RTX below 3% margin for Manufacturers, also possible price hike incoming

[ZacoAttaco]

8 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

There's no fucking way it costs novideo anywhere close to $900 to make those cards, I honestly feel like they are trying to muscle out the AIBs with the new aftermarket quality FE edition and this pricing

Short term maybe, but long term don't they make more money by having more AIB partners working with them? That leads to more sales besides, NVIDIA wouldn't be able to keep up with demand if everyone only wanted the reference models.

[S w a t s o n]

Just now, ZacoAttaco said:

Short term maybe, but long term don't they make more money by having more AIB partners working with them? That leads to more sales besides, NVIDIA wouldn't be able to keep up with demand if everyone only wanted the reference models.

Sure they supply all the chips anyways, they would just need to be able to make enough coolers, and it's not like they actually manufacture those themselves

[pas008]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

because 12nm (16nm) wafer costs are known and gddr6 is only 20% more expensive than GD5X. They could literally afford to put HBM2 on this card

sources on this please give them

and are you considering the size of these chips also

 

and my edit 

the cost of adding in those features that need continuous work now

[Blademaster91]

10 minutes ago, pas008 said:

rnd and then the wafers along with gddr6

so how do you know what it actually costs?

I have no clue what it actually costs them, but I doubt the GDDR6 with ram inflation, the larger die wafers,and the r&d was just them taking tensor cores and slapping it on the die along side a Pascal chip with a few optimizations actually costs Nvidia $200-300 more than the 1080 to manufacture.

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

sources on this please give them

and are you considering the size of these chips also

 

and my edit 

the cost of adding in those features that need continuous work now

yea no, you had this argument with leadeater last time. Every new generation has costs of new technologies and R&D, gamers nexus got the 20% figure from a tradeshow from a memory supplier and you can google wafer pricing if you want it.

[pas008]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

I have no clue what it actually costs them, but I doubt the GDDR6 with ram inflation, the larger die wafers,and the r&d was just them taking tensor cores and slapping it on the die along side a Pascal chip with a few optimizations.

larger dies mean harder lower yeilds doesnt it?

[pas008]

Just now, S w a t s o n said:

yea no, you had this argument with leadeater last time. Every new generation has costs of new technologies and R&D, gamers nexus got the 20% figure from a tradeshow from a memory supplier and you can google wafer pricing if you want it.

your claims so you should be backing it up

[pas008]

39 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

The tariffs had nothing to do with caselabs closing, caselabs were already in trouble since they lost a significant amount of orders while the tarrifs in the news was a convenient time for them to shift the blame. Companies should be going to Taiwan or stop using low quality steel and find another source instead of trying to find excuses.

shop i work at is paying 30% more for steel if we can get it,

and we quit exporting because the price is just horrible for anyone that is applying tariffs on us now because of retaliation

[S w a t s o n]

Just now, pas008 said:

your claims so you should be backing it up

nah I dont really need to, nvidia's pricing isn't gonna change either way and I'm satisfied with myself knowing how much it costs to make a video card. if you disagree with the claim that's fine but im not gonna spoonfeed you pricing to prove it. you also made claims of wafer pricing and gddr6 pricing with no actual numbers so we're pretty much at an impasse

[ZacoAttaco]

10 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

because 12nm (16nm) wafer costs are known and gddr6 is only 20% more expensive than GD5X. They could literally afford to put HBM2 on this card

7 minutes ago, pas008 said:

the cost of adding in those features that need continuous work now

Not to play Devil's advocate but they probably need to compensate for the research and development that went into ray tracing and the new AI functionality that's gone into Turing. But that still shouldn't leave only a 3% margin for AIBs...

 

EDIT: Swatson just mentioned this.

[pas008]

Just now, S w a t s o n said:

nah I dont really need to, nvidia's pricing isn't gonna change either way and I'm satisfied with myself knowing how much it costs to make a video card. if you disagree with the claim that's fine but im not gonna spoonfeed you pricing to prove it. you also made claims of wafer pricing and gddr6 pricing with no actual numbers so we're pretty much at an impasse

we all know ram prices are inflated

we all know larger the wafer has lower yields, bet I could prolly quote you saying this also

[pas008]

Just now, ZacoAttaco said:

Not to play Devil's advocate but they probably need to compensate for the research and development that went into ray tracing and the new AI functionality that's gone into Turing. But that still shouldn't leave only a 3% margin for AIBs...

 

never said anything about 3% margin for aibs

aib cards are suppose to be lower than fe but they always were pretty damn close to fe prices as is

[S w a t s o n]

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

we all know ram prices are inflated

we all know larger the wafer has lower yields, bet I could prolly quote you saying this also

you dont know what nvidia pays for gddr6, there's not really much to be inflated because they were just about the first customer
you dont know what yields overall are, larger dies do tend to have lower yields but node maturity and density can swing that a lot

your claim is basically "ram is expensive and they are big dies so $900 makes sense" which is not a valid claim without numbers

[S w a t s o n]

3 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Not to play Devil's advocate but they probably need to compensate for the research and development that went into ray tracing and the new AI functionality that's gone into Turing. But that still shouldn't leave only a 3% margin for AIBs...

 

Honestly this entire "you have to pay for R&D" meme is just that a meme. Nvidia has $10,000 quadro cards for a reason. To recoup R&D and make the majority of their margin from business customers. Geforce cards aren't how Nvidia makes their money anymore

 

[ZacoAttaco]

11 minutes ago, pas008 said:

never said anything about 3% margin for aibs

aib cards are suppose to be lower than fe but they always were pretty damn close to fe prices as is

Either the production costs are through the roof or NVIDIA is screwing over their partners. Because if this price hike occurs than FE cards will be cheaper than the AIBs.

 

To be honest I'm way out of my depths here.

[pas008]

3 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

you dont know what nvidia pays for gddr6, there's not really much to be inflated because they were just about the first customer
you dont know what yields overall are, larger dies do tend to have lower yields but node maturity and density can swing that a lot

your claim is basically "ram is expensive and they are big dies so $900 makes sense" which is not a valid claim without numbers

just looking how past goes at first high markup until yields improve

and we dont know the yields period

 

2 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Honestly this entire "you have to pay for R&D" meme is just that a meme. Nvidia has $10,000 quadro cards for a reason. To recoup R&D and make the majority of their margin from business customers. Geforce cards aren't how Nvidia makes their money anymore

 

isnt gaming 50% of their revenue?

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12022/nvidia-announces-earnings-of-26-billion-for-q3-2018

[ZacoAttaco]

5 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Honestly this entire "you have to pay for R&D" meme is just that a meme. Nvidia has $10,000 quadro cards for a reason. To recoup R&D and make the majority of their margin from business customers. Geforce cards aren't how Nvidia makes their money anymore

Makes sense, there's a lot more industry/enterprise focused features on these new cards, like improvements to AI and Simulation.

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

isnt gaming 50% of their revenue?

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12022/nvidia-announces-earnings-of-26-billion-for-q3-2018

 

Quote

As usual, NVIDIA’s gaming segment provides the lion’s share – around 59% – of the company’s Q3 revenue, riding on PC gaming

Gaming segment is Geforce. That would include all the geforce cards sold to miners and the sheer number of geforce cards sold compared to quadro cards.

They still make money from Geforce but they aren't priced to be high margin, they aren't trying recoup R&D from your 1060 or 2060

 

[pas008]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

 

Gaming segment is Geforce. That would include all the geforce cards sold to miners and the sheer number of geforce cards sold compared to quadro cards.

They still make money from Geforce but they aren't priced to be high margin, they aren't trying recoup R&D from your 1060 or 2060

 

what? its always about recouping some rnd considering rnd does give tax credit

 

rnd isnt complete loss, but you do want to recoup some of those funds

 

 

[Blademaster91]

45 minutes ago, pas008 said:

we all know ram prices are inflated

we all know larger the wafer has lower yields, bet I could prolly quote you saying this also

The ram inflation on gddr5 and gddr5x is nearly the same as gddr6, yet the 10 series have come down in price quite a bit.

47 minutes ago, pas008 said:

shop i work at is paying 30% more for steel if we can get it,

and we quit exporting because the price is just horrible for anyone that is applying tariffs on us now because of retaliation

I agree though it sucks you either can't get stuff or are forced to pay 30% more for it because they'd rather retaliate and screw over the consumer. Not a great idea to force a tariff through when you only have one manufacturer,maybe the steel tariffs should have been held off until the US can make more steel. I'd rather at least tech companies get away from China especially after the DRAM inflation, but maybe part of Nvidia's price hike accounts for the now higher cost of selling GPU's.

38 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Honestly this entire "you have to pay for R&D" meme is just that a meme. Nvidia has $10,000 quadro cards for a reason. To recoup R&D and make the majority of their margin from business customers. Geforce cards aren't how Nvidia makes their money anymore

 

Yeah Nvidia could even take a loss of the Geforce cards if they wanted to, but as a company why when you can pull an Apple with overpriced hardware on a feature most game devs won't use until RTX is mainstream, though not even DX12 is widely used as it should be. I think it won't help ray tracing become popular when the barrier to entry is so high on hardware that can use ray tracing well.

[S w a t s o n]

Just now, pas008 said:

what? its always about recouping some rnd considering rnd does give tax credit

 

rnd isnt complete loss, but you do want to recoup some of those funds

 

 

No it's not. Yes technically literally any money made of the sale of the card pays off R&D because profits are what is used, but why do you think they sell a Quadro 6000 at $6300k and a 2080ti at $1k, they are almost the card. Do you think 12gb of ram and certifications cost 5.3k to do? Quadros used to sell at $5k and be margin hogs for nvidia. The quadro 8000 at 10k, do you think it costs 3.7k for 24GB of GDDR6?

[pas008]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

No it's not. Yes technically literally any money made of the sale of the card pays off R&D because profits are what is used, but why do you think they sell a Quadro 6000 at $6300k and a 2080ti at $1k, they are almost the card. Do you think 12gb of ram and certifications cost 5.3k to do? Quadros used to sell at $5k and be margin hogs for nvidia. The quadro 8000 at 10k, do you think it costs 3.7k for 24GB of GDDR6?

whole different set of software and stability along with no competition in those areas

not to mention a complete niche market

[S w a t s o n]

Just now, pas008 said:

whole different set of software and stability along with no competition in those areas

not to mention a complete niche market

Actually Nvidia has competition in the professional market from AMD, closer than gaming for sure.
But yes they charge more because they can. That is exactly what I am saying. How do you pay for R&D. Profits. How do you make profits: 1. Sell lots of cards (Geforce) 2. Sell a product at a fuck heug margin (Tesla/Quadro)

[SteveGrabowski0]

So the dotard tax kicks in tomorrow?

[pas008]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

Actually Nvidia has competition in the professional market from AMD, closer than gaming for sure.
But yes they charge more because they can. That is exactly what I am saying. How do you pay for R&D. Profits. How do you make profits: 1. Sell lots of cards (Geforce) 2. Sell a product at a fuck heug margin (Tesla/Quadro)

no you include rnd into your price

and selling lots means shit

you need to keep strict margin