive even them loud enough, so it'd be a good enough choice for the Sennheisers. I usually use my E10 with them because with a long USB cable it is more convenient if I want to adjust volume while laying in bed, but it is still "made in china" so to speak. The Schiit Magni & Modi are Head-Fi's popular "$200" option for a DAC/Amp combo.

 

I highly doubt you have very much media above 48KHz/16bit, so I wouldn't worry about that spec. Even if you did, there's no real benefits of a higher sampling rate during playback, and only minor improvements in the noise floor from higher bit-depths. 

So you personally use 650's with a FiiO E10. Would you recommend the FiiO as an upgrade from my D2X or would I be looking at spending my original £200 budget for an improvement over a £100 sound card? I was looking at the O2+ODAC solution, but availability seems limited in the U.K, so when it is available, the price seems pretty high (£250)

[Lauen]

So you personally use 650's with a FiiO E10. Would you recommend the FiiO as an upgrade from my D2X or would I be looking at spending my original £200 budget for an improvement over a £100 sound card? I was looking at the O2+ODAC solution, but availability seems limited in the U.K, so when it is available, the price seems pretty high (£250)

I don't think an o2 would bring THAT much of a noticeable improvement worth the price tag, unless you have like super sensitive ears. the only problem with the D2X is the high output impedance, which might screw up bass in lower impedance headphones (under 80 ohm)

[TheDigitalRealm]

I don't think an o2 would bring THAT much of a noticeable improvement worth the price tag, unless you have like super sensitive ears. the only problem with the D2X is the high output impedance, which might screw up bass in lower impedance headphones (under 80 ohm)

Well the spec list for the 650's has them at 300 Ohms, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. You're right about that though, my 595's are 50 Ohm's I believe, and I noticed that there was a noticeable improvement in the low end and bass when plugged into our living room's Hi-Fi system.

[ShearMe]

So you personally use 650's with a FiiO E10. Would you recommend the FiiO as an upgrade from my D2X or would I be looking at spending my original £200 budget for an improvement over a £100 sound card? I was looking at the O2+ODAC solution, but availability seems limited in the U.K, so when it is available, the price seems pretty high (£250)

 

I don't think you'll hear any difference between the soundcard and a good external DAC/amp with the 600/650. Maybe a lower noise floor and less EMI. Personally, between my Gene V motherboard, FiiO E10, O2, and $700 DAC and tube amp stack, the only difference I hear is a tad more bass with the tube amp. We're talking, like single-digit dB more JUST in the bass.

 

Really, with an external solution, the only major benefits are an analog volume knob and the minimization of EMI. There's also the cool feeling of having nice hardware, but that has nothing to do with audio quality.

[BennisTheMennis]

I hate to thread jack but do you guys notice a sound quality difference between the 600 and 650 being that there is such a small price difference?

[ShearMe]

I hate to thread jack but do you guys notice a sound quality difference between the 600 and 650 being that there is such a small price difference?

 

Supposedly they use the same drivers, and the only real differences are in manufacturing tolerances as well as some of the mesh in the enclosure which has a minor effect on the overall sound. Compared to other headphones, they should sound relatively the same.

[TheDigitalRealm]

I don't think you'll hear any difference between the soundcard and a good external DAC/amp with the 600/650. Maybe a lower noise floor and less EMI. Personally, between my Gene V motherboard, FiiO E10, O2, and $700 DAC and tube amp stack, the only difference I hear is a tad more bass with the tube amp. We're talking, like single-digit dB more JUST in the bass.

 

Really, with an external solution, the only major benefits are an analog volume knob and the minimization of EMI. There's also the cool feeling of having nice hardware, but that has nothing to do with audio quality.

Okay, thanks. After I watched Tek Syndicates video on getting rid of your sound card, they made it sound as if the difference is huge. That's part of the reason I investigated an external solution.

[ShearMe]

Okay, thanks. After I watched Tek Syndicates video on getting rid of your sound card, they made it sound as if the difference is huge. That's part of the reason I investigated an external solution.

 

Lol, that video was supposed to be about choosing better alternatives to a soundcard, not throwing a soundcard away and spending more money. Logan gets carried away sometimes...

[TheDigitalRealm]

Lol, that video was supposed to be about choosing better alternatives to a soundcard, not throwing a soundcard away and spending more money. Logan gets carried away sometimes...

Oh, right. So...a tad sensationalist? Really then, a decent sound card isn't necessarily a BAD solution, but that with an external solution, your eliminating any problems that COULD occur using an internal solution (less interference etc..) is that more or less it?