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      Please Use CODE Tags   31 Jan 2016

      Welcome to the Programming and Software Design Section,

      When asking for help with programming issues, please use the code tags to enclose your code, it makes things much more easily readable for the people trying to help you, thus improving your chances of actually getting help.
        To add code tags, click the <> button on the editor toolbar, then enter your code in the code editor that appears. If you are on a mobile device, or prefer to use BBCode, you can use [code] // Your code here // It will be syntax highlighted, though not necessarily corectly. [/code] (but the code editor is more consistent and less buggy).
Samputio

Programming and employment

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20 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Especially since a lot of schools aren't always up to date on the latest and greatest. Then again the latest and greatest isn't exactly the greatest

 

And, while I'm not advocating we replace formal education with this, you can get a cursory know-how on Wikipedia or the internet in general. The only thing I find formal education provides is structure and the ability to exercise what you've learned in a much easier fashion. For example, I had a class in how multimedia algorithms work. Without structure, I wouldn't really know where to start or go to next. Without the school's connections to MathWorks, I wouldn't be able to demonstrate the algorithms on Matlab (which I guess I could do in C or Python, but it'd be more work than necessary)

Algorithms have no need to be the latest and greatest Lol.

 

my intro CS course taught java swing as a GUI when Oracle is already retiring it in favor of JavaFX so yeah, much of the stuffs are outdated but they are teaching the concepts rather than what the industry actually uses. 

 

Techonology can be outdated but concepts can’t. All OOP languages, regardless however evolved will have abstract data structures like list, stacks, queque for example and unless some brilliant mathematicians figure out an algorithms that can factor infinitely many prime factors in an instant, we are going to rely on the same underlying encryption.


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3 hours ago, MyName13 said:

My point is that people complain how CS college degrees don't prepare people for software development when they aren't even supposed to be software developers.

Here in Scotland you have computer science or games development.

 

I did software development for 2 years before doing year 3 of computer science which had everything from database design to computer architecture to ethics to web services.

 

For the 5 years i was studying, software development (as said I did 1 year of CS)

 

We learnt OOP and some designs such as class diagrams, all materials were in visual basic.

 

There was nothing about version control, any other styles of programming, nothing about how to properly layout a project folder, nothing about frameworks.

 

I use none of what I was shown in eductaion in my actual job, I basically wasted 5 years of my life to have a bit of paper to say this guy did some stuff.

 

 


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2 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

 

 

I use none of what I was shown in eductaion in my actual job, I basically wasted 5 years of my life to have a bit of paper to say this guy did some stuff.

 

 

But there are so many frameworks out there and github is version control software tool instead of a computer or science. Academia isn’t a trade school unfortunately. It shouldn’t be either otherwise edcaution would be job training and college would be vocational school instead of an instuition of professional intelligentsia. :/


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I'm surprised no one has mentioned internships. a nice advantage about going to school is that opportunity to gain some industry experience. it might even become an offer down the road, so you have some jobs lined up by the time you graduate

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11 hours ago, wasab said:

But there are so many frameworks out there and github is version control software tool instead of a computer or science. Academia isn’t a trade school unfortunately. It shouldn’t be either otherwise edcaution would be job training and college would be vocational school instead of an instuition of professional intelligentsia. :/

But what's the point in being educated in things that no one in the industry uses? Or In the the terms of git what everyone uses yet you're never taught  it.

 

When I did software development course for 2 years I expect my money to give me something worth while but what I have is a very expensive certificate.


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
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14 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

Here in Scotland you have computer science or games development.

 

I did software development for 2 years before doing year 3 of computer science which had everything from database design to computer architecture to ethics to web services.

 

For the 5 years i was studying, software development (as said I did 1 year of CS)

 

We learnt OOP and some designs such as class diagrams, all materials were in visual basic.

 

There was nothing about version control, any other styles of programming, nothing about how to properly layout a project folder, nothing about frameworks.

 

I use none of what I was shown in eductaion in my actual job, I basically wasted 5 years of my life to have a bit of paper to say this guy did some stuff.

 

 

Universities offer games development courses? O.o Is that government owned or private university?It might have been better if you had finished 4 years of just CS.Are you sure you aren't overqualified for your current job position and can't find a better job that requires some of that knowledge?By the way, did you study a 3 year program for 5 years or 2 years of SE + 3 years of CS?

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1 hour ago, MyName13 said:

Universities offer games development courses? O.o Is that government owned or private university?It might have been better if you had finished 4 years of just CS.Are you sure you aren't overqualified for your current job position and can't find a better job that requires some of that knowledge?By the way, did you study a 3 year program for 5 years or 2 years of SE + 3 years of CS?

I did 2 years of software development and then did 1 year (year 3) of a cs to get my degree.

 

I'm software engineer at glabs and this is our product.

 

https://www.financial-cloud.com/#!/

 

I don't feel over qualified for my current role and I don't feel like it's above my understanding.

 

Before starting work I did a year of free lance building a number of python scripts to do lots of things from scraping websites for products to batch uploading themes to WordPress websites.


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
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4 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

But what's the point in being educated in things that no one in the industry uses? Or In the the terms of git what everyone uses yet you're never taught  it.

 

When I did software development course for 2 years I expect my money to give me something worth while but what I have is a very expensive certificate.

Same reason as why kids learn social studies, math, and English in elementary, middle, and high school. These are not training you for any particular job. They are general education which is necessary. 

 

Git it is just a tool. You may use calculator in math class but math is not about learning calculator. These tools are something you learn on your own. Education is more about teaching the underlying concept and more importantly, sharpen your critical and reasoning skills.

 

What you choose to use these concepts for, whether to go into software development, reasearch, be network administrators ect is entirely up to you.

 

Liberal arts degree practically teach no technical skills that will be relevant to the job industry and yet employers still prefer them over those without a degree for various reasons.


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7 hours ago, wasab said:

Same reason as why kids learn social studies, math, and English in elementary, middle, and high school. These are not training you for any particular job. They are general education which is necessary. 

So science isn't teaching you anything that will help with science? It doesn't teach about creating hypnosis and testing methodology? 

 

And maths doesn't teach you functions? Or ways to do caluations?

 

These are all tools you need to learn to do a job in these fields and you do get taught them one school so why should computing be any different?

 

You don't learn things in maths/science that aren't used In these fields.


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

So science isn't teaching you anything that will help with science? It doesn't teach about creating hypnosis and testing methodology? 

 

And maths doesn't teach you functions? Or ways to do caluations?

 

These are all tools you need to learn to do a job in these fields and you do get taught them one school so why should computing be any different?

 

You don't learn things in maths/science that aren't used In these fields.

If you want to look at it this way, in what ways are a computer science education not preparing you for a career in computer technology?

 

you don’t need a calculator to learn math, in fact, my linear algebra and calculus course completely banned calculator. 

 

You dont need git to learn CS. Computer science predates git and heck, even invention of computer itself. It is “computer science” not git training just as math is teaching you mathematics, not how to use a calculator.

Edited by wasab
Stupid autocorrect

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18 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

But what's the point in being educated in things that no one in the industry uses? Or In the the terms of git what everyone uses yet you're never taught  it.

 

When I did software development course for 2 years I expect my money to give me something worth while but what I have is a very expensive certificate.

What certificate isn't expensive and taken seriously?


The great thing about programming is that information is plentiful and cheap - you can get a lot of awesome books on business, psychology and power dynamics at Amazon and Ebay, technology specific courses at places like Udemy and Udacity or free at MIT's OpenCourseWare. We have Stack Overflow, tons of free articles and tutorials, programming videos on YouTube. I can't think of another field where people have such an abundance of free and useful information and tools.

 

Its also one of the only fields where you can break six figures with a few years experience (as long as you change jobs often enough.) Think about all the poor shmucks who saddled themselves with debt to get degrees in teaching and social work and literary analysis and who will then make a pittance for the rest of their lives.


Web Developer and Java contractor

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4 hours ago, wasab said:
8 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

aren't used In these fields.

If you want to look at it this way, in what ways are a computer science education not preparing you for a career in computer technology?

Using code examples and requiring course work an a language that hasn't been updated in 2 decades, not at least showing students industry standard technologies such as git.

 

I am speaking from the uk but cs, software students come out vastly unprepared for working. 


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
`'°«„¸¸„»°'´¸„»°'´`'°«„¸Scientia Potentia est  ¸„»°'´`'°«„¸`'°«„¸¸„»°'´

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5 hours ago, programmer said:

What certificate isn't expensive and taken seriously?


The great thing about programming is that information is plentiful and cheap - you can get a lot of awesome books on business, psychology and power dynamics at Amazon and Ebay, technology specific courses at places like Udemy and Udacity or free at MIT's OpenCourseWare. We have Stack Overflow, tons of free articles and tutorials, programming videos on YouTube. I can't think of another field where people have such an abundance of free and useful information and tools.

 

Its also one of the only fields where you can break six figures with a few years experience (as long as you change jobs often enough.) Think about all the poor shmucks who saddled themselves with debt to get degrees in teaching and social work and literary analysis and who will then make a pittance for the rest of their lives.

I'm surprised by the difficulty of learning anything CS related while html / css / js / any programming language tutorials are available everywhere for free.Is it possible that nobody has created (good) free educational content related to machine learning, AI, information security etc.?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 15/04/2018 at 8:33 AM, vorticalbox said:

When I did software development course for 2 years I expect my money to give me something worth while but what I have is a very expensive certificate.

What is the alternative route? Do you know of any less expensive but still reputable certs that a young person can get to kick start their career? What path do you recommend to someone who knows for sure that university isn't for them?

I ask this question in terms of "How do I get a foot in?" rather than "How do I work as a programmer at a finance firm?". I'm not looking for an impressive job or salary, I'm just looking for an alternative to university. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MyName13 said:

I'm surprised by the difficulty of learning anything CS related while html / css / js / any programming language tutorials are available everywhere for free.Is it possible that nobody has created (good) free educational content related to machine learning, AI, information security etc.?

No, the problem is that a lot of useful Computer Science/Engineering material is actually rather heavy on theory and understanding. Security, AI and algorithms in general base themselves on mathematics and sometimes complex logic. You actually need some understanding of math and logic in order to understand and apply said concepts.

 

Programming itself isn't hard, though making robust, secure, complex and efficient applications often requires more knowledge and understanding than just knowing the syntax.

 

People tend to overestimate the importance of being able to code, while underestimating the supporting knowledge required in order to write good code and solve a problem in an efficient matter. Colleges teaching Computer Engineering the correct way will emphasize problem solving, useful algorithms and application modelling and architecture (and also some other useful concepts and paradigms). Coding is actually not that important due to how easy it is and how unimportant it is if you can't actually code well.

Edited by Raxzzer
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On 4/15/2018 at 2:33 AM, vorticalbox said:

But what's the point in being educated in things that no one in the industry uses? Or In the the terms of git what everyone uses yet you're never taught  it.

 

When I did software development course for 2 years I expect my money to give me something worth while but what I have is a very expensive certificate.

Those "expensive Certificates" open doors. It helps you land or be considered for a job you wouldn't have been without it.

 

I look at education the same way I do investing. The only difference is furthering my education is an investment into myself. So that is one thing I have no regret in investing in as I will be stuck with myself for the rest of my life.

 

It is also like investments in the fact it increases your worth. The more degrees I have the more knowledge, knowledge and experience are the two most important things in the workforce. If you have the knowledge gaining the experience comes with time and is pretty easy. 

 

A degree can be the different between making 35k as a contractor debugging code or making 120k writing it. Even if the contractor knows how to write the code, he doesn't have the knowledge and/or experience for that to become a reality anytime soon.

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8 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

Using code examples and requiring course work an a language that hasn't been updated in 2 decades, not at least showing students industry standard technologies such as git.

 

I am speaking from the uk but cs, software students come out vastly unprepared for working. 

CS isn’t about teaching you the latest and greatest tools used in the industry. I believe I mentioned it already. Does a writing class teach you how to use the latest Microsoft word? 


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4 hours ago, Raxzzer said:

No, the problem is that a lot of useful Computer Science/Engineering material is actually rather heavy on theory and understanding. Security, AI and algorithms in general base themselves on mathematics and sometimes complex logic. You actually need some understanding of math and logic in order to understand and apply said concepts.

 

Programming itself isn't hard, though making robust, secure, complex and efficient applications often requires more knowledge and understanding than just knowing the syntax.

 

People tend to overestimate the importance of being able to code, while underestimating the supporting knowledge required in order to write good code and solve a problem in an efficient matter. Colleges teaching Computer Engineering the correct way will emphasize problem solving, useful algorithms and application modelling and architecture (and also some other useful concepts and paradigms). Coding is actually not that important due to how easy it is and how unimportant it is if you can't actually code well.

I understand that, learning technologies requires no prior knowledge and you can start mashing the keyboard from the beginning.What I consider problematic (regarding CS) is that you can't educate yourself for free and investing into paid courses is very risky.When you go to college, they hold your hand the entire time and your only job is to learn, but when you have to educate yourself on the internet you need to find out what you have to know, you have to make your own curriculum and only then you start searching for educational materials.Everyone recommends that Andrew Ng's course on coursera (for machine learning) but it's definitely not comparable to serious college level education (mathematical background is needed and just when you think you've found what you need, you realize that you need to learn something else).

I find it incredibly strange that one can't educate himself for free on the internet, what happened to that "you can find anything on the internet"?Does no one want to share knowledge with others?The same problem is true when you try finding anything educational (you either find dumbed down crayon drawn explanations or something on the lowest level of abstraction), for example, try to find how passive RFID handles collisions.This is why colleges won't become obsolete soon.When age of the web and the amount of useful information are considered, you realize that most of it is garbage.

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2 hours ago, wasab said:

CS isn’t about teaching you the latest and greatest tools used in the industry. I believe I mentioned it already. Does a writing class teach you how to use the latest Microsoft word? 

No be it teaches you letters, to layout your writing in sentences and paragraphs and will also teach revisions.

 

You know create a first draft, error check and make the next draft just like you would in software development.

 

Science teaches to create a hypnosis, then create a test, do that test and finally a conclusion and how you how improve it.

 

Why do people thing computing should be different?

 

 Literally everything else teaches you things that are used in that field. 

 

Science doesn't teach you things from the 18th century (Unless still correct), why should computing teach you out of date information? 


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9 hours ago, Samputio said:

What is the alternative route? Do you know of any less expensive but still reputable certs that a young person can get to kick start their career? What path do you recommend to someone who knows for sure that university isn't for them?

I ask this question in terms of "How do I get a foot in?" rather than "How do I work as a programmer at a finance firm?". I'm not looking for an impressive job or salary, I'm just looking for an alternative to university. 

There are online boot camps. I don't know how effective they are or how good their alumni do, but if they are affordable then they could be a reasonable investment. Do a little research.

 

You could also start taking freelance jobs on upwork, fiver, reddit and craigslist - charge at least something but the goal is to develop work to completion. Keep the scopes small so you can complete a lot of projects and increase your rate as you go. If any of your friends or family need IT work then help them with it and write it down on your resume. You'd have some spending money/money for college and gain experience that might set you up for a job.

 

If you truly can't afford college then something like ROTC is not a bad deal - it obviously comes with a large time commitment but not only provides tuition but a lot of fringe benefits. *Edit: I just noticed London in the location - don't know if UK has a similar program.

 

I also want to say it again, there are tons of scholarships and grants. Most people never apply (I never did) and they leave free money on the table. Go look at the prices of your state's community colleges/state universities - if they cost more than online then get an online degree (you shouldn't mention that on your resume.)

 

*Edit: The job market for programmers outside the states is very different and if you plan to work in the UK then you should find a discussion board or group specific to your location to ask about what to expect (unless you're planning to work in the US.)


Web Developer and Java contractor

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@Samputio, I think things have gotten too far along the off-beaten path.

 

At the end of the day, I feel that software development is a highly technical skill that you attain either through formal training (i.e., school) or through experience and self-learning. And in any technical field, the people who get ahead are those who continue to learn and refine from what they've done. Or at the very least, have the ability to understand there is room for improvement and seek out where those improvements could come from.

 

As long as you're competent enough in what's being asked and can adjust to how the company does things, it doesn't really what the requirements are. The requirements on job postings are the ideal candidate and likely to weed out the people who don't have anything to show for to make up for the lack of hard meeting those requirements. However I'd still avoid going through the job board unless you meet most of those, since there's likely an automated filtering process that will drop your application if you don't put down certain key words (and you can't really fake those key words).

 

But then again, I feel that everyone's replies here, mine included, are just interpretations of what they've experienced. It's all true, but your millage may vary if you want to work for a company.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

Snip

Unless you wish to learn tools that will be outdated or updated in a few months, years, decades, universities shouldn’t teach you these things 

 

If Microsoft word word is taught in a writing course, it is for the purpose of teaching you writing, not the other way around. 

Edited by wasab
Too long, snip

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

everyone's replies here, mine included, are just interpretations of what they've experienced. It's all true,

 

1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

the people who get ahead are those who continue to learn and refine from what they've done. Or at the very least, have the ability to understand there is room for improvement and seek out where those improvements could come from.


I agree with this conclusion.
Advantages/disadvantages towards different paths. 
Different strokes for different folks.

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