MrSpeakers Mad dogs and Schiit Stack(Magni/Modi) or others?

[LinusTech]

Most Schiit products have a really high gain and output impedance, the Vali more so since its part tube amp, which is...bad. 

 

No point its been done before, and ignored because hail the shiny square thing thats good because Schiit said its good. 

Save your dollar bills and just get the Magni if you ignore this, which I'm expecting you to do. 

Don't need the dac which makes zero impact on tonality. 

 

Hard for me to say "it's bad" if I haven't at least listened to it.

 

We can empirically prove that one thing is better than another over and over again, but if you can't actually hear the difference... Does it matter? 

 

Handily (thanks to Mr. Mayflower) I have my very own ODAC + O2 to compare against, so if it's that different, then it should be a cakewalk.

Edited December 28, 2013 by LinusTech
clarity

[EmoRarity]

Hard for me to say "it's bad" if I haven't at least listened to it.

 

We can empirically prove that one thing is better than another over and over again, but if you can't actually hear the difference... Does it matter? 

 

Handily (thanks to Mr. Mayflower) I have my very own ODAC + O2 to compare against, so if it's that different, then it should be a cakewalk.

I've done the comparison myself.

O2 was an O2, as expected.

Magni, was a treble heavy, bass suppressing disappointment that cost the same. 

[h264]

Hard for me to say "it's bad" if I haven't at least listened to it.

 

We can empirically prove that one thing is better than another over and over again, but if you can't actually hear the difference... Does it matter? 

 

Handily (thanks to Mr. Mayflower) I have my very own ODAC + O2 to compare against, so if it's that different, then it should be a cakewalk.

 

It should sound about the same other than being significantly louder.  I'll be interested to see what you have to say.  Do make sure to buy or find a pair of RCA cables to connect them since it doesn't come with one.

[tehsprayer]

I'm going to wait for Linus' review. Hopefully they ship to you soon!

[geogga]

I ordered the mad dogs today. I also accidently ordered RCA cables and a USB cable from monoprice but good thing they were cheap! Really wished I could have canceled it but no option.

Thank you Linus for looking into this, and I hope the battle goes well.

[h264]

I ordered the mad dogs today. I also accidently ordered RCA cables and a USB cable from monoprice but good thing they were cheap! Really wished I could have canceled it but no option.

Thank you Linus for looking into this, and I hope the battle goes well.

 

you can never have too many rca and usb cables, trust me

[EmoRarity]

you can never have too many rca and usb cables, trust me

Though I do end up with to many male/male 3.5mm cables and 3.5mm to 6.3mm adapters. I even have an adapter from a pair of Studios! Amusingly its broken.

[LinusTech]

It should sound about the same other than being significantly louder. I'll be interested to see what you have to say. Do make sure to buy or find a pair of RCA cables to connect them since it doesn't come with one.

It would be really interesting to do a blind taste testing party with audio gear. Set up stations and have blindfolded folks without much audio gear experience pick what they like better.

I often find I get new insight about a pair of headphones from someone who hasn't listened to many others.

[LinusTech]

I'm going to wait for Linus' review. Hopefully they ship to you soon!

It will likely take a while after few for sure.

[MayflowerElectronics]

Hard for me to say "it's bad" if I haven't at least listened to it.

 

We can empirically prove that one thing is better than another over and over again, but if you can't actually hear the difference... Does it matter? 

 

Handily (thanks to Mr. Mayflower) I have my very own ODAC + O2 to compare against, so if it's that different, then it should be a cakewalk.

 

This needs to be tested correctly. If you just plug a headphone into one and listen to music, that's not a proper test. You need to do a blind test with someone to help you switch between headphone amps. Now the whole point of a headphone amp is to make the music louder, and add no effects, reverberations, ect ect. You shouldn't have to LISTEN to an amp, you should listen to the headphones. So a proper test would be which sounds more neutral, not different. Different does not equal better.

 

The fact is that the shit stack is a very simple badly designed amp and DAC combo that's been marketed well. The engineering done with the objective2 is much better than anything from schiit. Alternatively, they (shit stack) will sound terrible on low impedance, high sensitive headphones. It comes as stock with 7x gain, which is WAY to much for about 90% of the headphones on the market. Though I doubt you'll read this anyway, but this test has been done before and the o2 is just better. 

 

People use the excuse that "it's cheaper". By the time you add RCA and USB cables + shipping, you are right in line with what the o2/ODAC costs. Similarly, if you just need an amp, the o2 is $15 more. Not a valid excuse. 

 

heh funny stuff, yes, you'll need to do a proper blind test to remove any bias.

Edited December 28, 2013 by MayflowerElectronics

[EmoRarity]

It would be really interesting to do a blind taste testing party with audio gear. Set up stations and have blindfolded folks without much audio gear experience pick what they like better.

I often find I get new insight about a pair of headphones from someone who hasn't listened to many others.

I do suppose it would be interesting to set something up, as to have a random series of headphones to demo. 

By that I mean, single source, multiple headphones, and have the blind tester say which is best. Just to see if brand prejudice is something effectual, because people have been blind testing amps for the longest time, though I've never seen a blind headphone test. 

[h264]

The fact is that the shit stack is a very simple badly designed amp and DAC combo that's been marketed well.

 

Specifically, they bent over backwards with MOSFET gates and such just so they didn't have to break their company's "no op-amps" rule. 

 

I'd think he'd need at least an SPL meter to match the sound pressure to within about 2db.  That would be pretty good.  Better than nothing.

[EmoRarity]

Specifically, they bent over backwards with MOSFET gates and such just so they didn't have to break their company's "no op-amps" rule. 

 

I'd think he'd need at least an SPL meter to match the sound pressure to within about 2db.  That would be pretty good.  Better than nothing.

Would be amusing to see the difference in gain settings. (As in the nob position)  

[schiit]

Hey all,

 

Apparently I am satan incarnate, here to steal your wallets and sell you incompetently designed products. So be it. That's cool.  

 

I will say that we have a company policy of never trash-talking other manufacturers' products: schiit.com/about/principles, as well as several others you may find surprising, such as recommending you spend most of your budget on headphones, and not speculating on possible perceived sonic differences in order to sell our products. 

 

I would, however, like to clear up some misconceptions about us that seem to have been repeated here many times as gospel:

 

1. "Magni gain is 7x (or 12x, as I've also seen claimed)." Magni's gain is actually 5x. Whether or not this is "too much" depends on your headphones and personal preferences. The gain is clearly stated on the website, as well as proper caveats about possible channel mismatch at very low volume levels with sensitive headphones such as IEMs. 

 

2. "Magni is just a CMOY in a fancy box." Actually, a CMOY amplifier is a very simple, op-amp based design, usually battery-powered, while Magni is a fully discrete design with a rectified and regulated AC power supply in the chassis, as well as relay mute. Google "CMOY PCB" and compare to the Magni PCB photo on our site, and I think you'll see they are nothing alike.

 

3. "Schiit is an incompetent company, run by a bunch of luddites." Hey, I'll be the first to admit we're not perfect, but we do have a good pedigree. Mike Moffat founded Theta, Theta Digital, and Angstrom, and he introduced the first standalone DAC in 1986, using Motorola DSP to run his own digital filter software, amongst other things. My early career was spent at Sumo, where I designed several speaker amps, DACs, a CD transport, preamps, etc. Together, we've built and sold literally tens of thousands of audio products over the years, most to high acclaim. Schiit has more than doubled that number by now. 

 

4. "We have stupid rules, like no op-amps." No. We've never said we would never use op-amps; we've said we prefer to avoid them for most applications. There are many reasons for this, most of which have to do with the ability to tailor the actual architecture, overall gain, and feedback (or lack thereof) to a specific application. That said, Modi and Loki both use op-amps for gain stages, and many of our products use them for DC servos, and we go to no lengths to hide this fact. If you don't like this approach, that's fine--there are plenty of other manufacturers out there with different philosophies, none of which we attack or belittle.

 

5. "We make amps that blow up headphones, like Asgard." Actually, to our knowledge, no headphones were ever destroyed by Asgard. It's true early Asgards did not come with a relay mute, but once we understood the need of the market for true plug-and-leave-connected convenience, we announced the implementation of a relay mute for the product within 4 days, destroyed an entire run of Asgards in production to put it in place, offered all owners of older Asgards a free relay mute update, and notified all owners of original Asgards of the recall (an offer which remains in place in perpetuity.) Like I said, we're not perfect, but we do try to make things right.

 

I hope this clears some things up, and I will hopefully find some time to drop by now and again—never to sell, shill, or attack, though.

 

Linus, I'm looking forward to the results of the comparison, and thank you for stepping forward to get an independent perspective on our products. 

 

All the best,

 

Jason Stoddard

Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

[SSL]

I think they're a decent product, the only people that seem to disagree is this forum

 

It's definitely not limited to this forum.

[tehsprayer]

Hey all,

Apparently I am satan incarnate, here to steal your wallets and sell you incompetently designed products. So be it. That's cool.

I will say that we have a company policy of never trash-talking other manufacturers' products: schiit.com/about/principles, as well as several others you may find surprising, such as recommending you spend most of your budget on headphones, and not speculating on possible perceived sonic differences in order to sell our products.

I would, however, like to clear up some misconceptions about us that seem to have been repeated here many times as gospel:

1. "Magni gain is 7x (or 12x, as I've also seen claimed)." Magni's gain is actually 5x. Whether or not this is "too much" depends on your headphones and personal preferences. The gain is clearly stated on the website, as well as proper caveats about possible channel mismatch at very low volume levels with sensitive headphones such as IEMs.

2. "Magni is just a CMOY in a fancy box." Actually, a CMOY amplifier is a very simple, op-amp based design, usually battery-powered, while Magni is a fully discrete design with a rectified and regulated AC power supply in the chassis, as well as relay mute. Google "CMOY PCB" and compare to the Magni PCB photo on our site, and I think you'll see they are nothing alike.

3. "Schiit is an incompetent company, run by a bunch of luddites." Hey, I'll be the first to admit we're not perfect, but we do have a good pedigree. Mike Moffat founded Theta, Theta Digital, and Angstrom, and he introduced the first standalone DAC in 1986, using Motorola DSP to run his own digital filter software, amongst other things. My early career was spent at Sumo, where I designed several speaker amps, DACs, a CD transport, preamps, etc. Together, we've built and sold literally tens of thousands of audio products over the years, most to high acclaim. Schiit has more than doubled that number by now.

4. "We have stupid rules, like no op-amps." No. We've never said we would never use op-amps; we've said we prefer to avoid them for most applications. There are many reasons for this, most of which have to do with the ability to tailor the actual architecture, overall gain, and feedback (or lack thereof) to a specific application. That said, Modi and Loki both use op-amps for gain stages, and many of our products use them for DC servos, and we go to no lengths to hide this fact. If you don't like this approach, that's fine--there are plenty of other manufacturers out there with different philosophies, none of which we attack or belittle.

5. "We make amps that blow up headphones, like Asgard." Actually, to our knowledge, no headphones were ever destroyed by Asgard. It's true early Asgards did not come with a relay mute, but once we understood the need of the market for true plug-and-leave-connected convenience, we announced the implementation of a relay mute for the product within 4 days, destroyed an entire run of Asgards in production to put it in place, offered all owners of older Asgards a free relay mute update, and notified all owners of original Asgards of the recall (an offer which remains in place in perpetuity.) Like I said, we're not perfect, but we do try to make things right.

I hope this clears some things up, and I will hopefully find some time to drop by now and again—never to sell, shill, or attack, though.

Linus, I'm looking forward to the results of the comparison, and thank you for stepping forward to get an independent perspective on our products.

All the best,

Jason Stoddard

Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

Me too Jason, good to clear things up. The comparison of linus will make up my decision.

[TofuAce]

Hey all,

 

Apparently I am satan incarnate, here to steal your wallets and sell you incompetently designed products. So be it. That's cool.  

 

I will say that we have a company policy of never trash-talking other manufacturers' products: schiit.com/about/principles, as well as several others you may find surprising, such as recommending you spend most of your budget on headphones, and not speculating on possible perceived sonic differences in order to sell our products. 

 

I would, however, like to clear up some misconceptions about us that seem to have been repeated here many times as gospel:

 

1. "Magni gain is 7x (or 12x, as I've also seen claimed)." Magni's gain is actually 5x. Whether or not this is "too much" depends on your headphones and personal preferences. The gain is clearly stated on the website, as well as proper caveats about possible channel mismatch at very low volume levels with sensitive headphones such as IEMs. 

 

2. "Magni is just a CMOY in a fancy box." Actually, a CMOY amplifier is a very simple, op-amp based design, usually battery-powered, while Magni is a fully discrete design with a rectified and regulated AC power supply in the chassis, as well as relay mute. Google "CMOY PCB" and compare to the Magni PCB photo on our site, and I think you'll see they are nothing alike.

 

3. "Schiit is an incompetent company, run by a bunch of luddites." Hey, I'll be the first to admit we're not perfect, but we do have a good pedigree. Mike Moffat founded Theta, Theta Digital, and Angstrom, and he introduced the first standalone DAC in 1986, using Motorola DSP to run his own digital filter software, amongst other things. My early career was spent at Sumo, where I designed several speaker amps, DACs, a CD transport, preamps, etc. Together, we've built and sold literally tens of thousands of audio products over the years, most to high acclaim. Schiit has more than doubled that number by now. 

 

4. "We have stupid rules, like no op-amps." No. We've never said we would never use op-amps; we've said we prefer to avoid them for most applications. There are many reasons for this, most of which have to do with the ability to tailor the actual architecture, overall gain, and feedback (or lack thereof) to a specific application. That said, Modi and Loki both use op-amps for gain stages, and many of our products use them for DC servos, and we go to no lengths to hide this fact. If you don't like this approach, that's fine--there are plenty of other manufacturers out there with different philosophies, none of which we attack or belittle.

 

5. "We make amps that blow up headphones, like Asgard." Actually, to our knowledge, no headphones were ever destroyed by Asgard. It's true early Asgards did not come with a relay mute, but once we understood the need of the market for true plug-and-leave-connected convenience, we announced the implementation of a relay mute for the product within 4 days, destroyed an entire run of Asgards in production to put it in place, offered all owners of older Asgards a free relay mute update, and notified all owners of original Asgards of the recall (an offer which remains in place in perpetuity.) Like I said, we're not perfect, but we do try to make things right.

 

I hope this clears some things up, and I will hopefully find some time to drop by now and again—never to sell, shill, or attack, though.

 

Linus, I'm looking forward to the results of the comparison, and thank you for stepping forward to get an independent perspective on our products. 

 

All the best,

 

Jason Stoddard

Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

 

Well you sure did find this thread quickly.

[geogga]

Well you sure did find this thread quickly.

I mean any company who is being bashed because of some things would probably respond back to defog the issue at hand.

I'm still breaking in my Mad dogs because the only problem is their comfort. I know every single person who got these say they're comfortable, and I thinks that I'm the only one who doesn't think they are. Maybe because I'm wearing glasses or maybe I feel like. The headphone clamps too hard on your head. Or maybe the unbalance of the amount of foam in the ear cup( front part is less than back part) causes more pressure. Either way I'm doing my best to get used to them.

But that's what happens to every new thing you get, right?

[MayflowerElectronics]

I mean any company who is being bashed because of some things would probably respond back to defog the issue at hand.

I'm still breaking in my Mad dogs because the only problem is their comfort. I know every single person who got these say they're comfortable, and I thinks that I'm the only one who doesn't think they are. Maybe because I'm wearing glasses or maybe I feel like. The headphone clamps too hard on your head. Or maybe the unbalance of the amount of foam in the ear cup( front part is less than back part) causes more pressure. Either way I'm doing my best to get used to them.

But that's what happens to every new thing you get, right?

Not really, all of my headphones have been comfortable right out of the box. Normally if they're uncomfortable, they don't improve much over time if at all.

[mr moose]

 

2. "Magni is just a CMOY in a fancy box." Actually, a CMOY amplifier is a very simple, op-amp based design, usually battery-powered, while Magni is a fully discrete design with a rectified and regulated AC power supply in the chassis, as well as relay mute. Google "CMOY PCB" and compare to the Magni PCB photo on our site, and I think you'll see they are nothing alike.

 

Is it possible to get a schematic diagram of the magni?  I have heard many rumors about this and other amps (o2 for example) being labeled as "just CMOY's" or "glorified cmoy's" however I have been able to compare the actual schematics of the O2 to various forms of the CMOY and know that isn't the case there,  but It would be too difficult to rule out the Magni from a picture of the PCB

[ShearMe]

I mean any company who is being bashed because of some things would probably respond back to defog the issue at hand.

I'm still breaking in my Mad dogs because the only problem is their comfort. I know every single person who got these say they're comfortable, and I thinks that I'm the only one who doesn't think they are. Maybe because I'm wearing glasses or maybe I feel like. The headphone clamps too hard on your head. Or maybe the unbalance of the amount of foam in the ear cup( front part is less than back part) causes more pressure. Either way I'm doing my best to get used to them.

But that's what happens to every new thing you get, right?

 

Those soft pads don't really break in like hard foam does.

[TofuAce]

I mean any company who is being bashed because of some things would probably respond back to defog the issue at hand.

 

 

I wouldn't say ANY company. I'll leave it at that. People can figure out my position on my two posts in this thread easily enough already.

[ShearMe]

People can figure out my position on my two posts in this thread easily enough already.

 

Jangha vibhor?

[TofuAce]

Jangha vibhor?

Haha except on weekends.