iPhone 8 and X officially announced

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, Mr Bacon said:

So we should just stick to Aux until the end of time just because it's more available? I thought this was a tech forum where we advocate for the latest and greatest??

 

Everyone makes aux because it's widely available, but if a major player stops using it. What do you think happens? The shift of focus starts to be pulled away and suddenly it's no longer more available than the other. Other manufacturers are already following Apple's lead with it. They wouldn't if they didn't see a benefit to doing so.

The main point of innovation is to solve problems and make life easier. Removing a jack and forcing people to carry around an adapter is no innovation. It solves nothing and introduces more problems. 

[Mr Bacon]

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

The main point of innovation is to solve problems and make life easier. Removing a jack and forcing people to carry around an adapter is no innovation. It solves nothing and introduces more problems. 

The technology itself does solve problems and makes life easier. That is innovation. What you're misconstruing to be a lack of innovation is market immaturity more than anything. By removing the Aux port, what do you think happens to the headphone market? Apple users are going to want something that doesn't require an adapter. Supply will meet that demand and the issue of the adapter will be irrelevant. I recall seeing a set from pioneer I believe that had a passthrough built in that would allow you to charge your phone while you listened.

[mynameisjuan]

4 minutes ago, Mr Bacon said:

The technology itself does solve problems and makes life easier. That is innovation. What you're misconstruing to be a lack of innovation is market immaturity more than anything. By removing the Aux port, what do you think happens to the headphone market? Apple users are going to want something that doesn't require an adapter. Supply will meet that demand and the issue of the adapter will be irrelevant. I recall seeing a set from pioneer I believe that had a passthrough built in that would allow you to charge your phone while you listened.

Ok so you want headphone makers to switch all their AUX connectors to lightning. Cool, so now we wait for my car, stereo, external speaker, electronic drumset....etc... to all switch to lighting connectors......because to you all that matters is it works for your iphone and not the millions of devices that use aux. Seriously the iphone is the ONLY device, even in apples line up, that using lightning. If you are going to bother changing it change it to type-c so even the macbook could use it. Like your logic would make you require an adapter to use it on another apple device....like holy shit.

 

And you call me immature because im not looking at the big picture for this "innovation". Changing the connector for literally no reason is not fucking innovation.

[Mr Bacon]

Just now, mynameisjuan said:

Ok so you want headphone makers to switch all their AUX connectors to lightning. Cool, so now we wait for my car, stereo, external speaker, electronic drumset....etc... to all switch to lighting connectors......because to you all that matters is it works for your iphone and not the millions of devices that use aux. Seriously the iphone is the ONLY device, even in apples line up, that using lightning.

 

And you call me immature because im not looking at the big picture for this "innovation". Changing the connector for literally no reason is not fucking innovation.

I didn't call you immature? I said the market is immature. Did you even read my post? Also don't iPads use lightning? I never said anything about headphone makers switching all of their headphones to lightning. I said they'd meet the demand from Apple users. Cool your jets man, read through what I'm actually saying.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Apple holding on to lightning and making this move. It'd make more sense if they would have switched to USB-C that way the entire market could support the move away from Aux to USB-C. Obviously Aux isn't going anywhere soon so there'll still be products/adapters to fill the void until USB-C/Lightning takes over.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, Mr Bacon said:

Also don't iPads use lightning?

They have 3.5mm jacks, pyo. It's only the iPhones, pyo.

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, Mr Bacon said:

I didn't call you immature? I said the market is immature.

Yeah I read that line wrong

 

1 minute ago, Mr Bacon said:

I never said anything about headphone makers switching all of their headphones to lightning.

Then what was the point of your argument since this is what you said:

 

12 minutes ago, Mr Bacon said:

Apple users are going to want something that doesn't require an adapter

You cannot not require an adapter unless the aux is now lightning or you use bluetooth.

[Mr Bacon]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

They have 3.5mm jacks, pyo. It's only the iPhones, pyo.

Yea, but they do have a lightning port so they could use lightning based headphones. I realize that's insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but I didn't want it to get lost

 

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Yeah I read that line wrong

 

Then what was the point of your argument since this is what you said:

 

You cannot not require an adapter unless the aux is now lightning or you use bluetooth.

Yea I was thinking along the lines of aux actually being lightning now. They'd still make headphones for Aux or USB-C though.

[Drak3]

Just now, Mr Bacon said:

Yea, but they do have a lightning port so they could use lightning based headphones. I realize that's insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but I didn't want it to get lost

 

Yeah, but it can also use 3.5mm headphones.

[Mr Bacon]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Yeah, but it can also use 3.5mm headphones.

Bruh lol

[suicidalfranco]

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

Phone manufacturers HAVEN'T been putting good DACs in and seemingly won't. This seems like a invalid argument to me. Either way, we now have the choice. You can buy cheap if you don't care or buy higher and get good quality sound. The latter was restricted before due to the internal DAC.

HTC, LG, ZTE, Sony just to name a few. Just because apple doesn't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't too

 

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

More power doesn't necessarily mean just higher volume. It means that headphone manufacturers can design with better materials or more power hungry designs that provide better bass and/or better sound quality all around.

the aux, or TRS connector, can draw more power, all it needs is an extra ring and, unlike lightning/usbC would be compatible with all aux connectors weather it's 3 rings, 2 rings or single ring

TRRRS: left, right, mic, power, ground

TRRS: left, right, mic, ground

TRS: left, right, ground

 

at that point if you have a jack that can draw more power means that you could still have your fancy RGB led sync nonsense on your headphones with the aux, you can have more volume.

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

The two points above would suggest otherwise. That said, reading the article they seemed to notice a very obvious difference. Do you really need a double-blind if the difference is so obvious?

the verge's argument is that:

"A lot of power would be meaningless if it's not delivered cleanly, and the Lightning-connected Cipher DAC augments the amplifier brilliantly here. Both sets of headphones sound vastly better when going through their own cable and audio processing."

1. a audio signal is current based, not voltage base, and therefore less susceptible to noise or interference, and even then it would take hundreds of meters of wiring before it even becomes an issue

2. really that desperate that you want a DAC? fine, still don't see why the headphone should also be lightning in that case, since the signal coming out of a DAC is... you know: DIGITAL to ANALOG CONVERTER

a thin DAC betterthanwhatsonyouriPhone that ends in aux. mind blowned, I know. And don't fool yourself that this was only possible because "Apple forced the industry by dropping me aux", shit like have been lurking around even during the 30-pin days.

Then they follow up with:

"The EL-8 with a Cipher cable just embarrasses the iPhone's own audio processing."

no shit Sherlock. Guess what? fire burns too if you touch it (The more you know!)

Everything is better than what's on any iPhone. They wanted to save money, others don't, don't blame aux for Apple being cheap when it comes to audio.

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

EQ is EQ, there's no arguing that. That's not what the point is though. You can load a custom EQ for that particular headphone instead of having one EQ set on your phone that would apply to every headphone. That's a big benefit imo and one that aux can't do.

you mean the shit headphones OEM already where pushing out with their apps? Or the fact that each, recognisable, OEM, have a distinct sound signature simply based on how they build their headphones? cause yeah, been there, done that, aux didn't stop in any possible way.

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

It is a benefit now. Digital output allows the use of an external DAC which is one of the main benefits lightning brings. That said if there are more benefits in the future they will be ones that aux can not utilize.

 

human hearing range: 20Hz to 20KHz (around 15kHz as you reach a more mature age)

already with CDs you could reproduce sounds between 10Hz and 22kHz.

Comes a point where the digital benefits which translates only to more sampling bits becomes just snake oil. And in the audiophile community, we've been way over that shit ages ago, why do you think valves are still highly regarded instead of your run of the mill solid state dacs?

And apply point 3 here again: don't need to remove the headphone jack if all you want is a DAC and don't need to remove it from the headphone cause the signal coming of that is analog anyway

the rest of your quotes about democracy leds: take reply 2 about TRRRS, add signal analyser in your headphone, add leds, ??????, profit.

 

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

Although I would be curious to see what article you read that lead you to your own conclusion.

I haven't really read any specific articles.

 

 

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

Phone manufacturers HAVEN'T been putting good DACs in and seemingly won't. This seems like a invalid argument to me. Either way, we now have the choice. You can buy cheap if you don't care or buy higher and get good quality sound. The latter was restricted before due to the internal DAC.

Yes they have.

HTC have at a few occations put in DACs they deem better than what Qualcomm offers.

Samsung used to use some good Wolfson DACs in their Exynos models.

LG is trying to push good DACs as a selling point, especially with their V30.

Apple has typically had good DACs from Cirrus.

 

Here is the thing with the test from Verge, it was not a blind test. when it comes to audio, we humans are extremely gullible.

ANY audio testing that is not a blind test is, sadly, useless. The reason is that just the idea that there is something different (even if there is no difference) will cause the person to experience things differently. Here is a great talk about audio myths which I recommend you watch (or actually, the Verge author should watch it). Watch the first 4 minutes if you can't be bothered to watch the full 60 minutes. The 5 first is the thing I am talking about here, which makes the Verge article null and void.

 

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

More power doesn't necessarily mean just higher volume. It means that headphone manufacturers can design with better materials or more power hungry designs that provide better bass and/or better sound quality all around.

IEMs and headphones are pretty easy to drive.

You'd have to go pretty high end in terms of headphones before you start running into issues like that (assuming the amp in the phone is good).

I don't see people using their 1000 dollar headphones on the go, connected to their smartphone anytime soon. If you're at home then if you care about audio quality you probably want a proper DAC and AMP, not just whatever they put into the headphones.

 

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

The two points above would suggest otherwise. That said, reading the article they seemed to notice a very obvious difference. Do you really need a double-blind if the difference is so obvious?

Yes, because the "obvious" difference might just have been placebo.

Seriously, an audio test that is not a blind test is worthless. Even if you are aware of it you will not be able to avoid steering your perception of it. Simply saying "hey, listen to the bass" will cause someone to perceive the music differently. If you expect a difference then you will hear a difference, even if it does not exist.

 

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

EQ is EQ, there's no arguing that. That's not what the point is though. You can load a custom EQ for that particular headphone instead of having one EQ set on your phone that would apply to every headphone. That's a big benefit imo and one that aux can't do. It also suggests that more settings or features could be added or controlled with the abilities that lightning has. Things like controllable RGB headphones perhaps. Admittedly that is just speculation on my part.

1

Saving an EQ on the headphones is neat.

Controllable RGB? Come on... RGB on headphones is ridiculous. You'd look like a walking Christmas tree.

I get your point that they can add things in the future, but that does not make it a reason to upgrade now. Especially not when it has big drawbacks like:

1) Increasing cost (because now you need duplicate DACs and AMPs)

2) Needing adapters (for converting to 3.5mm)

3) Possibly driver issues (Microsoft has been behind in terms of USB audio class support, and Apple likes doing their own things. Have fun blowing several hundred of thousands of dollars on a pair of headphones which only works on a phone from one specific company, which might change standard in the future)

4) The connector is harder to plug in (square instead of circular).

 

 

This is also ignoring the fact that they could easily have kept the headphone jack as well as the lightning connector. I know giving users choice is not something Apple likes doing, but if Lighting truly was so superior to 3.5mm then it would have died out naturally. Not by execution.

[Unhelpful]

2 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

So we should just stick to Aux until the end of time just because it's more available? I thought this was a tech forum where we advocate for the latest and greatest??

I agree with you 100%, but something to keep in mind is that a suitable replacement for aux has not come forward. All replacements for it have glaring flaws that it doesn't have.

[Nizkus]

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Snip

In this case abx test would be meaningless since audeze headphones add sound processing when using lightning connector so it would be impossible to match the sound with ones that are using trs connector.

 

That also makes the whole Verge article dumb as it is not comparing aux against lightning but two different EQ settings (more or less) with each other.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

Replacing the 3.5mm jack with lightning or USB-C would be easy enough ... if there was a good incentive for people to switch. 

 

headphones with active noise cancelling would be a perfect example.  Bose's QC20 IEMs have microphones on the outside of the earpieces and a processing unit (with its own battery) near the jack to cancel out whatever it picks up from the microphones.  Considering the size of the thing, it would be great if we could just use USB-C to transfer the microphones' signals to the phone and use the phone's CPU to do the noise cancelling.   That would eliminate the need for such contraptions.

 

 

As mentioned earlier in this thread, having the phone recognize the headphones and giving them their custom EQ profile would be another use.

Then again how often do people change headphones? 

 

Apart from those 2 uses, I see absolutely no reason why one would want to move away from the 3.5mm jack.  Unless you want your Lightning/USB-C port to be loose as hell within a year so that it keeps disconnecting and you have an excuse to throw your phone away. 

[Mr Bacon]

@suicidalfranco & @LAwLz okay really guys. I found ONE article that yes, has some flaws, but it had valid points I thought. I'm having to have a discussion between multiple people. It's like 5 on 1 in here. I get that Lightning is unpopular and that Aux could work still. If someone can point me to an article or something that can give me a rundown on why lightning is garbage and we need the aux master race to return I'd be more than happy to read it and agree. I'm not going to keep going back and forth arguing point by point because I honestly don't have enough detailed knowledge and it's getting annoying having every single detail of my arguments torn apart with no acknowledgement of any possibilty of something making sense.

 

I just don't understand. If everyone hates it so much. Why did Apple do it and why are other phone manufacturers beginning to follow suit? There has to be a real, sensible reason. Companies that big don't do something that rash without cause.

 

I'm trying to make sense of the chaos, but everyone seems hell bent on dismissing any possibilities.

 

White flag. I give. I should've known better.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Mr Bacon said:

If someone can point me to an article or something that can give me a rundown on why lightning is garbage and we need the aux master race to return I'd be more than happy to read it and agree.

1) It costs more. Every time you want to make something that uses Lighting you have to pay Apple a fee. This is most likely why Apple is pushing Lighting instead of 3.5mm as well. Not only that, but you now need to include a DAC and AMP inside every pair of ear- and headphones.If you had 3 pairs of headphones you only had 1 DAC before (inside the phone). Now you will need 4 (one inside the phone, plus one in each pair of headphones). So it's added cost for no particular reason

 

2) USB audio drivers are a mess. Not in terms of specifications but in terms of support. It took Microsoft 7 years to implement USB audio class 2 in Windows, and they only did it for Windows 10. Chances are Apple uses some proprietary protocol so there is no chance that we will ever see a pair of headphones work with both Lighting and USB type C. Therefore, we will need to throw our headphones in the trash if we ever want to switch eco-system.  Hell, with the way things are currently you can't even use the same set of headphones within the Apple eco-system. Your iPhone headphones doesn't work with your Macbook for example.

 

3) As it is right now, you haven't actually gained anything. You used to be able to use either Lighting headphones, or 3.5mm headphones. You used to be able to for example charge your phone while listening to music too. That is not the case anymore. You only lost things when Apple removed the headphone jack. You didn't gain anything in return.

When you lose the ability to do something, without getting anything in return, then you have to ask the question "how was this change for the better?". The answer is: It wasn't.

 

4) The connector is worse. With 3.5mm the connector is circular. It's easy to plugin because you do not have to align anything. You just jam it in. That's not so easy with the Lighting or USB type C connector though.

 

 

I used to have a longer list but I have lost it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mr Bacon said:

I just don't understand. If everyone hates it so much. Why did Apple do it and why are other phone manufacturers beginning to follow suit? There has to be a real, sensible reason. Companies that big don't do something that rash without cause.

Apple most likely did it because they get a licensing fee every time someone uses the Lighting connector. Making people buy Lighting headphones also locks the users into the Apple eco-system more (making them less likely to buy something else in the future) because their headphones doesn't work on anything else.

Other phone manufacturers are following suit because they are stupid and desperate. Although I wouldn't really say that many are following this idiotic trend. Motorola has done it, and so has HTC. LG and Samsung are not though.

 

I guess one reason might be that it makes the phones less complex to make. Probably saves next to no money to add, but the less work you have to put into designing and manufacturing the phone the better (for the manufacturer, not the consumer).

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

 

 

White flag. I give. I should've known better.

 

Just ask more questions before drawing conclusions, especially in audio.   Something I have learned in the last 30 years (enthusiast, live sound engineer, Custom P.A installer and on the side consultant), is that you can effectively ignore most of what you have ever heard. Is there a better solution than 3.5mm jack (it's not called an aux)?  in some cases, for a phone (mobile music player), nope at best it means apple can make their phone 1.5mm smaller.

 

 

 

 

[mynameisjuan]

8 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

I just don't understand. If everyone hates it so much.

Because its an unneeded transition. Removal of the jack is just an annoyance and the quality of a good DAC vs lightning connector is moot as a good DAC will still win in quality. 

 

Also if you want headphone makes to make lightning versions along side AUX ones then the lightning ones are going to be more expensive because now they have to pay apple and then people who want the lightning versions are going to bitch that they have to pay more and then the AUX versions are going to be more to match them and make the idiots happy. 

 

The main problem is this is a lightning connector. A connector on one fucking device line (i dont care that ipads have them too) and Apple did it to be assholes and have their own licensed property. If this was type-c then I might consider typc-c headphones because guess what? its free and it becoming more and more common to  ALL DEVICES, PCs, laptops, phones....the MACBOOK!! Why cant you understand forcing a shift to a new standard on one device to affect ALL other manufactures is retarded?

[Mr Bacon]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Just ask more questions before drawing conclusions, especially in audio.   Something I have learned in the last 30 years (enthusiast, live sound engineer, Custom P.A installer and on the side consultant), is that you can effectively ignore most of what you have ever heard. Is there a better solution than 3.5mm jack (it's not called an aux)?  in some cases, for a phone (mobile music player), nope at best it means apple can make their phone 1.5mm smaller.

 

 

 

 

Well, the thing I've learned in the past 10 years of forums is that if you just state what you think neutrally you get a very bland or non-existent response. Sometimes you have to state what you think without having all the facts in order to have a meaningful discussion. Although in this case I don't know what I don't know, so that doesn't help. I thought Aux was a very common name for 3.5mm jack? I've seen 3.5mm jacks labeled as aux in cars before and I known I've seen it referenced that way elsewhere. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding there though.

 

 

1 hour ago, mynameisjuan said:

Because its an unneeded transition. Removal of the jack is just an annoyance and the quality of a good DAC vs lightning connector is moot as a good DAC will still win in quality. 

 

Also if you want headphone makes to make lightning versions along side AUX ones then the lightning ones are going to be more expensive because now they have to pay apple and then people who want the lightning versions are going to bitch that they have to pay more and then the AUX versions are going to be more to match them and make the idiots happy. 

 

The main problem is this is a lightning connector. A connector on one fucking device line (i dont care that ipads have them too) and Apple did it to be assholes and have their own licensed property. If this was type-c then I might consider typc-c headphones because guess what? its free and it becoming more and more common to  ALL DEVICES, PCs, laptops, phones....the MACBOOK!! Why cant you understand forcing a shift to a new standard on one device to affect ALL other manufactures is retarded?

I said earlier that it would've been better if they had switched to USB-C. I don't disagree with you there. You're ignoring all of the, at the very least, semi reasonable things that make lightning more preferable. It's not ALL bad, but you're acting like it is, which makes me less inclined to agree with you. You also conveniently ignored the part where I said other manufacturers are starting to go away from 3.5mm. I would love to hear an explanation for that. As for your last sentence. To be clear, no one is necessarily forcing anyone to shift. You can still use adapters if you prefer. It's up to the consumer if they want lightning based headphones. Neither you or I understand the market well enough to be able to say for certain which way it will go.

[Mr Bacon]

@suicidalfranco

 

I'm feeling a bit renewed today so I'll try to hit on a couple things that I feel somewhat comfortable in knowledge with. I feel like I'm getting attacked a bit on the whole RGB thing. It was just a simple example of communication OK? Doesn't mean thats what they HAVE TO DO.

 

Also, I'd like to see a source somewhere saying that Apple's internal DACs are worse than other phones. I'm honestly curious about that.

 

As I understood it, the entire point of passing audio through the lightning port is that the audio came out as digital so an external DAC could be used instead of what would be put inside the phone. The Aux port would already come out as Analog, no? So a DAC couldn't be used to any effect outside of the phone, correct?

 

 

[mynameisjuan]

46 minutes ago, Mr Bacon said:

starting to go away from 3.5mm. I would love to hear an explanation for that.

Apple is the reason.

 

Thats why a lot of people get upset when apple makes a change because of their following and increase sales cause the market to shift around apple. There was no need to remove the jack and the sales did show that it didnt matter that it had one because people followed the shift and bought BT headphones or just used the adapter because their fan boiism convinced them no jack was fine. But some companies have to be "cool" too and follow the trend which has been shown throughout the years over and over. But manufacturers like Samsung and HTC still feel like AUX ports matter and put good DACs in them as well and doesnt look like they are going anywhere any time soon. 

[suicidalfranco]

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

Also, I'd like to see a source somewhere saying that Apple's internal DACs are worse than other phones. I'm honestly curious about that.

the DAC in the iPhone is the Cirrus Logic 338S1201 and mashable had an in depth analysis on it 

http://mashable.com/2014/09/26/iphone-6-hd-audio/#DgG4OkUO_Pqi

 

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

As I understood it, the entire point of passing audio through the lightning port is that the audio came out as digital so an external DAC could be used instead of what would be put inside the phone.

yes

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

The Aux port would already come out as Analog, no?

yes

4 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

So a DAC couldn't be used to any effect outside of the phone, correct?

you lost me there bud

[Mr Bacon]

Just now, suicidalfranco said:

the DAC in the iPhone is the Cirrus Logic 338S1201 and mashable had an in depth analysis on it 

http://mashable.com/2014/09/26/iphone-6-hd-audio/#DgG4OkUO_Pqi

 

yes

yes

you lost me there bud

Thanks, going to give that a read in a minute. The part where I lost you. I was saying that you can't use a DAC on an aux port because the aux port already sends out in analog. Because an external DAC would need a digital source in order to do the converting, right? Or am I misunderstanding?

[suicidalfranco]

1 minute ago, Mr Bacon said:

Thanks, going to give that a read in a minute. The part where I lost you. I was saying that you can't use a DAC on an aux port because the aux port already sends out in analog. Because an external DAC would need a digital source in order to do the converting, right? Or am I misunderstanding?

yes and what i'm saying is stuff like the audeze theverge was prasing so much is pointless since outside of that external dac there is no benefit tin making a headphone that has a usb wire instead of a jack, hence why alse posted the picture of the external dac that ends in a 3.5 mm jack port. 

But, since you're going to use a headphone with a jack plug anyway, isn't it better to just include the DAC/amp combo in those small thin and streamlined adapters inside the phone anyway? what's the benefit of usb over jack at that point? so far nothing. Even drawing more power is not advantage since, as i shown on the first picture, you can have it on the jack

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, Mr Bacon said:

Well, the thing I've learned in the past 10 years of forums is that if you just state what you think neutrally you get a very bland or non-existent response. Sometimes you have to state what you think without having all the facts in order to have a meaningful discussion. Although in this case I don't know what I don't know, so that doesn't help. I thought Aux was a very common name for 3.5mm jack? I've seen 3.5mm jacks labeled as aux in cars before and I known I've seen it referenced that way elsewhere. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding there though.

 

 

 

 

Aux is short for auxiliary.   In a car it would be an auxiliary input for the head unit.  Meaning a supplementary or second input other than builtin CD/Radio etc. 

 

 

 It's probably a common misconception because many people simply say "aux 3.5mm plug" and stop there with no further explanation or qualification (rarely needed in many reviews).  Not because 3.5 is specifically aux but because the signal connection is auxiliary and the socket type is 3.5mm jack.   

 

The more experience you get in any specific field the more you realise just how little the average person knows about said field and how many misconceptions there are.