Radeon - And the prices climb even higher.

[Strider]

Dropping this is the Graphics Card section, seems to fit here, if this is not the case then I apologize. =]

 

The crypto mining craze is really exploding, and from this gamers perspective, it's really starting to hurt AMD's competitiveness in the gaming market.

The non-reference 290/X cards have jumped in price yet again, going up to about $650/$750 on most trusted sites here in the US. Up from $620/$720 on Friday and over the weekend.

This is not just bumping up against the Nvidia GTX 780 and 780Ti, but surpassing it. The prices of the high end AMD cards were already massively overinflated thanks to crypto mining, all but loosing the very competitive MSRP price points that made them such fantastic deals.

We are past the point of being able to logically suggest the high end AMD offerings when you can get a much better deal going with Nvidia. You can get a GTX 780 Ti for as low as about $700 on many sites, that's only $50 over the 290 and $50 under the 290X. This completely kills the price to performance of the AMD cards. More that kills, it decimates it in the eyes of many.

Now I fully understand marketing, supply and demand, etc. Yes, the prices being driven up on the AMD cards is a result of demand, and they are making a great deal of fast profit as a result of the run on the cards for crypto mining. The thing is, in the meantime, you're running the very real risk of pushing your customers who may have either stuck with AMD, or went with AMD due to the very competitive MSRP prices, over to the competition.

The thing is, the crypto bubble will pop, either as new coins pop up that are less resistant, or mining specific hardware gets cheaper, whatever. Your gamer base, your long term customers, are the ones that are being risked. Especially now, with the 290/X being the latest offerings from AMD, and Nvidia's next gen just around the corner. This is just horrible timing for AMD in my humble opinion.

To clarify, I don't carry the "fanboy" label, I do prefer AMD in my personal gaming rig, but I use Nvidia in many of my other builds. I did just purchase a 290 on Friday (@ $619), but I also just picked up an EVGA 780 shortly before that. I am a geek,  professional system builder, and a gamer, and I can't very well test, review, or play with hardware I don't own. So myself, and perhaps others here, may be an exception. However I think a vast majority of current AMD GPU users looking for a high-end upgrade will be very hard pressed to justify it at the current prices, not when Nvidia can give you the same or better gaming performance out of the box at the same or lower prices.

What are your thoughts or opinions on the subject?

[xrex64]

I wouldn't recommend an AMD card to someone who is gaming and isn't mining as of today. 

[tryphaa]

I almost believe AMD is digging themselves a hole, once mining dies out I would hope the prices would return to normal. That's the only business they'll get. Imagine how much they would be raking in had the prices not skyrocketed. I know they want more money but I feel making everyone else that isnt mining not want to overpay for their cards isnt right.

 

 

TLDR: Die mining. I loathe you. AMD, lower your prices so we have a reason to buy your cards for gaming.

[coen113]

I havent seen any price increase yet here, maybe i should start dealing 290's

[tryphaa]

I havent seen any price increase yet here, maybe i should start dealing 290's

Buy em' from somewhere cheap then $50 dollars below retail, people will come crawling to you lmao.

[Guest]

Here in Germany the prices dropped by around 50€ last friday ;-)

[dizmo]

I don't think that it will affect the long term loyalty at all. When it comes down to it, if AMD cards drop back down to reasonable levels and can turn out cards that offer an excellent cost to performance value, people will buy them.

Gamers aren't going to be like "hey, remember when these cards were over priced? I'm not going to save the money now, because I couldn't buy their cards before."

It's just not a logical train of though.

 

Either way, AMD is making money. Money that can be used for R&D. I don't think they care, frankly, where that money is coming from.

[Strider]

I almost believe AMD is digging themselves a hole, once mining dies out I would hope the prices would return to normal. That's the only business they'll get. Imagine how much they would be raking in had the prices not skyrocketed. I know they want more money but I feel making everyone else that isnt mining not want to overpay for their cards isnt right.

 

 

TLDR: Die mining. I loathe you. AMD, lower your prices so we have a reason to buy your cards for gaming.

 

That's one of my concerns, how deep will the hold be dug?

 

I bet there still would have been a supply and demand issue on the 290/X cards to some extent, even without the mining, but it would have been for the right reason in my opinion. The very competitive prices pulling in gamer would have been the motivation. Granted, it would not have pushed demand as much as the mining, but personally I think the mining is pushing to a breaking point.

 

Also, in defense of AMD, they really only sell the GPU and tech, the third party manufacturers are the ones where the biggest markups are coming from since they are the ones on the front lines of the supply and demand war.

 

 

I don't think that it will affect the long term loyalty at all. When it comes down to it, if AMD cards drop back down to reasonable levels and can turn out cards that offer an excellent cost to performance value, people will buy them.

Gamers aren't going to be like "hey, remember when these cards were over priced? I'm not going to save the money now, because I couldn't buy their cards before."

It's just not a logical train of though.

 

Either way, AMD is making money. Money that can be used for R&D. I don't think they care, frankly, where that money is coming from.

 

These are all very good points.

 

I still think it will hurt the numbers due to timing alone. With it being a next gen release and their highest end offerings $200 over MSRP, and the competitions next gen just around the corner while beating you with their current gen in price to performance. I can not even count the number of people I have seen who were upgrading or doing a new build, who were considering AMD, that have jumped ship and went with Nvidia based on the current prices along. It's what prompted me to make this thread actually. 

 

Even in my own small business, I have built 4 new rigs in the past week, for 4 different customers, and in 3 of the 4 cases Nvidia was chosen over AMD becasue of the overinflated prices.

 

I think a lot will ride on how long this trend continues, and if AMD really takes that influx of cash and dumps it into R&D as you said. When the bubble pops, if they can turn that profit into something they can bring to market and wow the gamers, then I agree, they should have no problems winning back customers that may have switched. Save for the hardcore fans, many gamers follow the price to performance, as long as AMD can bring that back, they should indeed be fine in the long term. It's the here and now that concerns me.

 

=]

[Scionyde]

Well, depends on the country, I suppose. The 290 vs. 780 is a good comparison to look at due to similar performance, and although the 780's cheaper here in the US, in some countries, Nvidia prices are pretty damn high for whatever reason (taxes, import costs, dunno).

 

I don't know how many people consider themselves truly loyal to a brand. I'd hope that most people are being objective and are just getting the best card they can for their budget, so that whole "being put off from AMD" idea isn't a huge issue.

[Vitalius]

I wouldn't recommend an AMD card to someone who is gaming and isn't mining as of today. 

I would recommend a 290X over a 780, Titan, or 780 Ti for gaming or mining personally. 

Consistency is king in FPS in the highest tiers of GPUs. Especially when most people only have 60Hz monitors.

[thedigitalmilk]

This is mainly a US thing, It may be hurting AMD's name for Gaming but I dont think they mind the fuck tonne of cards they are selling...

[coen113]

Here in Germany the prices dropped by around 50€ last friday ;-)

Silly europe

[Superarragon]

I wonder if I should've gotten an R9 280x when it was $400, because the price keeps going up...

[tryphaa]

Well, depends on the country, I suppose. The 290 vs. 780 is a good comparison to look at due to similar performance, and although the 780's cheaper here in the US, in some countries, Nvidia prices are pretty damn high for whatever reason (taxes, import costs, dunno).

I don't know how many people consider themselves truly loyal to a brand. I'd hope that most people are being objective and are just getting the best card they can for their budget, so that whole "being put off from AMD" idea isn't a huge issue.

Yes. All of this. I would be all over 2 290's had they still been $500 each. Nvidia is not necessarily an angel, but they look a little better right now.

I would recommend a 290X over a 780, Titan, or 780 Ti for gaming or mining personally.

Consistency is king in FPS in the highest tiers of GPUs. Especially when most people only have 60Hz monitors.

Had the 290(x)'s price still been low (U.S.) this would be relevant. The 780 is still incredibly powerful.

I wonder if I should've gotten an R9 280x when it was $400, because the price keeps going up...

Hey, remember when they were $300 for like that first week? Oh yea, I dont either. Just get a 770 or wait for maxwell at this point.

[Superarragon]

Hey, remember when they were $300 for like that first week? Oh yea, I dont either. Just get a 770 or wait for maxwell at this point.

 

I was going to get one when it was $300, but I just decided to get a GTX 770 a month ago. I'm pretty happy with it too because it's a huge leap from an integrated GeForce 9200. I wish I got a GTX 780 for only $500, but oh well.

[Scionyde]

I would recommend a 290X over a 780, Titan, or 780 Ti for gaming or mining personally. 

Consistency is king in FPS in the highest tiers of GPUs. Especially when most people only have 60Hz monitors.

 

Is that really true across the board with a significant difference? Most of the fps vs. time graphs I see in benchmarks usually show Nvidia and AMD cards being pretty similar - I don't typically see one spiking over and below the other. 

[Vitalius]

Had the 290(x)'s price still been low (U.S.) this would be relevant. The 780 is still incredibly powerful.

The cheapest US based 290X is $580. The cheapest US based 780 is $490. The difference is more consistency, an extra GB of VRAM, Mantle (which is free along with TruAudio), and the inevitable option to mine (I know you said aside from that, but having the option is nice and means the GPU will retain it's value better over time, regardless of whether you mine or not). 

I say $80 is worth the improved consistency and extra GB of VRAM alone if you plan to game on larger resolutions in the future. 

I just don't see the point in buying a GPU that inflates it's Average FPS by getting unnecessarily high Maximum FPS when nothing is really happening on screen when you can't display it (60Hz is most people's limits and will be for 4K more than likely). 

Long term, I believe the 290X is worth the extra $80. Short term, the 780 is better. 

[Cwazywazy]

AMD should just take a ton of their 290Xs and set up a gigantic mining array for a lot more money.

[Strider]

One benefit.

 

I have both an XFX Radeon 7950 and 7970, I actually have two 7950's. However I was thinking about selling one 7950 and the 7970 since they are going for such crazy high prices here in the US. Drop them on eBay and make about $700. =P

 

I am running the 7970 in my main system at the moment, it's the one being replaced with the 290.

[ThePcMasterRace]

In the US you can just buy these cards from shop blt..,, http://www.shopblt.com/ their 280x are still below $350 and 290 is $450 (non refrence)

[tryphaa]

The cheapest US based 290X is $580. The cheapest US based 780 is $490. The difference is more consistency, an extra GB of VRAM, Mantle (which is free along with TruAudio), and the inevitable option to mine (I know you said aside from that, but having the option is nice and means the GPU will retain it's value better over time, regardless of whether you mine or not). 

I say $80 is worth the improved consistency and extra GB of VRAM alone if you plan to game on larger resolutions in the future. 

I just don't see the point in buying a GPU that inflates it's Average FPS by getting unnecessarily high Maximum FPS when nothing is really happening on screen when you can't display it (60Hz is most people's limits and will be for 4K more than likely). 

Long term, I believe the 290X is worth the extra $80. Short term, the 780 is better. 

I see your point, and I now agree. If you upgrade once a year to the next gen, than get a 780. If you plan on 2+, then get the 290(x) for the vram and similar performance.

[DirkaFat]

The cheapest US based 290X is $580. The cheapest US based 780 is $490. The difference is more consistency, an extra GB of VRAM, Mantle (which is free along with TruAudio), and the inevitable option to mine (I know you said aside from that, but having the option is nice and means the GPU will retain it's value better over time, regardless of whether you mine or not). 

I say $80 is worth the improved consistency and extra GB of VRAM alone if you plan to game on larger resolutions in the future. 

I just don't see the point in buying a GPU that inflates it's Average FPS by getting unnecessarily high Maximum FPS when nothing is really happening on screen when you can't display it (60Hz is most people's limits and will be for 4K more than likely). 

Long term, I believe the 290X is worth the extra $80. Short term, the 780 is better. 

Hmmm. You say a r9 290x for $580? Only $30 above MSRP, wow.

 

 

Where? Are they still in stock?

[Strider]

In the US you can just buy these cards from shop blt..,, http://www.shopblt.com/ their 280x are still below $350 and 290 is $450 (non refrence)

 

Yeah, I looked into them as well, but they can not keep the cards in stock (290/x). While you can still order one, you have no idea how long you're going to be waiting to get your card. They list dates of 2/18 to 2/26 as when they will their inventory stock refilled on just that one XFX 290. So if you order today, you're not even going to get your card out of that back-order, but you will have to wait for the next order cycle, so well over a month at least. Unless you get lucky and pick up one of the few extras they may have, but I doubt it since they are always on back-order. lol

 

 

 

Hmmm. You say a r9 290x for $580? Only $30 above MSRP, wow.

 

 

Where? Are they still in stock?

 

That's the problem. You can find lower prices here in the US, but they are almost always out of stock, or on huge back-order lists.

[Vitalius]

Hmmm. You say a r9 290x for $580? Only $30 above MSRP, wow.

 

 

Where? Are they still in stock?

Sadly no. At Amazon. I didn't consider if they were in stock. My bad.

 

Is that really true across the board with a significant difference? Most of the fps vs. time graphs I see in benchmarks usually show Nvidia and AMD cards being pretty similar - I don't typically see one spiking over and below the other.

The only real data from people who test this stuff (that I have found) is from a comparison between the 7970 GHz edition and the Titan/780. Obviously this is dated, but there is no similar comparison that I've found between the 2XX GPUs and those GPUs. Edit: See other edit further down. /edit

Simply put, the 7XXX series was GCN like the 2XX series is. And the 7970 GHz edition beat the Titan/780 when it comes to "time spent at minimum FPS or near it". Although the Titan/780 beat it at everything else (which imo doesn't matter for normal people in the highest tier of GPU). Which is a fancy way to say it spent less time, proportionately, to it's minimum FPS than the Titan/780 did. If the 7970 beat them at consistency (staying near the Average FPS, relative to the Minimum/Maximum FPS) and is based on the same architecture, I am left to assume the 290 (X or not) will only do better. 

This graph specifically is what sways me. And it's repeated in all their tests. No one else has graphs like this, and I think that's somewhat telling, in and of itself. 

For reference, the most important information you can get about the highest tier GPUs is minimum FPS and how often it occurs or almost occurs. Because the rest shouldn't matter for normal people. The maximum will always be above the refresh rate (60Hz, I constitute 120/144Hz people as "not normal") and thus irrelevant beyond needing V/G/Free-Sync or causing Screen Tearing, and the average will always be near it with few exceptions (Crysis). And minimum FPS is what will jar you out of the game the most, for obvious reasons.

 

Edit: And through Google, I have found a more recent review involving the 780/Titan and the 290X. I've already written everything above and have little time to re-do it, but it seems I was right. Look at the 99th percentile Frame Timing graphs. The 290X beats the 780/Titan just as the 7970 GHz edition did. Although the 99th percentile doesn't cover the "minimum FPS occurrence" information very well, it does so more than anything else does. 

 

TL;DR:

For the most expensive GPUs, the most important thing is minimum FPS occurrence because you know, for the money you pay, for normal users/gamers (non-4K, non-120/144Hz), these GPUs will have a good Average and Maximum FPS. It's minimum that becomes important because it is the only thing that matters, and the 290X beats the 780/Titan in this.

Let me ask you this, how likely are you to notice a difference between 65 FPS and 75 FPS (Maximum FPS examples) with a 60Hz monitor? Or 55FPS and 60 FPS (Average FPS examples)? Or 35 FPS an 30 FPS (Minimum FPS examples)?

I think you can tell which of those would be most noticeable. 

 

I see your point, and I now agree. If you upgrade once a year to the next gen, than get a 780. If you plan on 2+, then get the 290(x) for the vram and similar performance.

Just quoting you to show you the performance side of my argument.

[addbot]

over here an R9 290x non reference is comparable to non reference gtx 780Ti in price ...