Actual definitions for pirate and steal...

[Paul Rudd]

Pirate: use or reproduce (another's work) for profit without permission, usually in contravention of patent or copyright.

Steal: take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

 

Doesn't this mean that if you just download games for free straight from the internet to play them it is NOT pirating and it is NOT stealing? Since I am not getting any profit and since I did not take anything from anyone. In order for something to be stolen, doesn't it have to disappear from its original owner?

[Lathlaer]

Yes, it means exactly that but only if you use this very specific definition of piracy.

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

Since I am not getting any profit

You're profiting the cost of what you pirate by default, since you did not spend money but are still using licensed software.

 

5 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

doesn't it have to disappear from its original owner?

Stealing something does not automatically mean you're explicitly taking something AWAY. You're just taking something you have no right or privilege to.

[Lathlaer]

To expand on my previous post, I just wanted to point out that the definition you posted isn't something universally agreed upon.

 

Let's see what dictionary.com has to say about the issue:

 

Quote

to pirate

to use or reproduce (a book, an invention, etc.) without authorization or legal right)

 

Notice the lack of "profit" here.

 

In the end it doesn't matter because it's not important what common sense says about the definition of piracy, the only thing that matters is the legal definition.

 

Now, commonly spoken words definitions do have a role in the jurisprudence but that role is secondary in the sense that legal definition can highlight certain aspects of a word or phrase and ommit others.

[Paul Rudd]

@Drak3 I don't understand how money is gained from playing a video game by default. Where is the money if someone didn't spend it? As for using licensed software, what if that license did not exist because it was modified and taken out? What if those rights and privileges did not exist because they were modified and taken out?

[AshleyAshes]

Using random dictionary definitions for 'piracy' is really not going to help you in a technical argument here.  Specifically, theft and piracy are matters of LAW, tough piracy is under CIVIL law rather than CRIMINAL law in most western nations.  Despite that, if you want to engage in a 'technical argument' about the definitions, you need to use the LEGAL definitions that have been codified in a specific region.  You'll find the  'Yeah but WEBSTERS defines 'piracy' as,...' defence NOT very effective if you're getting sued for piracy.

[Paul Rudd]

@Lathlaer What if authorization and legal rights were modified and taken out? Then when someone downloads and plays the modified version, these authorizations and legal rights are not a part of the modified version anymore. Right? Forgive me if I'm a bit stupid here. I slept a lot during school.

 

@AshleyAshes If what you say is true, and I believe it is, then how come the LAW does not arrest millions of people on a daily basis?

[Drak3]

Just now, A Random Dude said:

 I don't understand how money is gained from playing a video game by default. Where is the money if someone didn't spend it?

You'd gained an asset worth 'x' amount for less than 'x' ammount, you've pulled a profit.

 

3 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

As for using licensed software, what if that license did not exist because it was modified and taken out? What if those rights and privileges did not exist because they were modified and taken out?

That's not how licensing works. Removing DRM that checks for the license does not remove the owner's right to profit or denial of usage, nor does it give you the right or privilege to use it.

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, A Random Dude said:

@AshleyAshes If what you say is true, and I believe it is, then how come the LAW does not arrest millions of people on a daily basis?

Let's go back to what I said here:

 

Quote

Specifically, theft and piracy are matters of LAW, tough piracy is under CIVIL law rather than CRIMINAL law in most western nations. 

See where I said CIVIL LAW?  Things that fall under civil law are not crimes, that is CRIMINAL law.  In most all places (It's hard to say this UNIVERSALLY because laws do vary by region) you can't be arrested for violations of CIVIL law, you can only be SUED.

 

Let me put it this say:

 

I beak into your shed and I steal your lawn mower.  You can call the police and I go to jail or get fined for theft.  Because that is a CRIME.

 

On the OTHER hand what if you LOAN me your lawn mower for ONE day and I DON'T return it and I lock it up in my garage?  You can't call the police because you and I made an AGREEMENT a CONTRACT and now both sides are disputing that contract.  You have to SUE me for it.  This is a civil matter not a criminal matter.  It is on YOU, the original owner to dispute my failure to return the lawn mower.  You would hope that the court finds in your favour and orders the lawn mower returned.  Now, ignoring a court order IS a crime and I could potentially be arrested for refusing to obey once the court order has been issued.  Oh and you can't steal the lawn mower back from me, then you are breaking and entering.

[Princess Luna]

Piracy laws depends lots on each individual country, some places are far more lenient than others on subjects like torrenting.

[Paul Rudd]

@Drak3 So you're saying that since objects are profitable, they are profit themselves? Meaning someone can pay their rent with old magazines without selling the magazines for money first? And also, how are there rights on something that has been changed into something else? Especially if this something else is nowhere to be found but on someones random computer somewhere. Again, forgive me if I'm a bit stupid to understand things clearly. I slept throughout school.

 

@AshleyAshes Then how come the millions of people playing video games for free are NOT sued on a daily basis?

[Razor Blade]

Laws aside, If you're obtaining some sort of digital product free through means of illegal distribution then it is piracy. Your personal use is still profiting by consumption of the product without paying. It would be like trying to argue that sneaking into the movie theater should be okay. The movie is shown regardless of if you paid or not right? Well everyone else paid for that movie... Your profit was the $13 you didn't pay to watch the movie. Same with pirated video games. That $10, $20, $40, $60 you didn't pay is your profit.

[3 Minute Reviewer]

9 hours ago, A Random Dude said:

@Drak3 So you're saying that since objects are profitable, they are profit themselves? Meaning someone can pay their rent with old magazines without selling the magazines for money first? And also, how are there rights on something that has been changed into something else? Especially if this something else is nowhere to be found but on someones random computer somewhere. Again, forgive me if I'm a bit stupid to understand things clearly. I slept throughout school.

Dont think of it as actual cash, think of it as a gain and a loss. If you get something without giving anything up, then you have gained and "profited". 

 

9 hours ago, A Random Dude said:

@AshleyAshes Then how come the millions of people playing video games for free are NOT sued on a daily basis?

Maybe some of these people are hard to identify? They might be using VPNs or things of that nature to make it hard to track who is dowloading. It also would be relatively inefficient to sue all these people over possibly insignificant amounts of $. I view this as more of a moral/ethical issue than anything else

[Lathlaer]

2 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

Then how come the millions of people playing video games for free are NOT sued on a daily basis?

Because it's not practical to sue everybody who pirates. 

[Paul Rudd]

@Razor Blade Then why are millions of people NOT penalized in some way for playing video games they downloaded for free? And movies shown in theaters are $13 nowadays? Good lord. 

 

@Lathlaer Could you explain what practical means? And then explain why it's not practical to sue everybody who pirates. 

[AshleyAshes]

2 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

@AshleyAshes Then how come the millions of people playing video games for free are NOT sued on a daily basis?

First, remember, the government doesn't help in a civil case.  There is no prosecution by the government and there is no legal aid.  It's two individuals even if in this case one individual is likely a corporation.

 

First, you need evidence.  Now you do see some of this in some regions, particularly where torrent cloud's are watched for all IPs and the copyright holders sent nastygrams via ISPs and such or in some cases even DO engage in law suits.  So in a lot of cases even PROVING WHO pirated what is a HUGE burden.  If all the records are kept in a centralised place and there's no way to legally access that data then you have no access to any evidence.

 

Second, all of this requires LAWYERS and those guys cost MONEY.  Effectively it consumes a corporation's financial resources to sue someone.  So how much is it worth to go out and sue 10 000 random shmucks in 10 000 random civil cases, even if you can build a solid case?  That's a WHOOOOOOLE lot of billable hours for lawyers.  That is a HUGELY expensive endeavour.

 

So why do you sue?  The big fish.  You go after the HOSTS of pirated content and while you see stories like that, it's a complicated process and far from an 'easy slam dunk'.

 

So yeah, individuals are usually not sued because it is hard to prove and resource intensive even if you think you can prove it.  Not to mention the individual payoff is limited,

[Razor Blade]

2 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

@AshleyAshes Then how come the millions of people playing video games for free are NOT sued on a daily basis?

Just because they aren't sued doesn't mean they couldn't be. It would be easier to go after one individual and "make and example" out of them... For an example I remember... back in 2003 the RIAA took 261 people to court and sued them for sharing music...for the next 5 years tens of thousands more were sued.

 

Source: https://www.eff.org/wp/riaa-v-people-five-years-later

 

It may not happen today. It may not happen tomorrow. It may not happen at all. But if it does...do you have thousands of dollars to defend yourself in court?

[Paul Rudd]

@kmathieu2220 I thought profit was just financial gain? And what about the millions of people downloading and playing games for free that are EASY to identify? Be sure to take note that I'm talking about millions of people here. It seems you are saying it's not worth the money to sue all these people.

[Razor Blade]

Just now, A Random Dude said:

@kmathieu2220 I thought profit was just financial gain? And what about the millions of people downloading and playing games for free that are EASY to identify? Be sure to take note that I'm talking about millions of people here. It seems you are saying it's not worth the money to sue all these people.

Lawsuits are expensive. If you file, you have to front that money and most of the people your suing have no money.

 

It is a lot easier to go after some of the large sources for pirated material.

https://torrentfreak.com/sony-files-lawsuits-block-video-game-piracy-sites-170519/

 

There is almost no way to stop pirating but the industry is constantly trying to control the bleeding.

[Paul Rudd]

@AshleyAshes Don't you mean 1,000,000 random shmucks? And so you're saying the law and game developers both don't value penalizing millions of people without being paid a lot of money correct? 

[AshleyAshes]

6 minutes ago, Razor Blade said:

Just because they aren't sued doesn't mean they couldn't be. It would be easier to go after one individual and "make and example" out of them... For an example I remember... back in 2003 the RIAA took 261 people to court and sued them for sharing music...for the next 5 years tens of thousands more were sued.

 

Source: https://www.eff.org/wp/riaa-v-people-five-years-later

 

It may not happen today. It may not happen tomorrow. It may not happen at all. But if it does...do you have thousands of dollars to defend yourself in court?

Good example, I'd not followed up on the aftermath of that.

 

For sure it's a PR mess and we've not seen things like that since.  But it is a risk one takes and MOST people can't afford a legal defence even if they could effectively and aggressively settle for much less than the original demands or even press something to trial and try to get it dismissed.  Frankly, a lot of people can't even afford the several thousand a settlement would cost OR the several thousand an effective legal defence would cost.

 

You def could face some serious financial pain for piracy but the vast majority dismiss it since 'everybody does it' and only a very small minority suffer the consequences.

[Paul Rudd]

@Razor Blade So you're saying the law and game developers and lawyers don't value or care enough to penalizing millions of people pirating games without being paid a lot of money right?

 

@AshleyAshes So you're saying the law, game developers and lawyers dismiss piracy, is that correct?

[Lathlaer]

9 hours ago, A Random Dude said:

Could you explain what practical means? And then explain why it's not practical to sue everybody who pirates

Off the top of my head:

 

1. It's internet, people are living in different countries and it's hard to track them

2. They might be using VPN's in which case it's even harder to track them

3. Usually the amount of work to get a legal proceeding in such a case is nowhere near worthy of the benefits.

4. Likewise the legal fees.

 

And as other mentioned, different countries, different rules. For instance, contrary to what @AshleyAshes says, my country's crimal codex does define piracy and it's not a civil matter. You can get from 3 months up to 5 years for copying or distributing pirated software. 

 

9 hours ago, A Random Dude said:

So you're saying

 

9 hours ago, A Random Dude said:

So you're saying the law

I'm getting a weird Jordan Peterson interview vibe here.

[AshleyAshes]

7 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

@Razor Blade So you're saying the law and game developers and lawyers don't value or care enough to penalizing millions of people pirating games without being paid a lot of money right?

It's a question of financial resources.

 

1) What is the PR cost of suing individual pirates?

2) What is the direct financial cost of funding lawsuits against pirates?

3) How many of the pirates are lost sales?  Would 100% of the pirates have bought the product if piracy was impossible or did a number only acquire it BECAUSE it was free and would not have had they had to pay?

4) In the end is there a net gain to have over the actual financial cost of whatever number of units were actually lost sales?
5) Are there BETTER ways to spend this money?  Is there something we could do to attract paying users and fund that rather than lawsuits?  (Why do you think so many games have online functions now?  It's a LOT harder to pirate an online game than a single player game)  Are there bigger fish we could sue and focus our resources on?  If we sue and shut down the bigger fish does this drive us more unit sales?

See?  The situation is a LOT more nuanced than 'Piracy bad, get the bad guys or don't get the bad guys?'.

[Razor Blade]

7 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

@Razor Blade So you're saying the law and game developers and lawyers don't value or care enough to penalizing millions of people pirating games without being paid a lot of money right?

How would you be able to penalize millions of people in any sort of practical way that makes business sense? do you have any idea how much money it would take to file a million civil lawsuits?