Tim Sweeney believes that Microsoft will harm Steam with Windows 10 updates

[suicidalfranco]

4 minutes ago, AlexTheRose said:

What? Nvidia’s drivers perform great; they’re just proprietary.

 

AMD’s drivers are usable too, they just don’t perform as good. The only retard left is Nouveau really.

Don't know about Nvidia but come on let's be honest: AMD Linux support is just horrible. It's 3 months now that i'm waiting for the driver update that gives me support for OpenGL 4.3 so that i can play Divinity with my 390

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

Sure you can go straight to the source and compile it yourself but it's not really the most straight forward thing to do. 

It does not tend to be difficult to compile from the source for most programs, they tend to be just:

g++ src/*.cpp -o output

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, suicidalfranco said:

Don't know about Nvidia but come on let's be honest: AMD Linux support is just horrible. It's 3 months now that i'm waiting for the driver update that gives me support for OpenGL 4.3 so that i can play Divinity with my 390

Really? Isn't 4.5 out already?

[Guest]

Just now, AlexTheRose said:

More like

./configure
make
sudo make install

 

Yeah, when they come with configure and makefiles it's even easier. I meant ones that don't have that, like this:

https://github.com/vertis/objconv

[suicidalfranco]

3 minutes ago, spidsepttk said:

Really? Isn't 4.5 out already?

still on openGL 3.0 for me

[Guest]

Just now, suicidalfranco said:

still on openGL 3.0 for me

GL 4 came out in 2010. I see the pain you feel.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, Humbug said:

What about the security benefits of UWP such as sandboxing, and the benefit of being able to write one app which runs on multiple device types?

Security - There are benefits and drawbacks. Personally I am leaning more towards the less secure approach because it gives developers and users more freedom. Sure it might be good security wise that one program can't read data from another, but what if I want to create a program that hooks into another one? Then I am shit out of luck because that's "not safe".

 

 

Apps for multiple devices - Only in Microsoft's own ecosystem, and honestly, who cares about Windows Phone (except Microsoft and Microsoft fanboys)? Microsoft is only trying to use it to bridge the app-gap between Windows phone and Android/iOS. I am not sure about you, but I don't want iFart on my Windows 10 PC. Besides, Microsoft seems like they will still limit it to only a few things. They were pretty quick to clarify that they did not say all their future titles would be coming to the PC.

So far I have not found a single UWP program that beats the best Win32 counterpart. Since I don't use Windows Phone (any neither does anyone else judging by the sales numbers), and Microsoft will not release all Xbone games for the PC despite UWP, so I won't benefit from it being one of the most pathetic excuses for "cross-platform compatibility" I have ever seen.

[manikyath]

18 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

They perform 10 to 15% worst than Windows drivers on Maxwell (and soon Pascal only probably) Try Kepler for example and you'll probably run into flatout crashes or unusable system on Ubuntu or Mint: they're that bad.

 

AMD's not any better really. I have no idea why would you call that "perform great".

i'd dare to bet at least part of the problem is X being an ancient piece of software that needs replacement yesterday.

 

EDIT: X has had something along the lines of 5-10 major releases since its launch in 1984, and is in base function still identical. you're basicly trying to strap a GTX970 to a machine running an infinitely updated windows 3.1

[Misanthrope]

10 minutes ago, manikyath said:

i'd dare to bet at least part of the problem is X being an ancient piece of software that needs replacement yesterday.

 

EDIT: X has had something along the lines of 5-10 major releases since its launch in 1984, and is in base function still identical. you're basicly trying to strap a GTX970 to a machine running an infinitely updated windows 3.1

Maybe but Linux distros would be open to adapt a replacement for xorg I'm sure. But I'm surprised xorg goes back to 1984 seeing how they were no GUI systems at all back then, don't you mean 1994?

[Humbug]

32 minutes ago, AlexTheRose said:

You need to understand something about the organisations backing Linux. While I’m sure Canonical and other non-classical fronts of the Linux community would be open to the idea of supporting gaming, older and larger organisations such as Debian, Red Hat, and other base distributions will be staunchly against the idea of pioneering video games unless the insane happened and all of these game companies decided to make their games FOSS.

Thing is over the last year I have messed around with a few different debian based and Ubuntu based distros.

On all of them I went to the steampowered website, installed steam and was able to play the Linux library without issue as long as I updated to the correct GPU drivers. So even though devs may be porting their games targeting steamOS, users such as myself of other linux distros are benefiting. So the distro makers themselves may not actively support gaming. But if they are making a push for Linux desktop the fact that gaming is viable on thier platform helps them, maybe it's not the most important factor but it is one factor.

[manikyath]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

Maybe but Linux distros would be open to adapt a replacement for xorg I'm sure. But I'm surprised xorg goes back to 1984 seeing how they were no GUI systems at all back then, don't you mean 1994?

it was originally developed in 1984.

 

and as for replacements, there's two of them, who seemingly never seem to ship, which bryan lunduke loves to make fun of

[patrick3027]

3 hours ago, sof006 said:

And then people would move to Linux and Microsoft will have shot themselves in the foot.

 

This wont happen.

That's what people have been saying for years. 

 

After the Windows Vista debacle, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After the Windows 8 debacle, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After support for Windows XP stopped, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After the Windows 10 privacy concerns appeared, people said customers would move to Linux.

 

It pains me to say this as a long time Linux user and Linux fanboy, but Windows is here to day, no matter how much M$ fucks up. 

[manikyath]

4 minutes ago, AlexTheRose said:

The only sensible replacement around for X.org is Wayland, really. And ironically enough the main reason people haven’t switched from X.org to Wayland is the same reason people haven’t switched from Windows to GNU/Linux – everything already works with X.org, things are built around it and it’s low-level enough to be a hassle to replace were its public API to be broken.

 

And besides, X.org is still actively maintained. There’s little reason to replace it anyway, for that reason.

winzip is also still in active development

[Misanthrope]

31 minutes ago, patrick3027 said:

That's what people have been saying for years. 

 

After the Windows Vista debacle, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After the Windows 8 debacle, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After support for Windows XP stopped, people said customers would move to Linux. 

After the Windows 10 privacy concerns appeared, people said customers would move to Linux.

 

It pains me to say this as a long time Linux user and Linux fanboy, but Windows is here to day, no matter how much M$ fucks up. 

Aye: Everyone has been expecting people to move to Linux but nobody's doing a damn thing to address the driver situation, to make distros more user friendly, etc. Even decent attempts like Ubuntu end up falling sort due to either pointless adherence to Free Software rhetoric ("We refuse to ship closed sourced drivers, instead we must ask if people want them even though most new comers have no fucking clue what we're talking about") and bitter in fighting (We're not using Gnome anymore because fuck logic, this shitty Unity thing is the future! Cause I'm Mark fucking Shuttleworth biatch!!") and things they honestly could not foresee wouldn't pan out at all ("Let's invest a bunch of our time and resources into turning our functional OS into a mobile friendly OS with an app store!")

 

But the end result is that people have been trained for years to use Windows. If you wanna lure them away, you don't have to match Windows you have to surpass it in user friendliness and convenience.

[Misanthrope]

1 minute ago, AlexTheRose said:

Linux is centered around free and open source software. If you’d like a distro that just bastardizes the kernel to pander to gamers, you should probably look at SteamOS as it’s your best bet: Corporate-backed, built for entertainment, no “pointless adherence to Free Software rhetoric”, and arguably better support for games than any other OS besides Windows.

Actually Valve had a damn good chance at making a far bigger impact with their push, but alas they were unable to break old bad habits, namely Valve time: they literally sat on fucking ass for almost a full year and let all the great enthusiasm and support from hardware vendors fizzle out because they were too busy fucking around with a stupid fucking controller instead of delivering Steam OS in a timely matter to take advantage of the momentum.

[Sauron]

Yes Microsoft, go ahead, remove retrocompatibility and kill the only thing that makes Windows worth using so the world can move on to Linux or BSD.

[manikyath]

2 minutes ago, AlexTheRose said:

And your point is? Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s inherently bad. X.org does not hold back display driver performence, if that’s what you’re thinking.

Linux is centered around free and open source software. If you’d like a distro that just bastardizes the kernel to pander to gamers, you should probably look at SteamOS as it’s your best bet: Corporate-backed, built for entertainment, no “pointless adherence to Free Software rhetoric”, and arguably better support for games than any other OS besides Windows.

 

A lot of people still care about free and open source software though, and it isn’t just to deny them that by molesting something previously FOSS. It is best to keep proprietary distributions of Linux OSes separate from the FOSS scene if it really must happen. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

well, i'm not directly claiming it's "holding it back" but running a monolith from 1984 certainly cant be a good thing for modernization.

--

the free software thing is honestly a mixed feeling. while i certainly agree that some pieces of software are getting "a tad too proprietary" some others have good reason to be. a very good example is actually adobe's software suite. while having proprietary file formats is a questionable move, i understand why their code is hidden from public and a closely guarded secret: its the secret sauce that makes adobe great. if they'd go open source, that'd mean competitors can "steal" their ideas, everyone and their dog can just compile from source without giving adobe a dime, and "piracy" would be off the charts.

result: adobe doesnt have the budget it would have had if it was closed source, so they have less money for developers, meaning their software isnt as good. the truth is for simple programs (which basicly, linux is a large collections of simple programs that make an OS) its an idea that somehow works, but unfortunately the bigger software suites would not be as amazing as they are now with big corporations with a strong buisiness model behind it.

 

ask yourself this: if free software was such a clear solution, why doesnt everyone use gimp?

(i personally use gimp, i have learned my ways around it, but i certainly understand why my local photographer is running the adobe suite, and why he gladly tosses the money at said abobe suite)

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, manikyath said:

ask yourself this: if free software was such a clear solution, why doesnt everyone use gimp?

(i personally use gimp, i have learned my ways around it, but i certainly understand why my local photographer is running the adobe suite, and why he gladly tosses the money at said abobe suite)

Because is lousy and hard to use vs Photoshop.

 

A better analogy would be "Why doesn't everybody uses Redhat" to which you'd have to answer millions actually do use Redhat.They have a successful business model out of selling the support, not the OS itself.

[AlTech]

3 hours ago, NinjaJc01 said:

People buy windows phones because they are cheapish, then they realise that they're awful. The point I was making with that statement was the lack of programs/apps.

No. People buy them because generally they tend to be quite good and Windows 10 Mobile is great.

 

3 hours ago, spidsepttk said:

yeah, and that's exactly what will happen. No developers except for crappy mobile game people will make games for this new architecture.

Actually, any game development studio who cares about their long term strategy will take notes and launch their UWP game at one point in the future.

[Guest]

Just now, AluminiumTech said:

No. People buy them because generally they tend to be quite good and Windows 10 Mobile is great.

 

Actually, any game development studio who cares about their long term strategy will take notes and launch their UWP game at one point in the future.

No, they wont unless if it is really easy to make it support that and WIN32. Game companies only tend to care about the platform that would bring the most money, its the reason why half of my 100 game steam library works on my linux machine.

[Notional]

3 hours ago, Humbug said:

Valve is doing the sensible thing as far as their business is concerned by spreading some of their risk to Linux. Right now they can afford to throw money at it, from their point of view if they lose the windows market one day at least they can downsize and continue to operate their store on mac OSX and Linux. 

 

the 3rd party steam machines have failed so far, but what Valve has succeeded in doing is exponentially increasing the availability of games on linux. It's now a viable gaming platform and I myself game a lot on it with a good experience, which was impossible before. They have managed to do this by establishing steamOS as a target platform for porting and investing a lot into things like dev tools and developer know how. they even invested a lot in Vulkan which will have an impact on future linux gaming performance, ease of porting etc. So what they have been able to do so far is get linux users to start buying more games and be excited about gaming.

 

What they have NOT been able to do is expand Linux market share. And I think that battle is not something Valve can fight. It's upto the Linux desktop distributions like Ubuntu and Mint and Debian etc to push their desktop market share. That involves a strong marketing push and bundling with prebuilts computers etc. They can for the first time utilize the fact that linux is a viable gaming platform, but that's not the only reason people prefer windows. The non-gaming related issues of linux will have to be tackled by these organizations if they want to challenge windows desktop. So far they have failed in that, if they continue to fail then linux steam gaming will also continue to be a niche.

Whoops forgot to answer.

 

Yeah, I completely get Valve's move. Being 100% dependent on a platform you have no influence on, and that can work as a competitor is a dangerous long term scenario. The problem is that Valve freaked out on MS without reason back with W8, and then tried to make an alternative with the industry's worst graphics API on it. It was way too early and way too little. They should have had patience and worked with AMD to get Mantle to Vulkan faster, or at least wait until now. As things are now, SteamOS is DOA. Even on Valve's own platform, Steam, the market share of Linux is under 1%, which is ridiculous.

 

Linux is not a consumer OS, and never has been. For linux to ever be useful as a consumer OS, it needs fewer distro's, actually just 1 that everyone then uses. It needs a much better gui, to work, and be fixable without ever mentioning the word "console", and needs to be infinitely better at fixing itself, just like Windows is today. People uses computers as a tool, and wants PC's to work for them, not the other way around. That necessitates an OS that can manage itself with the absolute minimum effort from the user. I don't see that happening for at least another 10 years, if ever. There simply isn't enough money to go around in the semi marxist based OS.

 

As things are now, OSX is a more viable platform for a gaming alternative than Linux. 

[manikyath]

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Because is lousy and hard to use vs Photoshop.

exactly. and why is that so? because photoshop runs off of a big corp that makes the software powerful, easy to use, and available. adobe doesnt charge you large amounts of money "randomly" for their software, it's because that's what they need to make their software so awesome.

[AlTech]

Just now, AlexTheRose said:

Considering our group is developing for the Nintendo 3DS, I really doubt that.

 

I wonder what @christianled59 thinks about UWP…

But who uses a 3DS?

 

Over 350 Million people use Windows 10 and can take advantage UWP.

[manikyath]

2 minutes ago, AlexTheRose said:

-snip-

how did this turn into getting wood for specific people?

 

also, i just told you where i found my balance, didnt i?

[AlTech]

8 minutes ago, spidsepttk said:

No, they wont unless if it is really easy to make it support that and WIN32. Game companies only tend to care about the platform that would bring the most money, its the reason why half of my 100 game steam library works on my linux machine.

I'm sorry but you said contradictory things in the same sentence.