face id 10-year old son can unlock mom’s iPhone X using FaceID

[jaggysnake57]

16 hours ago, Enderman said:

Or, you know, use a password instead like people have been doing for the past decade without any problems.

[bcredeur97]

Face ID does actively learn... if it fails for you for some reason, and then you enter a password after. it uses that image it "took" to process and learn your face better.

 

it's possible there was several occasions where the boy failed faceID, then handed to mom and she unlocked it, and the phone eventually learned that his face is her face...

 

The biggest problem I'm seeing with FaceID is apple went under the assumption that the phone will only be used by 1 person. (You'll notice you can't even add multiple faces)

[79wjd]

6 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

Face ID does actively learn... if it fails for you for some reason, and then you enter a password after. it uses that image it "took" to process and learn your face better.

 

it's possible there was several occasions where the boy failed faceID, then handed to mom and she unlocked it, and the phone eventually learned that his face is her face...

 

The biggest problem I'm seeing with FaceID is apple went under the assumption that the phone will only be used by 1 person. (You'll notice you can't even add multiple faces)

Supposedly that wasnt the case..... Although it could have just been overlooked or she could have lied for her two seconds of Internet Fame.

 

As for that last bit.... That is a pretty big oversight, but maybe there's also some clause that it will only add the face data if it's close enough. Unfortunately there really isn't enough detailed information on how faceID actually works nor has there been any extensive testing (with published results). So now it's really just a lot of guessing on both sides of the fence.

[Trixanity]

8 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

OLED is more efficient when there is a lot of black on the screen, which isn't always the case -- and certainly isn't the case in iOS, which is mostly white. Although, with that said, I haven't noticed much of a difference in battery life between my X and 6s+.

 

All those phoens have bezels on the top and bottom though. 

OLED has surpassed LCD in power efficiency when displaying white at normal brightness, so there are fewer and fewer instances where you'll find any efficiency gain from going LCD. And excluding iPhone, you have ample opportunity to go dark to completely obliterate LCD in efficiency. And any video playback will give you increased battery life with OLED.

 

Essential PH-1: no top bezel (with camera notch though).

Mi Mix: no top bezel.

G6: small top and bottom bezel.

S8/Note8: small top and bottom bezel.

iPhone X: almost no bezel but huge notch.

HTC U11+: small top and bottom bezel.

LG V30: small top and bottom bezel.

 

So bezels do not correlate with display technology. Rather it's about design and in some cases internal layout. Also, that was two LCD phones without a top bezel. On the other hand, you have Samsung who is without a doubt the best in the game retaining bezels on both top and bottom. They probably have their reasons but it's still noteworthy.

 

The issue is you still need a lot of hardware on the front of the phone. Different companies solve it in different ways.

[DildorTheDecent]

Who knew that a child, that looks like their parent could fool a device right out of the box. 

 

Shit needs to learn yo, oddly that's how machine learning works. Not like anybody bothered themselves to actually see the keynote. Whatever, LTT loves a good Apple bash. 

 

>Once it knows you. 

[79wjd]

22 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

OLED has surpassed LCD in power efficiency when displaying white at normal brightness, so there are fewer and fewer instances where you'll find any efficiency gain from going LCD. And excluding iPhone, you have ample opportunity to go dark to completely obliterate LCD in efficiency. And any video playback will give you increased battery life with OLED.

Video playback isn't the only use for a phone though (in the last decade I've barely watched any video on my phone). And that doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

S8 on a full white screen at max brightness -- 1.75 watts w/ 420 cd/m² on 13.1 inch² display.

6s+ on a full white screen at max brightness -- 1.52 watts w/ 566 cd/m² on 12.9 inch² display. (I used the 6s+ since I wanted something comparable in size to the S8 and they didn't have any newer plus phones, but the 7 (non +) is about the same as the 6 (non +), and brighter).

Then there's the X, which gets quite a bit brighter -- 3.25 watts w/ 634 cd/m² on 12.8 inch² display.

 

http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S8_ShootOut_01.htm

http://www.displaymate.com/iPhone6_ShootOut.htm

http://www.displaymate.com/iPhoneX_ShootOut_1a.htm

 

And looking at the S8 results compared to the S7 results, the S8's screen is about 18% larger and 1.2% brighter and uses 20.5% more power (so it seems to scale with brightness). The X is 51% brighter and 2% smaller than the S8 -- so the X should be 2.6 watts (if the scaling were to continue -- which it doesn't either because scaling naturally drops off as you push the display harder, or there are other changes as well compared to the S8). Regardless, it's 12% brighter than the 6s+ while consuming nearly double the power, the 6s+ is 35% brighter than the S8 while consuming 13% less power.

Quote

Essential PH-1: no top bezel (with camera notch though).

Mi Mix: no top bezel.

G6: small top and bottom bezel.

S8/Note8: small top and bottom bezel.

iPhone X: almost no bezel but huge notch.

HTC U11+: small top and bottom bezel.

LG V30: small top and bottom bezel.

 

So bezels do not correlate with display technology. Rather it's about design and in some cases internal layout. Also, that was two LCD phones without a top bezel. On the other hand, you have Samsung who is without a doubt the best in the game retaining bezels on both top and bottom. They probably have their reasons but it's still noteworthy.

But they all still had a bezel somewhere to house the backlight. So it's very possible that you do still need some bezel if you want to use an LCD. I've tried to figure out how much space is required for either an edge lit backlight or a direct lit backlight, but I've yet to find any meaningful information on that.  

Quote

The issue is you still need a lot of hardware on the front of the phone. Different companies solve it in different ways.

No question, but it's possible that the 'bezeless' design that Apple was aiming for couldn't have been done with an LCD. 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, DildorTheDecent said:

Who knew that a child, that looks like their parent could fool a device right out of the box. 

 

Shit needs to learn yo, oddly that's how machine learning works. Not like anybody bothered themselves to actually see the keynote. Whatever, LTT loves a good Apple bash. 

>Once it knows you. 

In fairness, I'd really like to see some conclusive testing done on this. And if the phone will store any recent face data after a passcode is entered, then that's a problem. It's also a bit of a problem if it takes weeks to learn you (as that becomes inconvenient when you get a new phone or if you have to replace your phone for whatever reason). Although, it does all circle back to the fact that biometrics are still a shitty method of security and are purely convenience -- if security is the focus you should be using a passcode anyway.

[Trixanity]

7 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

Video playback isn't the only use for a phone though (in the last decade I've barely watched any video on my phone). And that doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

S8 on a full white screen at max brightness -- 1.75 watts w/ 420 cd/m² on 13.1 inch² display.

6s+ on a full white screen at max brightness -- 1.52 watts w/ 566 cd/m² on 12.9 inch² display. (I used the 6s+ since I wanted something comparable in size to the S8 and they didn't have any newer plus phones, but the 7 (non +) is about the same as the 6 (non +), and brighter).

Then there's the X, which gets quite a bit brighter -- 3.25 watts w/ 634 cd/m² on 12.8 inch² display.

 

http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S8_ShootOut_01.htm

http://www.displaymate.com/iPhone6_ShootOut.htm

http://www.displaymate.com/iPhoneX_ShootOut_1a.htm

 

And looking at the S8 results compared to the S7 results, the S8's screen is about 18% larger and 1.2% brighter and uses 20.5% more power (so it seems to scale with brightness). The X is 51% brighter and 2% smaller than the S8 -- so the X should be 2.6 watts (if the scaling were to continue -- which it doesn't either because scaling naturally drops off as you push the display harder, or there are other changes as well compared to the S8). Regardless, it's 12% brighter than the 6s+ while consuming nearly double the power, the 6s+ is 35% brighter than the S8 while consuming 13% less power.

But they all still had a bezel somewhere to house the backlight. So it's very possible that you do still need some bezel if you want to use an LCD. I've tried to figure out how much space is required for either an edge lit backlight or a direct lit backlight, but I've yet to find any meaningful information on that.  

No question, but it's possible that the 'bezeless' design that Apple was aiming for couldn't have been done with an LCD. 

I said power consumption at normal brightness. Maximum brightness power consumption, while it should be measured, is a silly metric unless you do nothing but use your phone for hours in direct sunlight outside. It should be measured at around 120 cd/m like other displays are (you need to normalize the results one way or another). Even if we assume that that LCD still uses slightly less power when displaying full white, it's not worth the trade-off as you'll get much better power consumption metrics if you change all your stuff to a dark theme which is very much possible on any Android phone especially if it's running Oreo since it supports OMS out of the box unless the OEM has pulled some shenanigans. I also find it unlikely that you'll be looking at strictly pure white all day even without being able to change themes. So what we're looking at is an attempt to give LCD the best possible scenario and it barely pulls ahead yet it doesn't mention all the advantages you gain which is why OEMs are switching in the first place. It is possible to get almost similar blacks on LCD (as an example) but it's still in the lab and at this point it seems unlikely to make it to market since it'll probably drive up costs and it seems the industry has decided OLED is the future. Also, I'm pretty sure display makers have or are experimenting with white subpixels to put the final nail in the coffin.

 

Of course LCD needs more space but as you say how much is uncertain and I think it's possible to stack the components to avoid the bezels (if not now, research would work around that).

Many people hate the notch however it's possible to do on an LCD (Essential PH-1) but even if it wasn't the case having a small bezel on one side housing the camera, sensors and speakers (although Mi Mix doesn't have a speaker grill because it uses a different type of speaker which apparently kinda sucks) would be acceptable for most, would look less glaring than a notch, would work better with full screen content and gives you more space to house components.

 

There are many arguments against OLED (even from me) but I find the notion of similar or slightly higher power consumption, when displaying white at maximum brightness, being the killing blow for OLED silly. 

[LAwLz]

Love the mental gymnastics from the Apple camp.

First TouchID is the best thing ever because it's was so convenient and fast. Then before even testing it FaceID is hailed as the best thing ever and hyped to be more secure and convenient than TouchID. When evidence starts rolling in that FaceID is worse than TouchID? Just tell people to use passwords instead...

 

Let's face it, removing TouchID and replacing it with FaceID was a terrible move. Stop defending Apple's stupid decisions.

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

When evidence starts rolling in that FaceID is worse than TouchID? Just tell people to use passwords instead

Not there yet, now their just praising the neural network and saying that it'll get better over time. Just fun too watch

[captain_to_fire]

5 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Not there yet, now their just praising the neural network and saying that it'll get better over time. Just fun too watch

As I’ve said in the OP, dissatisfied iPhone X buyers with concerns about Face ID reliability and security should just return it, get a refund and get the iPhone 8 Plus. 

• Same zippy A11 Bionic SoC 
• Same primary rear camera that scored high on DxO Mark 
• iPhone 8 Plus has a bigger battery than the iPhone X hence it’ll last longer 
• No asymmetrical and ugly notch on the 8+
• No new gestures to learn for the 8+. 
• Same IP67 water and dust protection for both phones 
• Touch ID at the moment on the iPhone 8+ is more reliable & seemingly more secure than the iPhone X’s Face ID 
• The 64GB iPhone 8+ ($799) is cheaper than a 64 GB iPhone X ($999) 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by hey_yo_

[Kukielka]

On 15.11.2017 at 2:00 AM, hey_yo_ said:

IPS LCD may not have the same deep blacks and high contrast of OLED but IPS LCD lasts longer. 

 

I think Apple was simply testing out the waters of OLED with the iPhone X but who knows? Maybe Apple’s own color calibration would keep the OLED display last longer. ??‍♂️

In all honesty, who cares about longevity when you buy an Apple product?

These things aren't built to last...

[captain_to_fire]

12 minutes ago, Kukielka said:

In all honesty, who cares about longevity when you buy an Apple product?

These things aren't built to last...

I know a lot of people who are still using iPhone 5s and 6 and they don’t have any issues with the display because it’s using an IPS LCD panel. 

[Kukielka]

11 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

I know a lot of people who are still using iPhone 5s and 6 and they don’t have any issues with the display because it’s using an IPS LCD panel. 

An oled panel survives roughly 100,000h of actual usage which translates into about 11,5 years. The iPhone 5s was released 2013?

Yea I don't think they are surviving "because it’s using an IPS LCD panel".

[captain_to_fire]

4 hours ago, Kukielka said:

An oled panel survives roughly 100,000h of actual usage which translates into about 11,5 years. The iPhone 5s was released 2013?

Yea I don't think they are surviving "because it’s using an IPS LCD panel".

I want to know the source on that claim that an OLED panel survives 100,000 hours. 

[Kukielka]

16 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

I want to know the source on that claim that an OLED panel survives hours. 

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2016/06/133_206377.html

[LLEBTNCJD_its_something]

Yes this can happen, I think using password is a step back and apple should have put fingerprint scanner on power button like Sony and rezer. 

[79wjd]

7 hours ago, Trixanity said:

Many people hate the notch however it's possible to do on an LCD (Essential PH-1) but even if it wasn't the case having a small bezel on one side housing the camera, sensors and speakers (although Mi Mix doesn't have a speaker grill because it uses a different type of speaker which apparently kinda sucks) would be acceptable for most, would look less glaring than a notch, would work better with full screen content and gives you more space to house components.

 

There are many arguments against OLED (even from me) but I find the notion of similar or slightly higher power consumption, when displaying white at maximum brightness, being the killing blow for OLED silly. 

I did specifically mention whites in my initial response for a reason, and a lot of people do like to use a high brightness -- but the point is that even if you lower the brightness OLEDs still aren't necessarily more efficient. And besides, not everyone wants to use a dark theme. 

 

Apple could have cut off the display and made the notch go straight across the top -- thereby not being a notch. That doesn't give you more space for anything or make it work better with full screen content -- you can easily design your app to not use that notch space. But I'd much rather have the little bit of extra space than not since it is just that -- extra space. And while some people certainly have issues with the notch, most of the people complaining about it have never actually used it -- the notch tends to disappear.

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Let's face it, removing TouchID and replacing it with FaceID was a terrible move. Stop defending Apple's stupid decisions.

I'll take FaceID over rear TouchID any day. Sure, TouchID embedded in the screen would have been (mostly) better, however they apparently couldn't do it AND it wouldn't necessarily have the same accuracy/performance has a dedicated home button TouchID anyway. And rear TouchID just sucks.

5 hours ago, hey_yo_ said:

As I’ve said in the OP, dissatisfied iPhone X buyers with concerns about Face ID reliability and security should just return it, get a refund and get the iPhone 8 Plus. 

• iPhone 8 Plus has a bigger battery than the iPhone X hence it’ll last longer 
• No asymmetrical and ugly notch on the 8+
• No new gestures to learn for the 8+. 

The X actually has the larger battery of the two, the notch really isn't an issue an issue for most people who have used it -- you tend to not notice it (the screen-related reason to get the plus is the wider and shorter (16x9 display is better for video content). The gestures make it feel so much faster to navigate and there's a whopping five to remember (swipe up for home, swipe up and to the right for app switcher, swipe right/left along the bottom to quick switch between apps, swipe down from the right for control center, swipe down from anywhere else for notifications).

4 hours ago, Kukielka said:

In all honesty, who cares about longevity when you buy an Apple product?

These things aren't built to last...

My four year old 5s is still running just fine, and is still getting updates.

[captain_to_fire]

22 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

-snip-

I stand corrected on the battery thing. But for the most part, I think people will get a better value with the iPhone 8 Plus which is $200 cheaper but with very identical internal specs. Don’t forget that neither of these phones offer fast charging power bricks out of the box so with the 8+, they can use that $200 to buy a fast charging brick either from Apple or Aukey and still have change to buy something else. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by hey_yo_

[79wjd]

5 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

I stand corrected on the battery thing. But for the most part, I think people will get a better value with the iPhone 8 Plus which is $200 but with very identical internal specs. Don’t forget that neither of these phones offer fast charging power bricks out of the box so with the 8+, they can use that $200 to buy a fast charging brick either from Apple or Aukey and still have change to buy something else. 

Let's be honest though.....There was only one reason to EVER get the X over the 8 Plus (and that reason is still there) -- the similar sized screen in a much smaller body. I've been using my X for a bit under two weeks now and I thought 'well, the smaller size is nice, but the 6s+ wasn't too bad'. Then I switched back to using my 6s+ for a few hours, and it was just so much less comfortable to use because of its size (my hands are on the bigger side too). 

[LAwLz]

29 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

I'll take FaceID over rear TouchID any day. Sure, TouchID embedded in the screen would have been (mostly) better, however they apparently couldn't do it AND it wouldn't necessarily have the same accuracy/performance has a dedicated home button TouchID anyway. And rear TouchID just sucks.

Why not both? How about TouchID on the side?

[captain_to_fire]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why not both? How about TouchID on the side?

I’d rather have the convenience of unlocking my iPhone while it’s laying flat on a table with Touch ID at front which is good when I just want to check for notifications and not to lift my phone. Also, whenever I’m authorizing a payment with my bank or transferring money to someone it feels much more natural that after typing the merchant name or account number and the amount, I’ll put my thumb to the Touch ID in front to authorize transaction, at least for me. 

[79wjd]

12 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why not both? How about TouchID on the side?

Well, Apple has never been the "both" approach company. And on the side would be better than on the back, but still not much better imo. My one complaint with FaceID is that if it does fail, then I have to lock and unlock the phone to get FaceID to try a second unlock attempt -- so that is the same inconvenience as TouchID on the side button. Honestly, I happen to really like FaceID from a convenience standpoint as it does ultimately feel faster since I don't need to reposition my thumb after unlocking (which TouchID embedded in the display would certainly solve as well).

[Mooshi]

^ This is why a fingerprint scanner in the middle rear is the best

[79wjd]

8 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

^ This is why a fingerprint scanner in the middle rear is the best

I'd disagree. I find it awful anywhere on the back. 

[xtroria]

9 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

I'd disagree. I find it awful anywhere on the back. 

Both has it’s plus and minus. On daily basis it’s more of a chore moving your thumb on the button in front rather than on the back.

 

But if your phone is on a table, it’s damn annoying having to lift it up all the time to unlock it