Sound card suggestions needed

[creatip123]

Hello,

 

I'm wondering if anyone can help suggest a nice setup for gaming.

 

Some background:

 

- I'm not a 'hardcore' gamer, just occasional gamer, playing mostly FPS, like left 4 dead 2

- I'm not looking to spend hundreds of dollars worth of equipment. In fact, I'm looking for a setup that's cheap but sounds quite nice (considering the price, of course), or in other words, 'best bang for bucks'

- I'm looking for a sound card with a good 3D positional audio, one that enables me to pinpoint something just by the sound

 

Currently I'm using Xonar DG, with headset (not speakers). The sound is quite nice (for the price), but I'm looking for something better, if possible. 

 

I've tried using the dolby headphone feature of the Xonar DG, but too reverby for me, it doesn't sound quite real in FPS. I also tried using Razer surround, sounds a bit better, but not much.

 

Now surfing through forums like this, some says that CMSS-3D is the best 3D positional audio feature of a sound card in the market right now. So, is it worth it that I buy a new creative sound card to replace my xonar? 

 

Like I said, I'm not looking to spend $100+ for a sound card. I'm looking for something in the xonar DG price range (maybe $30-$40). Are the creative sound cards in that price range already have CMSS-3D?

 

A side note: back in the days, I've used an aureal vortex 2 sound card. The A3D was awesome, and to be honest, I have yet found other sound cards that sound as good as A3D, in terms of positional audio. Not EAX, and certainly not dolby headphone. 

 

Thank you in advance.

[asickduckie]

@creatip123 either improve your audio listening device (seems like you're using headphones) by buying a better pair, or get an external dac. Sound cards don't have a good price to performance ratio at all. You'd probably be fine if you're just using your onboard audio otherwise as long as your motherboard is 1 or 2 years old because those years, the onboard audio solution finally became quite decent (a lot less static and all that). Positional audio is mostly up to the game and software. You can change the realtek onboard audio to quadraphonic and surround settings or something and then use the surround settings on your game and it should sound just as good as the xonar soundcard. 

 

Then use that money you saved by using your old soundcard or onboard audio towards buying new better headphones. Sound cards and dacs can only do so much

[Ivyk]

The best sound card is NONE(On board). There are tons of videos explaining why it is just a rip-off.

You're welcome

[Unlocker9000]

Creative makes a gaming series of sound cards called "Recon3D", that should do an ok job at making virtual surround sound, might be worth taking a look at. I couldn't find US pricing, but it should be under a 100$.

 

Edit: Creative's 3D tecnology is called "SBX Pro Studio Surround".

[ShearMe]

Get headphones with a wide soundstage first to see how much they improve positional audio for you. I'll recommend the audio-technica ATH-AD500X as the best cost/performance.

There really is a minimal difference between sources in comparison to the differences between headphones.

[Paralectic]

Just use your onboard sound, as @Ivyk stated.

It's not worth going for a dedicated sound card if your motherboard is anywhere near normal.

[creatip123]

@all, thank you for your responses.

 

My PC is currently 2 years old, and I have been using onboard realtek ALC887 until recently. About a week ago, the onboard audio suddenly died. Surfed the net, trying to find a fix, but came to conclusion that it's plain dead, and nothing I could do about it. That's when I bought the xonar DG.

 

Ok, I've never thought of the possibility of using a good headset to improve the positional audio. I mean I know better headset = better music quality, but haven't thought of better positional audio experience. 

 

So I should go for better headset then?

[ShearMe]

Ok, I've never thought of the possibility of using a good headset to improve the positional audio. I mean I know better headset = better music quality, but haven't thought of better positional audio experience. 

 

So I should go for better headset then?

 

Better headphones, yes. Do you absolutely need an integrated mic?

[creatip123]

Better headphones, yes. Do you absolutely need an integrated mic?

 

Well, short answer is no, I don't really need an integrated mic. Integrated mic for me is for convenience purpose only, compared to separate dedicated multimedia mics (only 1 hardware that is the headset, and take up a little less space).

 

So, from what I can sum up so far, it's better investing in better headphone/headset than better sound card then.

 

Thank you all for your suggestions. 

 

PS: I am a bit intrigued by these words though:

 

 

Get headphones with a wide soundstage first...

 

What is 'wide soundstage', and how do I look for those headphones? I mean, is it a feature that they write in the box or something?

[ShearMe]

What is 'wide soundstage', and how do I look for those headphones? I mean, is it a feature that they write in the box or something?

Soundstage refers to the separation between instruments, or in gaming, the positionality of the sounds around you. In real life, your ears take sound in stereo, and to determine where tge noise is coming from your brain interprets the delay between sound entering the closer ear and sound entering the furthest ear. So, a good stereo headphone without any reverb or echo effects produced from the enclosure, combined with a good stereo source, and your brain will do all the hard work of guessing the direction of a noise. The exception is complete front/back directionality, because real life rear noises curve around your lobes before you hear them. That's where virtual surround comes in, but most games have the required effects for front/back built in without all the other bulk in most virtual surround effects.

Unfortunetely, good soundstage in a headphone is just knowledge you have to accumulate from experience and reading reviews. Open headphones typically have a wider soundstage than closed headphones, but not every closed headphone has a weak soundstage. The ATH-AD500, 700, 900, and the 'X' revisions are open, but also have angled drivers and a down-played bass response. All that combined gives them the widest soundstage I've ever heard in a headphone.

[creatip123]

Soundstage refers to the separation between instruments, or in gaming, the positionality of the sounds around you. In real life, your ears take sound in stereo, and to determine where tge noise is coming from your brain interprets the delay between sound entering the closer ear and sound entering the furthest ear. So, a good stereo headphone without any reverb or echo effects produced from the enclosure, combined with a good stereo source, and your brain will do all the hard work of guessing the direction of a noise. The exception is complete front/back directionality, because real life rear noises curve around your lobes before you hear them. That's where virtual surround comes in, but most games have the required effects for front/back built in without all the other bulk in most virtual surround effects.

Unfortunetely, good soundstage in a headphone is just knowledge you have to accumulate from experience and reading reviews. Open headphones typically have a wider soundstage than closed headphones, but not every closed headphone has a weak soundstage. The ATH-AD500, 700, 900, and the 'X' revisions are open, but also have angled drivers and a down-played bass response. All that combined gives them the widest soundstage I've ever heard in a headphone.

 

I'm not sure I completely understand all of that, but I get your point though. Better headphone = better everything, be it in musics or gaming.

 

Also, thank you for the audio technica references. They're a bit out of my budget currently (my budget is about $30-$40), but I'll keep them in mind. Maybe someday I'll get them when I have the chance.

[TheProfosist]

Creative z or zx might be options.

[ShearMe]

I'm not sure I completely understand all of that, but I get your point though. Better headphone = better everything, be it in musics or gaming.

 

Also, thank you for the audio technica references. They're a bit out of my budget currently (my budget is about $30-$40), but I'll keep them in mind. Maybe someday I'll get them when I have the chance.

There's goo headphones at that price point if you really want to upgrade right this moment, but if not, saving up for something is always fun.

[creatip123]

There's goo headphones at that price point if you really want to upgrade right this moment, but if not, saving up for something is always fun.

 

Went to electronic store to browse for something that fit my budget. They got some types of some brands open for testing. Too bad, it was in the mall (noisy, lots of people), and the testing booth have no stools, and the guy working there was standing beside me the whole time, so I couldn't really 'get into' the testing. I ended up buying ATH-TAD300 (around $40, converted from my currency). It was a close call between that, and senheiser hd202. 

 

I tested with my ipad, playing FLAC file of MLTR (yeah, I'm old-skool, lol). I think the Senheiser had a litlle more 'thump' to the bass, and crispier (almost hurting) treble, whilst the TAD300 is more balanced, IMO. 

 

Got back to my PC, and tested it again, I played a techno music FLAC file with foobar2000. First using my cheapo headset. Then plugged in the tad300, and woah....the difference, the clarity. It was almost like all this time I was hearing something from behind a closed window, and suddenly the window was opened....

 

I am in no mean an audiophile, so I can't say much about the characteristic of the sound, other than it's different from what I've been hearing all this time. 

 

Fired up a game (left 4 dead 2) to test the positional audio. Far better, more details of small sounds.

 

1 interesting note though, in the store I tested 2 audio technica headphone, the TAD300 (which I ended up buying), and the XS5. The TAD300 sounded a lot better (again IMO) than the more expensive XS5. There was also ATH RE70 that is more expensive than the TAD300, but cheaper than the XS5. The store guy told me straight away that the RE70 is no match for the TAD300. It shows that 'you get what you pay' is not always true, even in the same line of products of the same brand....

[creatip123]

On completely different note, I've been reading the audio sub-forum in this site, and understand that the common conception is 'no headsets can compete with headphones', or more blatantly, 'headsets are craps, headphones are the way to go'. I'm not in the qualified skill and knowledge to agree or oppose this conception, but this just got me thinking, isn't the difference between headsets and headphones are only in the integrated mic (meaning it's possible that headsets can be as good as nice headphones. They just have to add an integrated mic to a nice headphone)?

 

I thought of this when I'm googling and browsing audio technica's line of products, and they got the 'hi fidelity gaming headset' line (http://www.audio-technica.com/cgi-bin/product_search/headphones/headphones_cat.pl?select_multiple_3=Gaming%20Headsets). Granted that it's not likely to fulfill a hardcore audiophile's standard of quality, but I think it has a quite satisfying sound quality to some extent.

 

My assumption is that maybe because in the past, gaming community was not a very lucrative market, so high-end headphone brands wasn't interested in making high quality headsets. So the headset brands and qualities in the market are mediocre at best. But in the last 10 years or so, everybody would agree that the gaming community is expanding like crazy and becoming a very lucrative market, that good brands can't afford not to dip their feet in the gaming world.

 

I mean, if 15 years ago I say that I have the idea of making a good performance mouse, label it 'gaming mouse', and sell it for over $100 (or whatever the price before inflations), people would call me stupid or crazy, but nowadays?

 

I'm in no mean of starting a controversy, I'm just saying out loud what I'm thinking after reading the whole 'headset vs headphone' issues....

[Nizkus]

snip

Most headsets are made by gaming companies that do not poses knowledge of making decent headphones, so while there are good headsets from audio companies like sennheiser and beyerdynamic, they charge quite outrageous premium for having a mic integrated in their already existing headphones.

[creatip123]

Most headsets are made by gaming companies that do not poses knowledge of making decent headphones, so while there are good headsets from audio companies like sennheiser and beyerdynamic, they charge quite outrageous premium for having a mic integrated in their already existing headphones.

 

Make sense.

 

But the PC 360, which is praised a lot as the best gaming headset from senheiser, is around $300+, and audio technica's hi-fi headset series is around $200+. Not very much more expensive than say razer's or steelseries'. Well, the price gap is quite something for me, but don't think so for hardcore gamers

[Nizkus]

Make sense.

But the PC 360, which is praised a lot as the best gaming headset from senheiser, is around $300+, and audio technica's hi-fi headset series is around $200+. Not very much more expensive than say razer's or steelseries'. Well, the price gap is quite something for me, but don't think so for hardcore gamers

I ment you pay premium compared to their headphone which it is based on, like HD 558 compared to PC 360. While at same time there is degrade in build quality.

That is why you should usually buy headphones and a dedicated mic, instead of a headset.

[ShearMe]

The T series from audio-technica is great - glad you're enjoying them!

 

On the subject of headsets, it all comes down to money. To integrate a microphone into a headphone increases the cost of assembly and the RMA rate, which the manufacturer has to pass along to the consumer. Add to that the fact that gaming brands OEM out nearly everything they develop, and you just don't get your money's worth compared to separate headphones and mics.

 

Now, headsets from Sennheiser, audio-technica, and Beyerdynamic are good, but they're all based on previously existing headphones. The PC 360 is just an HD 558, the ATH-ADG1 is just an ATH-AD700X, and the MMX 300 is just a 32 ohm DT 770. So, remembering that it's all about money, all I ask people is that they subtract the price of one of these headsets from the price of their headphone predecessors. What's left is what you'll be paying simply to have an integrated mic. Usually that's over $50, which, frankly, would be a stupid decision. Lately the PC 360's have been a $30-40ish premium over the 558 (in the US only, as far as I've seen), which is why it's the one headset we occasionally recommend.

[creatip123]

I ment you pay premium compared to their headphone which it is based on, like HD 558 compared to PC 360. While at same time there is degrade in build quality. That is why you should usually buy headphones and a dedicated mic, instead of a headset.

 

Ahhhh that's what you mean. If you put it that way, then yes, I'd have to say I agree.

 

Perhaps they work out the pricing based on percentage. Like, no mic = 100%, add an integrated mic, let's crank it up to 175% price (something like that). So the more expensive the base product is, the more difference in pricing the microphone counterpart is.

 

Or perhaps they just look at gaming headset brands and thought, 'if they could sell that craps for $100+, let's sell ours  $150 more than their price'..... joking of course, lol....

[creatip123]

The T series from audio-technica is great - glad you're enjoying them!

 

On the subject of headsets, it all comes down to money. To integrate a microphone into a headphone increases the cost of assembly and the RMA rate, which the manufacturer has to pass along to the consumer. Add to that the fact that gaming brands OEM out nearly everything they develop, and you just don't get your money's worth compared to separate headphones and mics.

 

Now, headsets from Sennheiser, audio-technica, and Beyerdynamic are good, but they're all based on previously existing headphones. The PC 360 is just an HD 558, the ATH-ADG1 is just an ATH-AD700X, and the MMX 300 is just a 32 ohm DT 770. So, remembering that it's all about money, all I ask people is that they subtract the price of one of these headsets from the price of their headphone predecessors. What's left is what you'll be paying simply to have an integrated mic. Usually that's over $50, which, frankly, would be a stupid decision. Lately the PC 360's have been a $30-40ish premium over the 558 (in the US only, as far as I've seen), which is why it's the one headset we occasionally recommend.

 

Yeah, you saved me from burning some moolah on sound cards, and it got me this terrific piece of ear-hugger instead, so thank you....

 

Been using it to play games for 4-5 hours straight now. Funny, now that I take a break, my ears feel kinda deaf, like right after you heard a loud thunder. But I didn't feel anything negative all the time playing for those 4-5 hours. Usually if the volume is too loud, my ears hurt almost right away while playing

[ShearMe]

Yeah, you saved me from burning some moolah on sound cards, and it got me this terrific piece of ear-hugger instead, so thank you....

 

Been using it to play games for 4-5 hours straight now. Funny, now that I take a break, my ears feel kinda deaf, like right after you heard a loud thunder. But I didn't feel anything negative all the time playing for those 4-5 hours. Usually if the volume is too loud, my ears hurt almost right away while playing