(SPONSORED) What the heck is a GAMING SERVER??

[JonoT]

 

Thanks to Shadow for sponsoring today's video! Check them out at https://lmg.gg/c2eqf

 

Cloud gaming is getting more popular, and we're not strangers in how they work, but have you actually thought about what the hardware looks like when you play games or whatever on them? We convinced Shadow to send us one of their units, and they actually agreed to it... I hope they knew what they were agreeing to.

[gloop]

It’s a server with RGB, duh. 

[Kanna]

Sounds like something my friend could buy he think everything with gaming makes it better, what's next gaming cpu coolers oh wait /s

[Boomwebsearch]

17 minutes ago, Kanna said:

Sounds like something my friend could buy he think everything with gaming makes it better, what's next gaming cpu coolers oh wait

 

Gaming CPUs and Gaming CPU Coolers :

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/resources/gaming-cpu.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/resources/gaming-processor-names.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1558670-REG/intel_bx8070110900_core_i9_10900_processor_20m.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4ff49KTh6gIVsuy1Ch1OUApZEAQYAiABEgKkMfD_BwE

 

https://www.amazon.com/Gammaxx-GT-BK/dp/B074P3JCXX/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=gaming+cpu+cooler&qid=1595435751&sr=8-15

https://www.amazon.com/DEEPCOOL-GAMMAXX400V2-Cooler-Heatpipes-Compatible/dp/B081DH9RRJ/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=deepcool+cpu+cooler&qid=1595435798&sr=8-5

 

Interesting to see gaming hardware and server hardware come together, great video LinusTechTips!

[Kanna]

5 minutes ago, Boomwebsearch said:

 

Gaming CPUs and Gaming CPU Coolers :

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/resources/gaming-cpu.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/resources/gaming-processor-names.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1558670-REG/intel_bx8070110900_core_i9_10900_processor_20m.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4ff49KTh6gIVsuy1Ch1OUApZEAQYAiABEgKkMfD_BwE

 

https://www.amazon.com/Gammaxx-GT-BK/dp/B074P3JCXX/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=gaming+cpu+cooler&qid=1595435751&sr=8-15

https://www.amazon.com/DEEPCOOL-GAMMAXX400V2-Cooler-Heatpipes-Compatible/dp/B081DH9RRJ/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=deepcool+cpu+cooler&qid=1595435798&sr=8-5

 

Interesting to see gaming hardware and server hardware come together, great video LinusTechTips!

wasn't clear then sorry

[Nystemy]

The 12V power input is something that has for a long time boggled my mind... Like this is done all over the place.
Adding in a decent buck converter on the power distribution board could make it able to run on a more reasonable 20-40 volt, making any voltage drops between the actual power supply and the system components less problematic. And such a buck converter isn't really something that is going to take up lots of room for that matter. _{(and this server has plenty of room, so that isn't an issue. And power efficiency wise, the overall system could actually get more efficient, not to mention cost effective, due to not needing as much copper for carrying the current.)}

Otherwise the system seems rather decent, but I do wonder if a regular blade center would have been a nicer solution, due to including everything for both networking and storage in one box. I know that HP's blade centers even have support for off the shelf graphics cards. _{(though, ones meant to run in a server is still recommended due to how the cooling works.)}

Downside with blade centers is their higher cost. (since blade centers are built for density, not really price to performance.)

 

How it compares to normal servers is also a curious question, though the method they have used to put this together is somewhat nice.

Been looking at one of those Gigabyte board myself, though for workstation use instead...

[Weeeeems]

Despite having sub 10ms pings with both their Chicago and NY services, unfortunately cannot sign up for Shadow from Toronto. How frustrating!

 

They require a numeric zip code for the payment process too so no way to 'trick' it easily.

[Nathanpete]

I'm not into server hardware that much, but does anyone know what CPU and GPUs they are using in the server rack? Especially the CPU. I would think that they would be using a Xeon since it has the comparable gaming performance as their mainstream i9s and others, especially since I think the max they said was two 6 core users and one 4 core user. At only 16 cores total then, an extra 2 cores for the virtualization overhead and u have an 18 core xeon. But the low clock speeds makes me think it is either a threadripper or EPYC. Knowing which GPUs they use is also cool. 

 

Also the netboot in BIOS makes me think that we each get a copy of windows 10, but it is just a copy of a standard image, but then again it is virtualized. I also really am interested in how they keep user's data saved. Is it like a standard version of Win 10 1909 and then a literal save state with all your documents and OS changes that gets imported onto a generic win 10 copy upon logging in? Like if I change a setting in windows, steam, or something else, when I log back into shadow can I expect those changes to still exist?

 

IDK why linus was so impressed with the controller inputs. You just take the raw controller inputs as a binary and stream it to the game servers where it then creates a virtual controller for steam and uses the raw inputs as the source. 

[Nystemy]

17 minutes ago, Nathanpete said:

I'm not into server hardware that much, but does anyone know what CPU and GPUs they are using in the server rack? Especially the CPU. I would think that they would be using a Xeon since it has the comparable gaming performance as their mainstream i9s and others, especially since I think the max they said was two 6 core users and one 4 core user. At only 16 cores total then, an extra 2 cores for the virtualization overhead and u have an 18 core xeon. But the low clock speeds makes me think it is either a threadripper or EPYC. Knowing which GPUs they use is also cool. 

 

Also the netboot in BIOS makes me think that we each get a copy of windows 10, but it is just a copy of a standard image, but then again it is virtualized. I also really am interested in how they keep user's data saved. Is it like a standard version of Win 10 1909 and then a literal save state with all your documents and OS changes that gets imported onto a generic win 10 copy upon logging in? Like if I change a setting in windows, steam, or something else, when I log back into shadow can I expect those changes to still exist?

 

IDK why linus was so impressed with the controller inputs. You just take the raw controller inputs as a binary and stream it to the game servers where it then creates a virtual controller for steam and uses the raw inputs as the source. 

I don't know the exact CPU/GPU they use. But both Intel and AMD do offer rather high core clock speed server CPUs, though I would be suspecting it being an EPYC due to the board having 8 dim slots. _{(EPYC has 8 memory channels, Intel's LGA3647 only has 6. So it would be weird for the board to have 2 slots for only 2 of the channels, I would expect 6 or 12 slots, not 8. Unless they use those fancy storage dims, but Linus explicitly mentioned both 64 GB and that there were 8 GB modules, and that the server doesn't have any storage...)}

But in regards to hosting the actual user data/settings. A simple method of doing this is to just make a virtual machine, store that whole machine on a storage array and simply tell a node to fire it up when the user wants to log in. The storage for the user data and the whole virtual machine is just somewhere else in the data center, linked to the computing node by typically an FC HBA card, or using iSCSI over the normal network.

In short, we just run a windows license on a VM, and run that VM on the "nearest" available hardware. As long as all computing nodes are "identical", then Windows won't have a clue. And if a user decides to terminate their account, one simply wipes the data and do a factory reset of the OS, and then just carry it on to the next user waiting in line. _{(of course one will have a whole bunch of VMs set up ahead of time so that new users can just join.)}

 

Also, streaming inputs over a network interface is actually a bit less trivial than it might seem at first. Typically one would use a UDP network link, so that one isn't chugging due to prior packets being "slower"/lost. And then typically resend each command for a few consecutive packages, in case a UDP package gets lost. _{(UDP unlike TCP won't retry sending lost packages, not that it even knows that the package got lost, nor even preserve package order, or do handshakes at all... UDP is practically just chucking packages out a window and hoping someone is there to catch it.)} So to get it to just "work" flawlessly is actually a bit impressive, since a lot of developers implements things rather poorly in this regard...

[GodAtum]

no use for us in canada 

[Nathanpete]

1 hour ago, Nystemy said:

I don't know the exact CPU/GPU they use. But both Intel and AMD do offer rather high core clock speed server CPUs, though I would be suspecting it being an EPYC due to the board having 8 dim slots. _{(EPYC has 8 memory channels, Intel's LGA3647 only has 6. So it would be weird for the board to have 2 slots for only 2 of the channels, I would expect 6 or 12 slots, not 8. Unless they use those fancy storage dims, but Linus explicitly mentioned both 64 GB and that there were 8 GB modules, and that the server doesn't have any storage...)}

But in regards to hosting the actual user data/settings. A simple method of doing this is to just make a virtual machine, store that whole machine on a storage array and simply tell a node to fire it up when the user wants to log in. The storage for the user data and the whole virtual machine is just somewhere else in the data center, linked to the computing node by typically an FC HBA card, or using iSCSI over the normal network.

In short, we just run a windows license on a VM, and run that VM on the "nearest" available hardware. As long as all computing nodes are "identical", then Windows won't have a clue. And if a user decides to terminate their account, one simply wipes the data and do a factory reset of the OS, and then just carry it on to the next user waiting in line. _{(of course one will have a whole bunch of VMs set up ahead of time so that new users can just join.)}

 

Also, streaming inputs over a network interface is actually a bit less trivial than it might seem at first. Typically one would use a UDP network link, so that one isn't chugging due to prior packets being "slower"/lost. And then typically resend each command for a few consecutive packages, in case a UDP package gets lost. _{(UDP unlike TCP won't retry sending lost packages, not that it even knows that the package got lost, nor even preserve package order, or do handshakes at all... UDP is practically just chucking packages out a window and hoping someone is there to catch it.)} So to get it to just "work" flawlessly is actually a bit impressive, since a lot of developers implements things rather poorly in this regard...

Wait a sec, i don't wanna rewatch the video, but I thought linus said up to 3 users per server, and they would each get their dedicated dual channel memory, totalling 16 GB, which is perfect for gaming. (rewatched a little bit, the CPU has a 6 channel memory controller), but it still has 64GB of ram. 

 

So do you have to individually license each user's VM (until termination, saving money), or do you just use the same license over an over bc windows won't know the difference bc the hardware config is identical. (Or does shadow have to use 3 licenses bc there's a difference in how the hardware is divvied up based on what tier you buy. I bet windows licenses aren't where most of the spending is going to though.)

[Nystemy]

6 minutes ago, Nathanpete said:

Wait a sec, i don't wanna rewatch the video, but I thought linus said up to 3 users per server, and they would each get their dedicated dual channel memory, totalling 16 GB, which is perfect for gaming. (rewatched a little bit, the CPU has a 6 channel memory controller), but it still has 64GB of ram. 

 

So do you have to individually license each user's VM (until termination, saving money), or do you just use the same license over an over bc windows won't know the difference bc the hardware config is identical. (Or does shadow have to use 3 licenses bc there's a difference in how the hardware is divvied up based on what tier you buy. I bet windows licenses aren't where most of the spending is going to though.)

Well, with a VM you license the windows installation to the VM. The OS doesn't actually see the real hardware, so as far as windows is concerned, it always runs in the same environment, despite it likely starting on a new set of hardware each time it "boots". So yes you will need 1 license per subscribed user. But a windows license can be reused if the user terminates their subscription, since we can just "factory reset" that VM and hand it to the next user in line.

 

And yes, a server running 3 VMs will need to have 3 licenses in this case. Though, the license is for the VM, not the actual hardware, so all the currently inactive VMs out in the storage will also have licenses. (one can think of a VM a bit like a laptop, we can put it on a shelf and not use it, or drag it out onto our desk and use it, but in this case our desk is a server in a rack, and our shelf is a storage array somewhere else in our data center.)

But the cost of the windows license isn't a major deal to fiddle with to be fair, and Shadow can likely get some bulk deal from Microsoft, or other B2B cost structure to make this largely a non issue to a degree.

And to clear it up a bit, it seems to be a Gigabyte MU71-SU0 motherboard, so its is running a Xeon W something or other. And the board does have the frankly bizarre setup where 2 of the channels have 2 dim slots while the other 4 channels have only 1...

[zENjA]

I've a shadow since they started. The streaming quality is ok, but I've found several downsides for me:

- my Hardware have no hardware decode for it - min. Intel Core i 3000 Series needed

- to less ram & cpu for workloads without GPU support

- single monitor support

- mouse support on iOS

- no IPv6 Support

I've also get the ghost, yes it's ok, but a base i3 NUC is more versitale - I just need a min. 3 Monitors at 1440p.

I think it's a grade service for 95% of gamers (with the right internet uplink), but I'm to much of a heavy user.(I just have 3 GPUs in my System ATI v7900 just for 4x1440p, GTX1060 3x1440p to do stuff, RTX2070super 1x1440p for compute & to less gaming at the moment - It's all on a P9D-WS - compute is handeled by real servers in my garage rack)

[RyanFromShadow]

7 hours ago, Weeeeems said:

Despite having sub 10ms pings with both their Chicago and NY services, unfortunately cannot sign up for Shadow from Toronto. How frustrating!

 

They require a numeric zip code for the payment process too so no way to 'trick' it easily.

Unfortunately yes and with no timeline yet when we might expand services to Canada. We're hopeful to expand there someday, and will shout from the mountains when we news to share.

[igormp]

That service is really cheap, and they seem to be working on making linux available for it. Is there some limitation on the type of workload or amount of hours per month that you can use it? I couldn't find anything on their site about that.

 

A GPU offering for such price is a steal. Your regular Cloud provider usually offers a GPU for $1~3/hour.

 

tagging @RyanFromShadow for hopeful answers.

[RyanFromShadow]

1 hour ago, igormp said:

That service is really cheap, and they seem to be working on making linux available for it. Is there some limitation on the type of workload or amount of hours per month that you can use it? I couldn't find anything on their site about that.

 

A GPU offering for such price is a steal. Your regular Cloud provider usually offers a GPU for $1~3/hour.

 

tagging @RyanFromShadow for hopeful answers.

We support Ubuntu 18.04, and we don't have a limitation on how much you can use the service.

[igormp]

2 minutes ago, RyanFromShadow said:

We support Ubuntu 18.04

I meant as the OS running inside my Shadow instance, not the client PC. Is Ubuntu available in this case?

Quote

and we don't have a limitation on how much you can use the service.

Awesome!!

[RyanFromShadow]

21 hours ago, igormp said:

I meant as the OS running inside my Shadow instance, not the client PC. Is Ubuntu available in this case?

Awesome!!

Ahh, thanks for clarifying! No, unfortunately we don't offer Linux as the OS for your Shadow nor have any timeline for that. That being said, I've learned to never underestimate our devs  

[igormp]

29 minutes ago, RyanFromShadow said:

Ahh, thanks for clarifying! No, unfortunately we don't offer Linux as the OS for your Shadow nor have any timeline for that. That being said, I've learned to never underestimate our devs  

Thanks for the reply! Is there any channel where I could get updated whenever support for linux lands? Such a machine at that price would be a dream for ML people, and latency wouldn't even be a problem in this scenario 

[RyanFromShadow]

1 hour ago, igormp said:

Thanks for the reply! Is there any channel where I could get updated whenever support for linux lands? Such a machine at that price would be a dream for ML people, and latency wouldn't even be a problem in this scenario 

Our Discord, Reddit, and Community forum are great places for discussions about Linux and Shadow, from discussing feature ideas to the Shadow Linux app itself. 

[JamesAdams]

 I have never seen this kind of riser pci express someone yes ? 

[Hydrag]

What I'm wondering about is, although they say the GPU experience is equivalent to let's say a GTX 1080 for the cheapest package, Linus still showed here that they run Quadro Graphics cards. Does that mean that the Shadow user will get benefits of Quadro Drivers when running a virtual machine from them? You know Quadro Driver supports like improvements in some softwares like Solidworks or I think some of the creator aspects of HDR are limited to the use of Quadro Drivers (HDR in open gl applications vs directx,if this is still the case for NVidia). Because then this would be an interesting and cheap option to use for let's say rendering or heavy calculations...