Overkill PSU

[Sidra]

Hi, my current build is i7 7700k, z270g strix, 16gb corsair vengeance and 1070strix, somehow i want to replace my corsair vs650 (low on budget at that time) since i want to oc my system, 

 

Question is, is it ok i go for 850w instead of 650w? Because i got good bargain for seasonic focus plus gold 850w with same price with corsair rm650x.

 

EVGA is out of question.. G3 not available now, G+ is 170mm... 

 

And i dont plan on sli, stick for single card, maybe aim for 1180 or 1170...

[bellabichon]

You probably won't need a new PSU then.

[Max_Settings]

650 is plenty. Only go 850W if you want to do SLI in the future.

[DocSwag]

650 is totally fine. That being said, if an 850 is the same price as a 650, I see no reason to get the 650w

[redsquirrel0249]

There are power supply calculators (like Cooler Master's) that can help determine what you need. Outer Vision also has one here. I recommend using the expert settings to really get a clear number. You can even set your desired overclock voltages and frequencies.

[PeterPorker3]

38 minutes ago, bellabichon said:

You probably won't need a new PSU then.

He has a vs series PSU, those things WILL blow up when they are anywhere close to full load after a few years of use in my experience. 

40 minutes ago, Sidra said:

Hi, my current build is i7 7700k, z270g strix, 16gb corsair vengeance and 1070strix, somehow i want to replace my corsair vs650 (low on budget at that time) since i want to oc my system, 

 

Question is, is it ok i go for 850w instead of 650w? Because i got good bargain for seasonic focus plus gold 850w with same price with corsair rm650x.

 

EVGA is out of question.. G3 not available now, G+ is 170mm... 

 

And i dont plan on sli, stick for single card, maybe aim for 1180 or 1170...

You don't need 850w, but if it's cheaper at the time and its a decent quality psu go for it. Also, why upgrade your GPU so soon?

Edited May 25, 2018 by MineParker101
wrong quote and typo

[AskTJ]

You can get the 850w. If it is the same price, why not. It wont use the extra watts.

[Mick Naughty]

Get what ever, no such thing as overkill unless its an inefficient pos. 

[Stefan Payne]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:51 PM, Sidra said:

Hi, my current build is i7 7700k, z270g strix, 16gb corsair vengeance and 1070strix, somehow i want to replace my corsair vs650 (low on budget at that time) since i want to oc my system, 

You don't even need 650W for that.

Look for a good quality 450W, 550W to "be on the safe side".

Any additional wattage gives yo no advantage at all but can give you hgiher fan speeds -> louder.

And the damage in a fault case is higher.

 

If you look at 140mm PSU, take a look at Silverstone Strider Platinum, Cooler Master V-Series, Bitfenix Formula. 

 

If 150mm with cables is still OK -> Cougar GX-F

 

Quote

And i dont plan on sli, stick for single card, maybe aim for 1180 or 1170...

And why do you want to go overwatt?
It only makes sense when you want high end SLi...

 

On 5/24/2018 at 9:25 PM, redsquirrel0249 said:

There are power supply calculators (like Cooler Master's) that can help determine what you need. Outer Vision also has one here. I recommend using the expert settings to really get a clear number. You can even set your desired overclock voltages and frequencies.

PSU Calculators are shit and if you use them wrongly overestimate the power consumption by 50-100%. So they should be avoided at all costs.

Reading reviews or looking for GPU Tests with Power Consumption measurements makes more sense. Because that's what the real life consumption will be, in many cases they measure the entire system with an HEDT Plattform. So more than most people here have...

 

On 5/24/2018 at 9:50 PM, Mick Naughty said:

Get what ever, no such thing as overkill unless its an inefficient pos. 

Well, there is.

Especially since you should think about the benefits for the other side.

 

Because _THE_ question here is just where is the benefit, what good does it do?

Even at the same price, does he have any benefits?
And where are the disadvantages...

 

And there are no advantages for getting higher wattage PSU if you don't use the wattage. But chances are that a higher speed fan is inside -> louder under all circumstances (and not quieter, with the same Plattform/Heatsinks).

 

And due to higher OCP/OPP trip points, the damage in case of a short can also be greater...

So higher wattage doesn't benefit him in any way with the systems he's planning, we are talking about a 200-350W System - wich is good for a 550W.

 

And that's why I'd recommend a 550W so much because its the best compromise for Single CPU/GPU systems.

 

650W is still shit because you can't really use them. (and no, that is NOT the maximum capacity, that is the rated continous capacity of the PSU).

[Sidra]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:53 PM, Max_Settings said:

650 is plenty. Only go 850W if you want to do SLI in the future.

Thanks, not going for sli, 1 card is enough for my need.. so, still go for 650w even can get 850w at same price point?

 

On 5/24/2018 at 9:17 PM, DocSwag said:

650 is totally fine. That being said, if an 850 is the same price as a 650, I see no reason to get the 650w

Thanks

 

22 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

You don't even need 650W for that.

Look for a good quality 450W, 550W to "be on the safe side".

Any additional wattage gives yo no advantage at all but can give you hgiher fan speeds -> louder.

And the damage in a fault case is higher.

 

If you look at 140mm PSU, take a look at Silverstone Strider Platinum, Cooler Master V-Series, Bitfenix Formula. 

 

If 150mm with cables is still OK -> Cougar GX-F

 

And why do you want to go overwatt?
It only makes sense when you want high end SLi...

My point is i can get 850w focus plus at 650w price point... Got offer for seasonic focus plus 850w... Silverstone and bitfenix are rare item in my country... Thanks anyway

 

22 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

-snip-

You totally got what i asking about man.. thanks, my question answered with OPP/OCP point above.. so I'm going for 650w.. in case can get my hand on 1080ti/1180ti...

 

On 5/24/2018 at 9:28 PM, MineParker101 said:

He has a vs series PSU, those things WILL blow up when they are anywhere close to full load after a few years of use in my experience. 

You don't need 850w, but if it's cheaper at the time and its a decent quality psu go for it. Also, why upgrade your GPU so soon?

Yes, because of VS series, I'm afraid to OC my system... Also, it is almost 2 years or more if not mistaken that im using 1070 ( I'm buying once available on market at that time). So, got some budget, and time to upgrade... Also, in my country, still can get 2/3 price I'm buying at that time if sold as used set right now.. luckily I'm buying before price spike... (Buying founders edition at that time/ swap later with my friend for strix version)

[Mick Naughty]

Lol, never have I’ve seen such invalid points to a psu suggestion. 

[DocSwag]

8 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

And there are no advantages for getting higher wattage PSU if you don't use the wattage. But chances are that a higher speed fan is inside -> louder under all circumstances (and not quieter, with the same Plattform/Heatsinks).

You're making a big assumption by making this claim. That assumption is that psu manufacturers won't adjust the fan curve between units with different max fan speeds. And it turns out that in the Focus Plus's case it doesn't look to be what's happening.

 

Focus plus 750w fan RPM and decibel levels

Spoiler

850w

Spoiler

As you can see, at lower wattages that OP is most likely to encounter, the fan speeds, and as a result noise levels, are about the same. However, once you pass 500w, the opposite of what you said would happen happens... We actually see the 750w being significantly louder than the 850.

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

You're making a big assumption by making this claim.

No, its a logical claim because it accepts the laws of thermodynamics.

 

3 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

That assumption is that psu manufacturers won't adjust the fan curve between units with different max fan speeds. And it turns out that in the Focus Plus's case it doesn't look to be what's happening.

There are manufacturers that use different fans within a series. be quiet is one example.

They tend to use at least 3 within one series...

And in most cases, the lowest wattage ones are the quietes because they use the slowest fans and the fans.

 

Bitfenix Whisper M uses two different fans within the series.

The lower ones rotates around 400rpm at idle

The higher ones at 650-700rpm at idle. 

One is used in the 450 and 550W, the other in 650W and above.

 

3 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Focus plus 750w fan RPM and decibel levels

 

As you can see, at lower wattages that OP is most likely to encounter, the fan speeds, and as a result noise levels, are about the same. However, once you pass 500w, the opposite of what you said would happen happens... We actually see the 750w being significantly louder than the 850.

As you can see, the temperatures when the 750W was tested were lower, And its all over the place. Why should a fan spin higher at lower loads? Doesn't make sense...

And why didn't you just link to the reviews?! 
I hate to look up things you should have linked. That's bad practice on your end!
ALWAYS Provide the Links!

 

The Problem with the Tomshardware Test is that they test the fan speed at high ambient temperature wich nobody should care about. 

And how in the world can the outgoing temperature be lower than the incoming...

And the next Problem is the Temperature: Its not the same with both, not even close. And that can make the difference between fan reving up or not. 

 

If you take other units, for example Corsair HX750i vs. Corsair HX1000i - it pretty much looks the same for both of them. There is no advantage in terms of noise for the 1000W over the 750W.

 

As for the efficiency:
It can be between 2 units of the same series can be a couple of per cent. 

 

The only time where the higher wattage makes sense is when they change the plattform!

Like the old RMx 650 vs. 750 in this case, the 750W makes sense. Or be quiet Dark Power Pro P11 750 -> 850W.

But not if we are talking about the same plattform!

 

If we do t hat, there is only one reason to choose more Watt: when you need it!

Not because it might eventually be quieter because there are many examples where that is not the case.

 

For example:

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/superflower_leadex_ii/s08.php

 

I have the 650/750W version, that is the 850/1000W version.

And with mine the minimum fan RPM is at around 770rpm - around 200rpm less than the 1000W version.

And also:

https://www.hartware.de/2012/11/27/be-quiet-dark-power-pro-10-650w/8/

 

550W at 100% load has lower fan RPM than 650W at 10%...

 

[Mick Naughty]

The 850 the experts recommended me, was louder then any I’ve bought so far. Was barely enough power and the sleeving didn’t match. 

 

Ill stick to my over kill stuff when I can. Less noise and actual headroom. No point in being minimalistic, especially not even riding in the effIcency rating. 

 

But people can post links all day, kinda how it goes. 

[DocSwag]

46 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

There are manufacturers that use different fans within a series. be quiet is one example.

They tend to use at least 3 within one series...

And in most cases, the lowest wattage ones are the quietes because they use the slowest fans and the fans.

 

Bitfenix Whisper M uses two different fans within the series.

The lower ones rotates around 400rpm at idle

The higher ones at 650-700rpm at idle. 

One is used in the 450 and 550W, the other in 650W and above.

Except that doesn't appear to be the case with the Focus Plus Gold

46 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

As you can see, the temperatures when the 750W was tested were lower, And its all over the place. Why should a fan spin higher at lower loads? Doesn't make sense..

If I'm reading it correctly, the delta temperature was actually lower on the 850w indicating a lower temperature.

48 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And why didn't you just link to the reviews?! 
I hate to look up things you should have linked. That's bad practice on your end!
ALWAYS Provide the Links!

I just pasted the sources I thought I needed to illustrate my point.

48 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

The Problem with the Tomshardware Test is that they test the fan speed at high ambient temperature wich nobody should care about. 

And how in the world can the outgoing temperature be lower than the incoming...

The outgoing isn't lower than the incoming... It's higher.

 

The ambient temperature shouldn't change their relative noise and RPM levels by a significant amount.

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

If you take other units, for example Corsair HX750i vs. Corsair HX1000i - it pretty much looks the same for both of them. There is no advantage in terms of noise for the 1000W over the 750W.

 

As for the efficiency:
It can be between 2 units of the same series can be a couple of per cent. 

 

The only time where the higher wattage makes sense is when they change the plattform!

Like the old RMx 650 vs. 750 in this case, the 750W makes sense. Or be quiet Dark Power Pro P11 750 -> 850W.

But not if we are talking about the same plattform!

 

If we do t hat, there is only one reason to choose more Watt: when you need it!

Not because it might eventually be quieter because there are many examples where that is not the case.

 

For example:

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/superflower_leadex_ii/s08.php

 

I have the 650/750W version, that is the 850/1000W version.

And with mine the minimum fan RPM is at around 770rpm - around 200rpm less than the 1000W version.

And also:

https://www.hartware.de/2012/11/27/be-quiet-dark-power-pro-10-650w/8/

 

550W at 100% load has lower fan RPM than 650W at 10%...

I never said that it wasn't possible that for other units higher wattage units might end up being louder. But the point is that for the Focus Plus Gold this isn't true. What I originally said:

Quote

 And it turns out that in the Focus Plus's case it doesn't look to be what's happening.

I didn't deny that other units might be louder with higher wattage units.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

Except that doesn't appear to be the case with the Focus Plus Gold

Yes, there are some series that use the same fan for the entire series.

But that does not mean its quieter under any circumstance...

Because it was tested at different ambient temperatures...

 

 

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

The outgoing isn't lower than the incoming... It's higher.

Look again.

750W, Test 1 and two.

its 42 in, 38 out.

But then again, High Ambient Tests are bullshit for noise comparisation because some units just don't like high ambient and rev the fan up so its very loud at 40°C 

 

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

The ambient temperature shouldn't change their relative noise and RPM levels by a significant amount.

You don't know that.

And some units go crazy under high ambient temperature.

And those differences in ambient temperature (even if its just two degrees) can make the difference and you believe that one unit is louder when it would not be the case under normal ambients.

 

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

But the point is that for the Focus Plus Gold this isn't true. What I originally said:

That wasn't the point.

The point/claim was that a higher wattage PSU = less noise.

And that statement is not true. It can't really be less noisy.

 

At best both units are equal with no advantage of the higher wattage one - as long as we talk about the same Layout.

The only possibility that a higher wattage can be better is a different plattform - wich isn't changed that much...

 

[Sidra]

21 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Except that doesn't appear to be the case with the Focus Plus Gold

If I'm reading it correctly, the delta temperature was actually lower on the 850w indicating a lower temperature.

I just pasted the sources I thought I needed to illustrate my point.

The outgoing isn't lower than the incoming... It's higher.

 

The ambient temperature shouldn't change their relative noise and RPM levels by a significant amount.

I never said that it wasn't possible that for other units higher wattage units might end up being louder. But the point is that for the Focus Plus Gold this isn't true. What I originally said:

I didn't deny that other units might be louder with higher wattage units.

@DocSwag so i should go for 850 or not?

[Stefan Payne]

51 minutes ago, Sidra said:

@DocSwag so i should go for 850 or not?

No, get the RMx that's the quieter unit.

The Seasonic Focus is on the louder side -> https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/seasonic_focus_gold/s09.php

 

[geo3]

lol. 450w would be more than enough for that system.

[Sidra]

9 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, get the RMx that's the quieter unit.

The Seasonic Focus is on the louder side -> https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/seasonic_focus_gold/s09.php

 

Thanks.. 

[redsquirrel0249]

22 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

they should be avoided at all costs.

Reading reviews

Reputable reviews recommend calculators, but they do overestimate what you need. But you don't take it to be a minimum requirement, it's just for ballparking.

[Blebekblebek]

Why waste money for new psu at all?
I don't get it.

 

The paranoia here is ridiculous, it's like fear mongering.

[Stefan Payne]

3 hours ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

Reputable reviews recommend calculators, but they do overestimate what you need. But you don't take it to be a minimum requirement, it's just for ballparking.

Try i7-3930K

RX480 OC (1330MHz Core)

4x 2GiB + 4x 4GiB

1 SSD

1 7200rpm HDD

 

And look at what those PSU calculators put out.

 

I measured something like 350W with a good quality, 80plus Platinum PSU. On the Wall.

 

 

So no, those things aren't even in the Ballpark when overestimating by 50-100%. Guessing the consumption yourself isn't less accurate.

Especially when you loose money or buy a shitty high wattage PSU instead of a good, lower wattage one.

[redsquirrel0249]

11 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

I measured something like 350W with a good quality, 80plus Platinum PSU. On the Wall.

Cooler Master calcs it up at 421w, which is obviously more, but not overkill. The product it recommends is overkill: a 650w psu. You'd only want about 400, 450. And like you mentioned, you can get away with 350.

 

Efficiency curves also play a role in this, because you can generally get better power efficiency if you don't max out your wattage, anyway.

 

Also consider that you're using a platinum PSU, which is probably pretty quality if it can manage that efficiency. So others probably would like headroom if they're getting a cheap 80+ or non-80+ supply.

 

I mean, I get your point. If someone uses that, then just buys the recommended PSU without looking at the relevant wattage result or any other information, they could easily overbuy. I just think it's good for what it's worth.

[Stefan Payne]

18 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

Cooler Master calcs it up at 421w, which is obviously more, but not overkill. The product it recommends is overkill: a 650w psu. You'd only want about 400, 450. And like you mentioned, you can get away with 350.

Yeah, but there are no decent quality 350W PSU in this day and age.

they are all group regulated, so you have to go for at least 400W anyway.

Well, there are one or two 350W with DC-DC

18 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

Efficiency curves also play a role in this, because you can generally get better power efficiency if you don't max out your wattage, anyway.

not really.

The Efficiency Curves are very flat these days, especially if we talk about 230VAC, the differences aren't that huge.

We are talking at around 1,5% between peak and 80%, another 1% for the last 20% - at worst.

 

The Problem: The difference between two PSU of the same series also can be 1 or two per cent....

 

18 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

Also consider that you're using a platinum PSU, which is probably pretty quality if it can manage that efficiency. So others probably would like headroom if they're getting a cheap 80+ or non-80+ supply.

I also used a 400W Silver unit with that system.

The Platinum was just mentioned because of the consumption of the rig. With other PSU the measured consumption is higher.

And with the Silver one I've measured ~400W or so...

 

18 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

I mean, I get your point. If someone uses that, then just buys the recommended PSU without looking at the relevant wattage result or any other information, they could easily overbuy. I just think it's good for what it's worth.

Yeah and you don't get any benefit of the higher wattage unit.

In many cases you can get some noticable disadvantages. like ~50% higher fan speed on Bitfenix whisper M 650W over 450 or 550W.

 

 

But that's not the worst part.

That is that people tend to buy rather shitty 650W units like Corsair VS, Thermaltake Germany series or Cooler Master Master Watt Lite or the glorified Seasonic S12II/M12II series over a way better 80plus Gold unit with 450 or 550W.

 

Here in Germany those 650-700W PSU are about the same price as a Bitfenix Formula 450W...