Windows 8 sold over 200 million licenses.

[Advent]

Gpu drivers.

 

Gaming.

Care to be specific? I haven't had any issues at all. Ever. With anything on Windows 8.1 minus the MOD utility for my Crucial RAM. Turns out that was a Crucial issue, not a Windows 8.1 issue. I'm running DOS games, 95/98 era games, games that only really ran well on XP, all of my steam games, and I had a HD5450 in my machine before I got the 780 ti and didn't have any issues. My 780 Ti works just fine.

 

 

There's a tremendous difference between bugs, performance issues, lack of drivers, things that you couldn't foresee and things that are intentionally obnoxious and annoying by design. It's like the difference between a fun yet tragically buggy game with show stopping issues and the newest Dungeon Keeper on android: one might not work due to incompetence, the other is designed to annoy the living fuck out of you.

 

So you are trying to tell me that Microsoft purposely released Windows 8 just to annoy you and others personally? I highly doubt that. This isn't some great conspiracy to "annoy people who don't like change and are unwilling to press a few keys to fix a problem". It is a problem with being lazy though.

 

 

 

There isn't one thing Windows does that I can't do in Mac OS or Linux besides games.  Windows took Launchpad and made the thing fullscreen, then made programs fullscreen. It is the dumbest @#%^ I have ever seen on a desktop. It makes sense on a mobile platform. I could care less if you can put it in the background. It shouldn't be in the background anyways. The last thing I need is more bloat, and a tweaked 7 has less bloat. Again "tech savvy" people hate it for a reason.

A feature you don't like doesn't indicate bloat. Windows 8/8.1 has a smaller footprint and uses less resources than Windows 7. You can disable all kinds of things that you personally might not want, including Metro.

 

 

 

Again. To hell with Microsoft. They can't even make a secure OS, or a decent antivirus. The least they can do when charging you 100 bucks for an OEM is give you an antivirus worth a damn, instead of telling you... you should just buy another one, which leads to even more bloat.

Here we go with the old security fallacy. Microsoft appears less secure because it has a higher market share, thus it is attacked way more often. And of course MS AV isn't as good, they are not an AV manufacturer they make OS's.

 

 

The only reason we run Windows at all instead of free OS's or a better OS, is MS screwing us over and making sure the OS get's exclusives, just like they do with their dumb console. 

Yes, it is a conspiracy. LOL. I'll stop responding to you now. I've used DOS since 6.2.2, Mac since they were running 3.4.4 on the SE and Linux since really early Red Hat and SUSE. I don't pimp Microsoft Products. I use them because they work for what I do, which is many things. OSX is good for multimedia design and web surfing and work processing. Linux is good for server based things, general use and that is about it. Windows is good for everything as a platform.

[Rassilon]

Bout as hard to grasp as 50 posts, most of them selling or defending MS.

...

Everyone thank MS. They are wonderful. Almost care about us as much as Comcast.

Dude, I'm not defending MS. I'm saying I like windows 8 once I fixed it. that's why this started. 

[deathjester]

Care to be specific? I haven't had any issues at all. Ever. With anything on Windows 8.1 minus the MOD utility for my Crucial RAM. Turns out that was a Crucial issue, not a Windows 8.1 issue. I'm running DOS games, 95/98 era games, games that only really ran well on XP, all of my steam games, and I had a HD5450 in my machine before I got the 780 ti and didn't have any issues. My 780 Ti works just fine.

 

 

 

So you are trying to tell me that Microsoft purposely released Windows 8 just to annoy you and others personally? I highly doubt that. This isn't some great conspiracy to "annoy people who don't like change and are unwilling to press a few keys to fix a problem". It is a problem with being lazy though.

 

Just be glad this board doesn't show all posts by users and most of them left the thread.

 

Windows released Win 8 "this way" for a few reasons and all of them were not good for anyone except MS and they did it for a few reasons. 1) to make people who did like it, have a hard time using anything but their dumb tiles. 2) by doing this they could keep DirectX alive. I hope you are ready for Halo on the PC, because I bet it is coming for Win 8 and up. They need SOMETHING to keep the racket going.

 

 

http://kotaku.com/5936535/windows-8-is-not-good-for-gamers

 

 "Yes, existing programs like Steam and Origin run perfectly well in the Desktop environment. But the way they will have to publish and develop their games, going forward, may change dramatically. The "Games" feature built into the OS is, in every way that matters, a tablet-friendly version of XBox Live.P

In an ideal world, Microsoft's unified UI experience could theoretically entice more developers to make PC versions of their games when they make Xbox versions. (And in that same ideal world, they'd all be good versions, not bad ports.) But in the real world, the "walled garden" that Notch and Newell were afraid of places the same demands on a PC developer that it places on an Xbox one, and those are often a problem. The certification process for games to get on the Xbox Marketplace does not always run smoothly.

Microsoft now stands to become more of a gatekeeper for getting software on their computers than they ever have been before. Nothing will be stopping Valve, EA, Ubisoft, or any other publisher huge or indie from distributing Windows games online or on disc exactly as they have been for years. But it's easy to imagine the process going awry."

 

PC gamers should get down on their knees and kiss Gabe Newell's ass and also thank the partners in Steam OS. MS? To hell with MS. 

 

[TheProfosist]

If w7 was still offered as a choice at retail I'm positive the story would be drastically different. Forcing users by obsolescence is a great way to make a product sell. Does that mean those people are mostly satisfied with windows 8.x? No. Because they aren't.

Look at what HP is doing, offering windrows 7 on their online store. Smart move HP, at least you listen to your customers.

If HP would also offer W7 at retail in sure they would sell like hot cakes.

Its still available at retail. Microsoft just stopped supplying it to retailers. You can also still get the OEM version for another year. youll be able to get it for quite some time after that still as well until all retailers and OEMs run out a keys.

HP is offering it on a ver small number of computer many are older ones form what I can tell so my guess is their trying to sell old stock off under the guise that it has win7 not win8 and people will buy it just for that reason because of the public image of win8.

[Snickerzz]

Meh, still waiting a bit more until all the drivers are 100% compatible with 8/8.1What drivers are you using that are not compatible?

and no performance loss and maybe a decent amount of performance gain would be nice. A SSD coupled with 8/8.1 has given me a HUGE performance boost. My system boots in 3 seconds and shuts down in 4-5. My games load in under 10 seconds. Care to clarify what "performance loss" you are getting?

what were your boot times with win7? o,o

[TheProfosist]

I'm sorry I didn't realize you owned a tablet. Oh...you mean easier for a PC? Yeah well I guess that's kind of the point, it should be easy even if it's butt-ugly, inconvenient and generally annoying and stupid looking.

But hey people like modern art and morbidly obese women and self mutilation and so on, who am I to judge your taste (excluding this bit of sarcasm of course)

I really dont get why you care about the looks so much, I personally hated Aero styling but I woouldnt mind if a bit of transparency came back to the desktop.

WAT

Seriously it looks like this, even if you can painstakingly correct the color scheme and replace all the stupid icons you still get a bunch of squares. I'm sorry but I just loathe the metro UI ever since I first saw it on windows phones and the 360

And what the Icons on your desktop arnt technically squares? I swear your trying to troll at this point as you care way too much how it looks from my perspective.

So then I'm not the one doing it wrong, Microsoft is since they coded it to look that way and be used that way

[/discussion]

And guess what it can be used that way perfectly fine with a keyboard and mouse. use the start screen just like you start menu.

No, I shouldn't have to get anything to get a usable system. It's a matter of principle, not convenience.

Its perfectly usable without that once you know figure out your way around it a bit a learn a few new thing, which I know is oh so horrible to do.

I actually like the Windows 8 experience on an ultrabook, when it has a touch screen. It's been really well designed for that purpose. I just can't stand it on a desktop, because navigating it is kind of clunky with a mouse.

Cam I ask whats so clunky about it as i seem to be using it fine with a mouse and keyboard.

[bramturismo]

I'd pick 8 over 7 pretty much any day of the week.

 

Same here. Windows 8 is fantastic.

 

There are only two things that are annoying me. Which is 1) the most un-userfriendly Skype ever created, and 2) the low-memory warning bug which keeps throwing me out of WoW. And yes, I'm sure that is a bug because the game is only using 1Gb of ram, and my system has 8. 

[TheProfosist]

When I upgraded to Win 8.1 from Win 8 and got my boot to the desktop back I became a happy geek. The problem is the obsession with "convergence". Covergence is fine for the underlying OS code to ease interoperabilitIy between different devices but not the UI. Touch screens and mouse/keyboard are different user enviroments. Win 8.1 boots faster than Win 7 and I have had no compatibility or stability problems. I've learned to get by without to start menu especially by learning short cuts like Winkey+X to bring up the power menu and Winkey+E to bring up Windows Explorer.Overall I prefer Win 8.1 to Win 7. Win 8-try it you might like it.

Nice dude had to like your post. win8 has forced me to learn more shorcuts and use the jump lists among other things. This had actually made me quicker when doing things. Many of these thing were actually introduced in win7 but werent utilized because the start menus was still there and people just kept on using it since its been basically the same since win95.

Where have I heard that fallacy before....

People will always use Windows. It isn't going away any time soon. Nor will Linus take over. I've used Linux for a very long time. People have been saying it is going to take over since it's been around. The problem with Linux is that it has a vastly smaller market share vs Windows and OSX. So vast is the gulf that it might as well not even be taken into consideration when discussing OS platforms other than the fact that Linux has its uses, as does all the other platforms.

I agree with as that may be the fact for pc gamers that solely use their PC for gaming but big whoop since pc gamers are only a small fraction of the pc market. The main reason I dont switch is because windows has the desktop the most correct right now especially compared to linux. Also the majority of the stuff I use is windows only.

Windows didn't get that user base on OS merits, it got it by undercutting other OSes making deals with hardware manufacturers to have it preloaded on all systems. It's the same as the debacle with Internet Explorer: if anybody used that piece of shit at all it was because it was preloaded on windows. As soon as people learned about alternatives it got lost in the shuffle and it's now laughing stock.

The same is true about the entire OS, it's just that it's a hell of a lot more difficult to build an entire OS and have enough money to basically force your way into the market making deals with hardware manufacturers.

Things are quickly changing though, Microsoft didn't move to mobile platforms fast enough and now both Apple and Google have much stronger footing on those markets, as more people being to ditch computers and laptops for smartphones and tablets, Windows becomes more and more irrelevant. It's only hope would be business users and enthusiast and guess what? Both have been waiting for alternatives for years, decades even. Your average consumer that just got whatever came with his computer? Yeah those will continue to use android and iOS since it comes with their tablet.

IE 6 and 7 were what people were stuck on XP that is the issue not IE as a While. IE11 is actually quite good and I use it regularly as my secondary browser.

Windows well never become irrelevant anytime soon. You can see that just from the mostly unwarranted backlash with win8 and the fact that people still after 12 years dont want to switch away from XP. Do businesses really want to switch away from windows for the client PCs? If so what do they want so much more?

I can't believe that it is the SAME PEOPLE on every message board selling Windows 8 and Direct X and spreading fallacies either. Why don't you click on a few people in this thread, who always seem to be pumping up windows 8 and have a look through their post history. 

 

EA and MS used machinima and payments to pump up their products. You are completely naive if you think MS doesn't, and if we can't spot these people from a mile away.

 

There are a few people in this thread who are LAUGHABLE at the extent they will go to sell MS. 

 

 

 

^ I would respond, but someone else already did and made this post look insane.

Would just like to point out that I genuinely like win8 especially 8.1 over 7. i think it all depends on how you use it. If you use it how microsoft advertises it as the start screen then youll probably hate it but in my opinion thats not how you use it on a desktop or even a laptop. I swear I need to put out a video and cover how I use windows 8 as a some what power user. Just because someone is going again popular beliefs doesnt mean their being paid to do it. If you check out any of my stuff like that I would say that it has all good sound reasoning that fairly in depth. All of my decisions are my own based on my own personal experience and research.

[TheProfosist]

Yet Valve will not charge for the OS, will likely open up a lot of the development for anybody to code as most things will be open source. In fact Valve would be perfectly ok with someone coding an opengl game that will easily be ported to either Linux or Windows, they even said they would embrace EA coding Origin for linux for example.

So instead locking you inside Direct X that doesn't works anywhere else, Valve tells you "Code on OpenGL that works both here and on windows anyway". If that is the same in your mind you clearly misunderstood Valve and what they are trying to do.

this is because just like android they will be making money off of whats happening in the OS so they dont have to bank on making money of the OS itself

Its likly because with openGL they can sell the game on windows, OSX, Linux, and SteamOS. The more places they can sell games the more money they can make.

You are right there is no difference with a few exceptions. OPENGL (I like how you call it an "equivalent" and don't even name the API) also supports multiple chipsets and can support Mantle with extensions.

 

Big difference? OpenGL has been shown to be slightly faster, and Steam Os is FREE.

 

If you had Win 7, and then were forced to go 8 for direct x, and then buy 9 because 8 sucked...

 

That is 300 freakin dollars for the CHEAPEST versions. That is a GTX 770. 300 bucks for an API to play freakin games, along with notepad, a calculator, and some crappy multimedia software you could have on Linux for nothing. Meanwhile you could have used linux, or Mac OS during that time and paid like 0-50 bucks.

 

Again. OpenGL is faster in WINDOWS then DirectX. There is no reason for DirectX to exist anymore. 

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows

 

I would much rather have all OpenGL ports on ALL platforms with mantle like extensions for Nvidia/ATI then Direct X, mantle, OpenGL. They have to port most games to OpenGL for Mac/PS4 anyways. 

 

Everyone would have better performance, all cpu's would perform well and you are doing less work coding for 1 API with two extensions.

 

I have now seen "fanboy, haters" in this thread used as arguments. Make me laugh more. If you think game devs want Steam OS/Steam machines to fail, when they make a metric @#%^ ton of money off digital sales compared to getting nothing for used games/rentals on a consoles? You are wrong. They wanted to kill used games on next gen consoles, but couldn't due to outrage.

 

Add to that? Steam Machines will cut down on piracy a bit. One API, less piracy, more profit. The only thing standing in the way is Microsoft. MS hurts gaming, they don't improve it. You have to add 100 dollars to every system build to play a game, which is just stupid.

please note that OpenCL and OpenGL are fairly low level API's so their going to far harder and more time consuming to program in than DirectX or even Mantle.

No ones "locked" inside DX, developers aren't forced to code for it And I am not forced to have it installed, if I want to play games on windows then I have to use it, Just like in all likelihood if I want to game on linux I'll have to use steam.  Open or closed source is moot here, One is a company that makes money from the os the other is a company that makes money from the games,  either way we pay.

 

 

 

I never said dx was better than opengl, I don't even now why that needs to be said,  At the end of the day steam os will serve a purpose., windows will serve a purpose, dx will serve a purpose and if you think any one of those doesn't need to exist, then it is purely result of a conflict of personal opinion and not a rational appraisal of market technology.

Thank you!

DX will serve a purpose? How. With OpenGL being a faster backend, why would you run DirectX? Why would the game devs bother to port the game to DirectX? Why would an indie game company do Directx when they could sell the game on all other systems/os's that are running OpenGL that include, mobile, mac, nintendo, PS4 AND Windows?

 

Sorry. DirectX should be dead as a game API. As long as MS doesn't bribe some key devs? It will be. Even then? We will see how long the bribes last.

because DirectX isnt just directX anymore its been merged into Direct3D and huge parts of windows 7 and now even win8's desktop runs on Direct3D. you know when you watch a video in windows guess whats likely rendering the video and in some cases the audio?

you see this is what I am talking about, this is just your opinion and not a reflection of reality,  your angry about it because you hate it, why that is only you will know, but to say it is irrelevant without actually considering that other people have differing needs and opinions is naive.

 

I need windows for work, I also don't want to have to check the games system requirements for compatibility with my hardware like we used to , thus DX serves its intended purpose.  I am not going to buy or run a completely separate computer just to play games if I can do it on my work computer.

 

Just like these other guys, they like windows 8, it works for them, why is that hard to accept.  they find it quicker and easier. It doesn't mean they are part of some conspiracy theory to sell you windows when you want linux. It just means they are happy with the product because for them it works. I had issues the first time I used it and I still have concerns when I use it, but it would be stupid of me to write it off just because of my opinion.

you have a great point with the work vs game PC I dont want two when my system can easily handle both sometime at the same time.

No, you're hiding under the banner of being level headed and open minded to basically avoid the subject: Direct X is an inferior product that is designed to force people to stay in windows. You have given no reasons as to why is not technologically inferior, you haven't even addressed the biggest issue of them all: an API that is tied to an exclusive operative system it's designed to force people to stay within that operative system.

Microsoft has proven this openly by hijacking new features to newer operative systems, basically forcing people to update their OS (and henceforth spend their hard-earned money) not because of their hardware isn't capable, or even because the new OS is necessary for a new feature, but just because "fuck you, time to pay for the new OS to keep using newer features"

This are not "opinions" this are real things out in the open you can verify for yourself. This are things that Microsoft does transparently to block any competition. This is as transparent as Apple locking down iOS and OSX, as trasparent as the xbox buying the rights to get exclusive titles to get you to buy their console, nobody is even attempting to hide this. It's not just his opinion, or mine, this are things that happen, facts.

Stop trying to change the subject to "whatever that's like, your opinion man" and discuss why do you think an inferior implementation that is limited to 1 OS should exist. Do so talking about why you think Direct X might technically be superior and drop the fucking philosophy bullshit.

its not designed to foprce people to use windows its a api developed by microsoft for windows. Yes new features to new stuff that is how everything works, im not saying its ideal but that is how basically every thing we are sold work. With the new thing you buy you get all the new stuff. Im guessing you just dont want to pay for the update which doesnt make sense since they spent money making it. To go to win8 was $40 or even just $15 depending when you bought your PC. And 8.1 upgrade was free for all windows 8 users.

[TheProfosist]

what were your boot times with win7? o,o

Win7 boot times but win8 are quicker almost instant for me. I am only waiting on the few devices that only support BIOS not UEFI.

[TheProfosist]

Oh and yes I just went though thread

[Misanthrope]

its not designed to foprce people to use windows its a api developed by microsoft for windows. Yes new features to new stuff that is how everything works, im not saying its ideal but that is how basically every thing we are sold work.

 

No, not everything, OpenGL exists. Linux has been fighting this uphill battle for decades trying to change exactly this misconceptions on how proprietary code it's the only way to go and the only way to make money, it's just not and not actually better for the consumer, in fact it's only good for Microsoft since it forces everybody, consumers and developers, to remain on the platform regardless of the stupid fucking decisions they make, people buy windows updates not because they're cheap, not because they offer compelling new features and technology, not because they offer improved security or performance, but simply because Microsoft finds ways to FORCE YOU to update against your will: By stopping the support of older versions, by stopping the sales of older versions and forcing OEM manufacturers to switch.

I realize I'm (surprisingly) the minority here but Direct X, just like all Microsoft products, It's designed to stomp out the competition first, bring you features second. If Steam OS catches on time will prove this as people gain significant performance just by switching and realize how MS has been a boat anchor for PC Gaming for decades.

[TheProfosist]

No, not everything, OpenGL exists. Linux has been fighting this uphill battle for decades trying to change exactly this misconceptions on how proprietary code it's the only way to go and the only way to make money, it's just not and not actually better for the consumer, in fact it's only good for Microsoft since it forces everybody, consumers and developers, to remain on the platform regardless of the stupid fucking decisions they make, people buy windows updates not because they're cheap, not because they offer compelling new features and technology, not because they offer improved security or performance, but simply because Microsoft finds ways to FORCE YOU to update against your will: By stopping the support of older versions, by stopping the sales of older versions and forcing OEM manufacturers to switch.

I realize I'm (surprisingly) the minority here but Direct X, just like all Microsoft products, It's designed to stomp out the competition first, bring you features second. If Steam OS catches on time will prove this as people gain significant performance just by switching and realize how MS has been a boat anchor for PC Gaming for decades.

Well there is already OpenCL 2 Which AMD was talking about as it benefits their newer cards if stuff starts to use it. And yes thats a new API updated version of OpenCL. Its equatable to DX9 to DX10 or however you want to look at it.

They stop support for older versions because after a certain point people are no longer going to buy that version anymore so continuing support only costs them money. I mean I they could change to having to pay for extended support after while but people would hate that just as much if not more likely. So what would a completely free widows suffice in satisfying you?

Thats how everything that tries to make money works? I mean if you can come up with a way to make it all free and everyone still stay in business and make money please do.

I doubt that will be the case and those who switch to SteamOS would be the only that really only use their PC for gaming in the first place. Surprisingly PC gaming isnt am will never be microsofts main concern. Do you know why developers develop for windows? Its the same reason most F2P games are still 32bit, single thread optimized, and run on DX9. That reason is install base. Anyone with a windows PC could install their game and windows is the majority of the market.

[Misanthrope]

They stop support for older versions because after a certain point people are no longer going to buy that version anymore so continuing support only costs them money. I mean I they could change to having to pay for extended support after while but people would hate that just as much if not more likely. So what would a completely free widows suffice in satisfying you?

 

How about a version of windows that isn't a complete piece of fucking garbage that I would consider be worthy of an update? Yes this ties into your example: A lot of development stopped flat on it's track on Direct X 9 like you mention, and yes like you mention but this was true even when Direct X 10 was brand new. You wanna hear why nobody talks about Direct X 10 and everything its either 9 or 11? Because Direct X 10 was a windows vista exclusive and NOBODY wanted to upgrade to Vista (piece of shit, garbage, etc.) The fact that Microsoft decided "we don't care if developers suffer, we will make this new version exclusive to our newest OS version because fuck you, you must update" hurt PC gaming a lot. If you look at the timing this was a bit before Steam was a popular thing and PC gaming all but disappeared from the retail, most people denounced it as the death of the PC, most pc game development stopped, we are only now beginning to see PC exclusives again, etc.

Nobody is saying Microsoft isn't allowed to make money, this is about them using their size to still make money out of subpar products. Yes it did hurt them as well but not as much as it hurt the PC Gaming industry. It's easy to say "oh they aren't that relevant anymore" but for a while they basically dictated what happened on PC gaming before Valve was big enough to undermine them like they do now.

[Advent]

what were your boot times with win7? o,o

Windows 7 boot times were like 30 seconds to 1 minute depending. Game launch times about 30 seconds. Transitions into Skyrim sometimes a minmute. Pretty much everything loads instantly or within 3-5 seconds on Win 8.1 for me.

[geogga]

I got my 840evo with a relatively fresh install of windows 7 with some programs and it had the same boot time as my old windows install: like 20 seconds.

You guys do bring up a good point of windows 8 utilizing the shortcuts, but I don't think I could remember half of it let alone transition from game to game and messing up with the controls.

I also learned a bunch while you fellows were argueing. basically I got that MS is a bunch of suckers because they're the only one with Directx and everything else is OpenGL causing devs of games and such to make somethign available only for the one popular OS, causing more work for devs to make it for OpenGL. I have no clue what i said, someone clarify if I'm right or wrong? Thanks, from a guy who knows nothing about software.

[beebskadoo]

These two numbers aren't from the same year, braniac. And also, way to talk for people

regardless, what I say is absolutely true. 

calling someone 'braniac' is also a bit childish.

[mr moose]

I got my 840evo with a relatively fresh install of windows 7 with some programs and it had the same boot time as my old windows install: like 20 seconds.

You guys do bring up a good point of windows 8 utilizing the shortcuts, but I don't think I could remember half of it let alone transition from game to game and messing up with the controls.

I also learned a bunch while you fellows were argueing. basically I got that MS is a bunch of suckers because they're the only one with Directx and everything else is OpenGL causing devs of games and such to make somethign available only for the one popular OS, causing more work for devs to make it for OpenGL. I have no clue what i said, someone clarify if I'm right or wrong? Thanks, from a guy who knows nothing about software.

 

Sort of, the problem is not coding for any one particular API but how many API's game dev's are willing to code for (the end users they can sell to, if they don't code for PS4 then they can't sell to that market). The issue some people have with direct x is that they feel because you have to upgrade to win8 in order to get the latest DX that we are being forced to upgrade our OS, I.E an undue cost. However these people also use the argument that Opengl is better and mantle is better therefore DX is irrelevant, you can see then how it is a self defeating argument, Either dx is not relevant and dev's can code for opengl (still playable on windows). Or it is relevant and any game dev that codes for it will be limiting their game market to win8 .  Not a very logical conclusion.

[deathjester]

Sort of, the problem is not coding for any one particular API but how many API's game dev's are willing to code for (the end users they can sell to, if they don't code for PS4 then they can't sell to that market). The issue some people have with direct x is that they feel because you have to upgrade to win8 in order to get the latest DX that we are being forced to upgrade our OS, I.E an undue cost. However these people also use the argument that Opengl is better and mantle is better therefore DX is irrelevant, you can see then how it is a self defeating argument, Either dx is not relevant and dev's can code for opengl (still playable on windows). Or it is relevant and any game dev that codes for it will be limiting their game market to win8 .  Not a very logical conclusion.

 

Mantle is basically DirectX with extensions (and all these extensions do is cut down on how much garbage, the API has as overhead).

 

Mantle can be extensions on OpenGL as well (AMD has already said this, Carmack said that OpenGL with extensions is the same damn thing). Mantle uses the DirectX shader library because the game (BF4) and games (mantle games) are made with those shaders. Mantle and the DirectX on a Xbox = same damn thing. This is all marketing. AMD? Could care less which API wins. They just want extensions to use their cpu's better, because they are way behind Intel in games, where all of their cores aren't used well.

 

People called OpenGL a low level API in this thread. That is 100 percent absolutely false. It is just a better DirectX. It has ALWAYS been slightly better then DirectX except for when MS sabotaged it's performance in Vista. The newer OpenGL is ahead by quite a bit. Still we are forced to use Windows 8 and Direct X, which is stupid because...

 

Wi, Mobile, PS4, Mac, Linux, Steam OS, Windows can all use OpenGL. OpenGL is not "harder to code for". They have already been using it when they do a Mac Port, or a PS4 port, or a Nintendo port. People just got used to using DirectX, because they were FORCED to use it on Vista. OpenGL performance was crippled. Add to that to the Xbox getting PC ports and people just used DirectX instead.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows

 

DirectX is pointless because only two platforms use it, and both could run OpenGL and get better performance. Period. End of story. The only reason DirectX exists is to create a monopoly of forced OS upgrades on the PC. Xbox has always lost money and it is advertising and a way to promote DirectX. It was not designed to make a profit. It was designed to push Windows as a gaming OS and cripple other OS's in gaming. 

 

All games used to be OpenGL. This is not some "new api" or something no one knows how to use. The only reason that changed is MS sabotaging OpenGL and Xbox being relevant. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_programs

[mr moose]

Mantle is basically DirectX with extensions (and all these extensions do is cut down on how much garbage, the API has as overhead).

 

Mantle can be extensions on OpenGL as well (AMD has already said this, Carmack said that OpenGL with extensions is the same damn thing). Mantle uses the DirectX shader library because the game (BF4) and games (mantle games) are made with those shaders. Mantle and the DirectX on a Xbox = same damn thing. This is all marketing. AMD? Could care less which API wins. They just want extensions to use their cpu's better, because they are way behind Intel in games, where all of their cores aren't used well.

 

People called OpenGL a low level API in this thread. That is 100 percent absolutely false. It is just a better DirectX. It has ALWAYS been slightly better then DirectX except for when MS sabotaged it's performance in Vista. The newer OpenGL is ahead by quite a bit. Still we are forced to use Windows 8 and Direct X, which is stupid because...

 

Wi, Mobile, PS4, Mac, Linux, Steam OS, Windows can all use OpenGL. OpenGL is not "harder to code for". They have already been using it when they do a Mac Port, or a PS4 port, or a Nintendo port. People just got used to using DirectX, because they were FORCED to use it on Vista. OpenGL performance was crippled. Add to that to the Xbox getting PC ports and people just used DirectX instead.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows

 

DirectX is pointless because only two platforms use it, and both could run OpenGL and get better performance. Period. End of story. The only reason DirectX exists is to create a monopoly of forced OS upgrades on the PC. Xbox has always lost money and it is advertising and a way to promote DirectX. It was not designed to make a profit. It was designed to push Windows as a gaming OS and cripple other OS's in gaming. 

 

All games used to be OpenGL. This is not some "new api" or something no one knows how to use. The only reason that changed is MS sabotaging OpenGL and Xbox being relevant. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_programs

 

My point is, because opengl and mantle is better than direct X (and I have never said they aren't) and directx is "pointless" and no longer required, then how can anyone argue that MS is using it to push windows as an os and force users to upgrade? 

[Antistatic12]

This is interesting, but what i want to know is the stats for sales to customers as opposed to oem's. As this number is clearly the total of activated W8 keys.

[deathjester]

My point is, because opengl and mantle is better than direct X (and I have never said they aren't) and directx is "pointless" and no longer required, then how can anyone argue that MS is using it to push windows as an os and force users to upgrade? 

 

Uh...

 

They held back a  new DirectX in Vista, ruined OpenGL performance, and with Win 8 they again withheld a Direct X from 7. MS makes their money from software. Xbox is advertising. They have lost like 3 billion on it since it's creation. It is a drop in the bucket for them to push DirectX and Windows as a gaming OS.

 

Steam OS might change this all. If game devs make native steam ports for it? MS might say the hell with Direct X AND Xbox. It isn't that MS is changing, the landscape is changing. 

 

Personally? I think MS would be much better off making top tier video makers, and soccer mom friendly stuff like Imovie. Pretty sad when Linux has things like Openshot that are free and superior. Not that Linux is an alternative for most soccer moms. I am just saying that MS is WAY behind Mac OS as far as good, simple programs that anyone can pick up and use easily.

 

THAT is where they should be investing. Make Windows as user friendly as Mac OS as far as every day stuff that people want to do and give the option of not having things forced down peoples throats. That will sell the OS on Steam machines. Embrace OpenGL, and add things like video capture for gameplay etc. MS simply needs to adapt. Put things like Kinect on the PC. Drop the damn Xbox all together.

 

They may already be doing things like this. MS isn't stupid. They are just ruthless and very ambitious. 

[Analog]

You can add to that number at least 50-100mil more cracked versions of Windows 8 activated with KMS. Lots of people I know are running Windows 8 without exactly having paid for it if you know what I mean. 

[Albatross]

200 Mil people are suffering.

 

 

:rolleyes:

[mr moose]

Uh...

 

They held back a  new DirectX in Vista, ruined OpenGL performance, and with Win 8 they again withheld a Direct X from 7. MS makes their money from software. Xbox is advertising. They have lost like 3 billion on it since it's creation. It is a drop in the bucket for them to push DirectX and Windows as a gaming OS.

 

Steam OS might change this all. If game devs make native steam ports for it? MS might say the hell with Direct X AND Xbox. It isn't that MS is changing, the landscape is changing. 

 

Personally? I think MS would be much better off making top tier video makers, and soccer mom friendly stuff like Imovie. Pretty sad when Linux has things like Openshot that are free and superior. Not that Linux is an alternative for most soccer moms. I am just saying that MS is WAY behind Mac OS as far as good, simple programs that anyone can pick up and use easily.

 

THAT is where they should be investing. Make Windows as user friendly as Mac OS as far as every day stuff that people want to do and give the option of not having things forced down peoples throats. That will sell the OS on Steam machines. Embrace OpenGL, and add things like video capture for gameplay etc. MS simply needs to adapt. Put things like Kinect on the PC. Drop the damn Xbox all together.

 

They may already be doing things like this. MS isn't stupid. They are just ruthless and very ambitious. 

I thought you said opengl performance was better in windows than directx?