Dumb question on mini vs micro led

[Bombastinator]

So I just watched the latest tech quickie and was left with an impression that may not be correct so I’d like to get clear if possible.

 

what I am given to understand is there is LED, micro LED, OLED, and now mini LED

 

i origionally thought that a LED monitor was a LED array with nothing else.  This is incorrect?  The impression I got was an LED monitor is an LCD monitor with local dimming.  What I thought of as LED is actually what OLED and microLED do.  MiniLED is still not that but instead is LCD with much better local dimming.

 

at issue is size.  Could miniLEDs be used to make a chunky microLED display? Say 27”x1080p? Or is that still the provenance of microLED?

 

Or do I just have this all messed up?

[netherportal2]

This isn't really my area of expertise but I think it would be possible if they could shrink Mini-Led's down further. From what I heard though Mini-Led's are white, bright led's for backlights on displays, but I might be wrong about all of this.

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

An LED monitor in current parlance means an LCD that uses LEDs as the backlight, instead of cold-cathode fluorescent lamps. This breaks down into two types: edge lit and array lit. Edge lit has a row of LEDs on the edge of the panel and a diffuse layer distributes the light. Array lit has an array of LEDs behind the LCD panel that lights up sections of the LCD. MiniLEDs from what I can gather are used to make array lit LED displays have more sections.

 

microLEDs seems to be looked at to specifically use the LED as the complete display element like OLED, rather than using it as another backlight source for LCDs, even though you can still do that. My gut feeling is the mainstream will be white microLEDs used as backlights for LCDs, because it's easier to make.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Mira Yurizaki
Messed up Micro/MiniLED thing

[Bombastinator]

So taking @Mira Yurizaki’s explanation as definitive the claims of long life mad for LED panels was that edge style LED backlights were much longer lived than cold cathode backlights.  How does service life compare with  array LED, and now apparently array miniLED backlights?  

 

To say that again, apparently there is:

-cathode backlight LCD (poor service life?)

-edge LED backlight LCD 

-array LED backlight LCD

-array QLED backlight LCD 

-array miniLED backlight LCD

-OLED (poor service life)

-microLED 

 

My primary interest is a monitor that won’t wear out.  I’m less interested in picture quality than service life.   Which do I actually want and how long will it last?

[Mira Yurizaki]

25 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

So taking @Mira Yurizaki’s explanation as definitive the claims of long life mad for LED panels was that edge style LED backlights were much longer lived than cold cathode backlights.  How does service life compare with  array LED, and now apparently array miniLED backlights?  

 

To say that again, apparently there is:

-cathode backlight LCD (poor service life?)

-edge LED backlight LCD 

-array LED backlight LCD

-array QLED backlight LCD 

-array miniLED backlight LCD

-OLED (poor service life)

-microLED 

 

My primary interest is a monitor that won’t wear out.  I’m less interested in picture quality than service life.   Which do I actually want and how long will it last?

Any LED based solution will theoretically last the longest, but longevity depends on how you use it. All the OLED displays I've used work just fine even after years of use because I don't crank up the brightness on those things.

[Bombastinator]

36 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Any LED based solution will theoretically last the longest, but longevity depends on how you use it. All the OLED displays I've used work just fine even after years of use because I don't crank up the brightness on those things.

I’m reminded of one more that I forgot. Maybe. I think.  At first there was “LCD” which was black and whit with a cathode backlight. Then there were various kinds of “color LCDs” which were “LCDs” but with various ways to do color.

 

The problem with LCD in general is it’s a kind of weird technology which while digital in character is very analog in production.  Basically they wipe a piece of glass with a piece of velvet.  There was I vaguely recall, a tech that was supposed to get rid of this that was originally called “LED”. It was like microLED, in that there was no LCD, but with larger LEDs and they came in three colors.  They were lit in various combinations and levels to together produce color.  This was hailed as being vastly longer life and removing the analog element from production.  They apparently no longer exist?

 

im not buying the long life OLED thing.  Sure, they last longer than a couple years. So do cathode backlights.  The impression I get is that they last a lot LESS long than cathode backlights, and cathode backlights apparently already had a longevity problem.  If cathode backlights weren’t good enough how could OLED not be worse?

 

If the “LED” panel I talked about ever existed then using the term “LED” for edge or array backlit LCD is crap.  It’s not true.  Marketing BS.

 

Did this not-so-mini/micro color LED array panel ever happen?  How long did it last?  How long do the various kinds of LCD panels last?

 

I don’t need the “best” quality.  I just want something that works, is cheap, and won’t wear out.

[SolarNova]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

So I just watched the latest tech quickie and was left with an impression that may not be correct so I’d like to get clear if possible.

 

what I am given to understand is there is LED, micro LED, OLED, and now mini LED

 

i origionally thought that a LED monitor was a LED array with nothing else.  This is incorrect?  The impression I got was an LED monitor is an LCD monitor with local dimming.  What I thought of as LED is actually what OLED and microLED do.  MiniLED is still not that but instead is LCD with much better local dimming.

 

at issue is size.  Could miniLEDs be used to make a chunky microLED display? Say 27”x1080p? Or is that still the provenance of microLED?

 

Or do I just have this all messed up?

Confusion is from marketing. Here is how LCD technology has progressed. Im not great at explaining things so bare with me.

 

LCD technology uses a mechanical movement of microscopic mechanisms controlling the amount of light allowed through a layer of colored filters. the light itself is produced by backlights.

 

 

To start we had LCD. These were CCFL LCD, backlight by 'cold-cathode fluorescent lamp' tube back lights.  No local dimming.

 

Then the CCFL backlights were replaced with LEDs, these new LCD displays were marketed as LED displays. they were in fact still LCD displays, just with LED backlights. This is what the vast majority of LCD displays are today.

Local dimming varied from none, to basic columns or rows of dimming zones, to full array local dimming zones.

 

 

Mini LED displays are LCD displays with arrays of smaller LED backlights ('mini LEDs') rather than ur traditional larger LED backlights. These can have many more zones of local dimming.

 

MicroLED are displays that replace the traditional LCD pixel and the LED backlights with micro sized LEDs for individual pixels, Allowing for pixel level dimming.

 

Dual Cell LCD aka 'ULED XD' . Unique to Hisense TV's , this brand new technology uses a traditional ,but VERY bright, backlit black and white 1920x1080 LCD panel to backlight another full color 4k LCD panel, effectively resulting in 2million local dimming zones.

 

OLED. These are pixel sized organic based LEDs using organic based chemicals to produce color and light rather than mechanical basis of producing light used in LCD. These have pixel level dimming, and near instant response times.

 

QD / Quantom Dot.  Is a filter layer used to better filter light to the correct colors allowing for better color range and accruacy. LCDs with this tech often are called QLED.

 

Both LCD and OLED use sample and hold techniques for displaying images. This means each frame is produced then held fur the duration of the frame. This results in persistence blur, hence why even though OLED has instant response time u will still notice blur.

However BFI (Black frame insertion) can be used to simulated oldschool CRT flicker to remove persistence blur.

In LCD display BFI needs to be synchronized with the backlight frequency to avoid strobe crosstalk which is where a moving images appears to have duplicates of it trailing behind caused by the LED backlight flicker frequency not matching up with the frequency of the frames produced by the LCD.

OLED however does not have this issues as the entire pixel which produce both light and color is what is 'flickering' thus no synchronization to be had.

 

Prior to all these were Plasma displays, they were at smallest 42" and limited to TV's. They introduced 'pixels' to displays , maintained per pixel dimming, had great contrast and colors and had instant, what we now call, 'pixel response times' but were hot and high power usage, they suffered from burn in, were heavy, but not as bulky as the previous technology.

 

Prior to Plasma were CRT. These were the big box displays. Commonly used displays generally had a maximum size of ~37" for TVs, massive hulking things that required multiple people to carry. Monitors commonly went down to 14" for PC use that were still heavy for their size. CRT monitors generally topped out at 22". They had brilliant color, contrast, black levels, did not have 'pixels', could vary their resolution and refresh rate and had instantaneous 'response times'. In terms of pure picture quality the technologies that followed CRT were downgrades, many 'retro' gaming enthusiast still prefer CRT for use with such systems, and those lucky enough to own the best CRTs made at the end of the techs life still hold displays that beat the majority of modern displays. The legendary 22" 16:10 Sony GDM-FW900 is the most well known example.

 

 

Hope this helps

[Bombastinator]

48 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

Confusion is from marketing. Here is how LCD technology has progressed. Im not great at explaining things so bare with me.

 

LCD technology uses a mechanical movement of microscopic mechanisms controlling the amount of light allowed through a layer of colored filters. the light itself is produced by backlights.

 

 

To start we had LCD. These were CCFL LCD, backlight by 'cold-cathode fluorescent lamp' tube back lights.  No local dimming.

 

Then the CCFL backlights were replaced with LEDs, these new LCD displays were marketed as LED displays. they were in fact still LCD displays, just with LED backlights. This is what the vast majority of LCD displays are today.

Local dimming varied from none, to basic columns or rows of dimming zones, to full array local dimming zones.

 

 

Mini LED displays are LCD displays with arrays of smaller LED backlights ('mini LEDs') rather than ur traditional larger LED backlights. These can have many more zones of local dimming.

 

MicroLED are displays that replace the traditional LCD pixel and the LED backlights with micro sized LEDs for individual pixels, Allowing for pixel level dimming.

 

Dual Cell LCD aka 'ULED XD' . Unique to Hisense TV's , this brand new technology uses a traditional ,but VERY bright, backlit black and white 1920x1080 LCD panel to backlight another full color 4k LCD panel, effectively resulting in 2million local dimming zones.

 

OLED. These are pixel sized organic based LEDs using organic based chemicals to produce color and light rather than mechanical basis of producing light used in LCD. These have pixel level dimming, and near instant response times.

 

QD / Quantom Dot.  Is a filter layer used to better filter light to the correct colors allowing for better color range and accruacy. LCDs with this tech often are called QLED.

 

Both LCD and OLED use sample and hold techniques for displaying images. This means each frame is produced then held fur the duration of the frame. This results in persistence blur, hence why even though OLED has instant response time u will still notice blur.

However BFI (Black frame insertion) can be used to simulated oldschool CRT flicker to remove persistence blur.

In LCD display BFI needs to be synchronized with the backlight frequency to avoid strobe crosstalk which is where a moving images appears to have duplicates of it trailing behind caused by the LED backlight flicker frequency not matching up with the frequency of the frames produced by the LCD.

OLED however does not have this issues as the entire pixel which produce both light and color is what is 'flickering' thus no synchronization to be had.

 

Prior to all these were Plasma displays, they were at smallest 42" and limited to TV's. They introduced 'pixels' to displays , maintained per pixel dimming, had great contrast and colors and had instant, what we now call, 'pixel response times' but were hot and high power usage, they suffered from burn in, were heavy, but not as bulky as the previous technology.

 

Prior to Plasma were CRT. These were the big box displays. Commonly used displays generally had a maximum size of ~37" for TVs, massive hulking things that required multiple people to carry. Monitors commonly went down to 14" for PC use that were still heavy for their size. CRT monitors generally topped out at 22". They had brilliant color, contrast, black levels, did not have 'pixels', could vary their resolution and refresh rate and had instantaneous 'response times'. In terms of pure picture quality the technologies that followed CRT were downgrades, many 'retro' gaming enthusiast still prefer CRT for use with such systems, and those lucky enough to own the best CRTs made at the end of the techs life still hold displays that beat the majority of modern displays. The legendary 22" 16:10 Sony GDM-FW900 is the most well known example.

 

 

Hope this helps

So the only LED array panels that ever happened are microLED and OLED.  There was never a larger 3 color LED array panel with no LCD?  

So the term “LED display” was always marketing crap that only ever had to do with how the backlight was done.  I got lied to good then.

 

miniLED is basically a black and white microLED array panel used as a backlight for LCD.

black and white isn’t useless.  I kinda want one with no LCD in front of it.

 

[Bombastinator]

What bout those phone displays that were supposed to use more power if they were all white and less power if they weredark though?  There was all this stuff about using red type because the red LEDs used less power.

[Chen G]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

What bout those phone displays that were supposed to use more power if they were all white and less power if they weredark though?  There was all this stuff about using red type because the red LEDs used less power.

Those are OLED displays.

Phone OLED dispalys use distinct materials for the primary colors, and some colors have higher luminous efficiency than others, so it takes less power to light up some colors than others. In practice the difference is minuscule and not worth the hassle. If you wanna save power just make it black.

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

So the only LED array panels that ever happened are microLED and OLED.  There was never a larger 3 color LED array panel with no LCD?  

So the term “LED display” was always marketing crap that only ever had to do with how the backlight was done.  I got lied to good then.

 

miniLED is basically a black and white microLED array panel used as a backlight for LCD.

black and white isn’t useless.  I kinda want one with no LCD in front of it.

There are large mini-LED display panels, the pixels are many millimeters each so they're too big for anything other wall sized displays.

It has always been possible to make displays just with big arrays of 3 color LEDs, the challenge is making them small, and making the gap between pixels small, and making the display appear black when not lit. Currently they can make the pixels small enough for a huge TV, like 100" to fit 4k pixels. The idea is you'd make it even smaller so you can fit 4k in like a 50" TV and preferably, a 13" screen.

 

There were some insane prototypes that's like 4k pixels in a 1" screen at 10,000 nits or something. That's gonna be the ultimate panel for VR goggles.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Chen G said:

Those are OLED displays.

Phone OLED dispalys use distinct materials for the primary colors, and some colors have higher luminous efficiency than others, so it takes less power to light up some colors than others. In practice the difference is minuscule and not worth the hassle. If you wanna save power just make it black.

There are large mini-LED display panels, the pixels are many millimeters each so they're too big for anything other wall sized displays.

It has always been possible to make displays just with big arrays of 3 color LEDs, the challenge is making them small, and making the gap between pixels small, and making the display appear black when not lit. Currently they can make the pixels small enough for a huge TV, like 100" to fit 4k pixels. The idea is you'd make it even smaller so you can fit 4k in like a 50" TV and preferably, a 13" screen.

 

I’d be fine with a 27” 1080p.  Screw 4k. I’d even take it black and whit if it was cheap and lasted.  My understanding is LCD doesn’t last as long as CRT.  Could be wrong about that.  I’ve got cfftLCDs though that are so old theyre 720p and VGA only and they still work fine though.

[Chen G]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’d be fine with a 27” 1080p.  Screw 4k. I’d even take it black and whit if it was cheap and lasted.  My understanding is LCD doesn’t last as long as CRT.  Could be wrong about that.  I’ve got cfftLCDs though that are so old theyre 720p and VGA only and they still work fine though.

I doubt that'll be the first things that come to market. It'll be high-end only and focused on picture quality. Also like OLED, they'll start with big TVs rather than computer displays.

 

[Bombastinator]

35 minutes ago, Chen G said:

I doubt that'll be the first things that come to market. It'll be high-end only and focused on picture quality. Also like OLED, they'll start with big TVs rather than computer displays.

 

Yeah shiney and breaks fast is a lot more profitable than homely but durable.

[Doobeedoo]

Well in short though, MiniLED is just a better form of backlight for LCD to improve contrast and helps for HDR but it's still FALD type of display and not self emissive like OLED or MicroLED though. It's a cheaper alternative than the two but better than regular LCD displays. For true HDR really you need per-pixel emission like OLED and MicroLED though OLED has it's own issues and cost too, reasons not being widespread for monitors so that's where MiniLED comes, to bridge the gap to MicroLED in the future. And MicroLED is superior than OLED in every too, also without it's cons too, but also much more expensive than OLED is even.

[jones177]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:42 PM, Bombastinator said:

Yeah shiney and breaks fast is a lot more profitable than homely but durable.

Every monitor or TV I have bought has lasted past its usefulness to me. 

 

I have given away all my 1080p and lower resolution monitors. 

I have given away all my 1080p and lower TVs.  Even my 2006 vintage 1080i 55" Sony that I used for 13 years was given away. It would not die to make way for a new 4k TV.

 

My only issue now is that my OLED will last so long that I may never experience a MicroLED unless I give that away too. 

[VIVO-US]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:59 PM, Bombastinator said:

My understanding is LCD doesn’t last as long as CRT.  Could be wrong about that.  I’ve got cfftLCDs though that are so old theyre 720p and VGA only and they still work fine though.

In my experience, a good LCD panel can last as long as or even longer than a CRT.  Most of the LCD failures I've seen are from a factory defect (which can take from days to years to show up) or rough handling.  For the backlight, LED is quite a bit more reliable and long lasting than CCFL, since CCFLs dim more quickly with age and are powered by AC inverters (which were a common point of failure in many screens).

 

For best reliability, I would go with an LCD panel with LED backlight.

 

On the topic of microLED, this is a new tech that still isn't developed enough for the consumer market.  Samsung is using it for "The Wall", but they haven't yet gotten the LED pixels small enough to use on a regular TV or monitor.  If it can be developed well enough, it will compete with and possibly replace OLED.

EDIT: I totally missed the announcement of Samsung's 75" 4K Micro LED TV!  I'm sure it'll still be expensive, but they're developing the tech a lot faster than I expected.