Microsoft cuts off Windows 10 (Creators Update) support early for some PCs

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, yathis said:

Since he converted, a few have actually.

converted?  do you think he wasn't always altruistic?

[Akolyte]

I think it's great to encourage users to keep up to date, and make sure you've got top notch security.  But I hate it how Microsoft has changed from a cool operating system for enthusiasts to a weird prison in a matter of 5 years.  I've been using GNU/Linux for the past year, it's got drawbacks, I can't play some games. But it's better even just because Microsoft isn't stuffing their face into everything.  If I put my system to sleep, it won't automatically start up again and start running tasks.  Been using Linux for servers for some time, and with Powershell on Linux, it's a no brainier for me. I run a Windows VM for my development and administration anyway, Linux machine is for gaming, general browsing etc. 

 

Windows 10 officially killed Windows for me. And this is just pushing it even further.  But part of me thinks this is good because it pushes us even closer to the age of the Linux Desktop.  Or maybe not, because my laptop requires a bios flash just to run Linux.   I feel sad now I didn't join my childhood friends in making distros, contributing to libre software. 

Windows Server is okay, but Windows for desktop is pretty dead to me now. 

[yathis]

No, there was a guy who converted Bill Gates to give most of his wealth away.

He converted a few others, like that finance guy Warren Buffet.

 

I forget the who it was.

[captain_to_fire]

5 minutes ago, Mike_The_B0ss said:

 I've been using GNU/Linux for the past year, it's got drawbacks, I can't play some games. But it's better even just because Microsoft isn't stuffing their face into everything.  If I put my system to sleep, it won't automatically start up again and start running tasks.  Been using Linux for servers for some time, and with Powershell on Linux, it's a no brainier for me. I run a Windows VM for my development and administration anyway, Linux machine is for gaming, general browsing etc. 

Ubuntu Mate looks nice

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, yathis said:

No, there was a guy who converted Bill Gates to give most of his wealth away.

He converted a few others, like that finance guy Warren Buffet.

 

I forget the who it was.

 

I still see no evidence that he just became an altruistic person.   He's been in the public eye doing it since the mid 90's and god knows what he used to do before the media started paying attention.

[yathis]

Two different things bruh

One public image

the other giving the majority 95% of your wealth away

[mr moose]

12 minutes ago, yathis said:

Two different things bruh

One public image

the other giving the majority 95% of your wealth away

Are they?  he is the same person in both he has always been, you suggested he converted and that has something to do with giving his money away.   Everything I have read suggests he never really had a conversion experience.   

 

 

[Dr. KEK]

11 hours ago, imreloadin said:

But, but I thought Intel had a "Robust SW & HW Ecosystem built on Decades of investment in software optimization and validations" to prevent this kind of issue...

comments from enterprise marketing material don't really apply to ultra low power chipset meant for handheld devices. come back with snarky comments once any AMD PC product has a leg to stand on. we've been waiting since 2010 for anything remotely competitive - let alone "groundbreaking" - to present itself from AMD

[Doobeedoo]

Wel isn't W10 supposed to be like continous version of sort so I can see it dropping support for older hardware with years pass. 

[imreloadin]

11 hours ago, Dr. KEK said:

comments from enterprise marketing material don't really apply to ultra low power chipset meant for handheld devices. come back with snarky comments once any AMD PC product has a leg to stand on. we've been waiting since 2010 for anything remotely competitive - let alone "groundbreaking" - to present itself from AMD

So the Intel consumer line doesn't have a robust software and hardware ecosystem then? Also I'm sorry but what does AMD have anything to do with Intel products being sent out to pasture by Microsoft?

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, imreloadin said:

So the Intel consumer line doesn't have a robust software and hardware ecosystem then? Also I'm sorry but what does AMD have anything to do with Intel products being sent out to pasture by Microsoft?

It isn't MS that is making them obsolete, it is intel and OEM's.  The article actually says that MS is working with some to make driver updates to keep these devices working. 

Quote

Microsoft is working with us to help provide compatible drivers to address this incompatibility.

 

The title is misleading.

[TetraSky]

So this is only Clovertrail ?

Was scared for a moment that my Baytrail tablet would become an even bigger paper weight. I really should think about selling it...

[GoodBytes]

Update:

 

Microsoft confirms that the issue is that Intel cutting off driver support for the platform, so systems with these chipset will not run the Creators Update properly.

Quote

[These] systems are no longer supported by Intel (End of Interactive Support), and without the necessary driver support, they may be incapable of moving to the Windows 10 Creators Update without a potential performance impact.

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/19/16001366/microsoft-windows-10-creators-update-atom-pcs

 

Microsoft is saying that Anniversary Update will be available for the affected system, and Microsoft will deliver them security updates until 2023. This is the same time as Windows 8.1 extended support ends, which was the OS that these system came with.

 

But most likely, if you have these systems, you probably already upgraded, due to their extreme slowness that these CPUs provided even at the time (barely played 1080p 30fps videos)

[captain_to_fire]

9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft confirms that the issue is that Intel cutting off driver support for the platform, so systems with these chipset will not run the Creators Update properly.

Is it because of the GPU drivers? I know that Clover trail SoCs don't use Intel's own HD Graphics but rather, a Power VR GPU that is also used by older smartphones.

[LAwLz]

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft confirms that the issue is that Intel cutting off driver support for the platform, so systems with these chipset will not run the Creators Update properly.

That just brings up the question, why would the old driver not work if you install the Creator's update?

Did Microsoft change something relating to the driver framework and if so, why? Would this also mean that unless you update your graphics drivers, will things start breaking after installing the update?

 

I believe Microsoft when they say Intel's driver isn't updated, but I am wondering why it would need an update to begin with. It must be because Microsoft changed something, and if so, why?

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

 

I believe Microsoft when they say Intel's driver isn't updated, but I am wondering why it would need an update to begin with. It must be because Microsoft changed something, and if so, why?

 

Ask them, I am sure it's not some complex issue, after all they are working on an update for the systems so clearly they have a work around from their end.

[Dr. KEK]

i bet it would run fine if you popped in a drive with creators update pre-loaded

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Ask them, I am sure it's not some complex issue, after all they are working on an update for the systems so clearly they have a work around from their end.

Dont know how to get in contact with them for questions like that. 

[captain_to_fire]

Just now, LAwLz said:

Dont know how to get in contact with them for questions like that. 

Twitter? Idk...

https://twitter.com/MicrosoftHelps

 

[GoodBytes]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That just brings up the question, why would the old driver not work if you install the Creator's update?

Did Microsoft change something relating to the driver framework and if so, why? Would this also mean that unless you update your graphics drivers, will things start breaking after installing the update?

 

I believe Microsoft when they say Intel's driver isn't updated, but I am wondering why it would need an update to begin with. It must be because Microsoft changed something, and if so, why?

It has to do with the GPU drivers. These Atom chips uses GPU technology licensed from Imagination Technologies. We don't know the details, but either Imagination Technologies have a bug in their drivers that prevents them from working in Windows 10 Creator Update due to bug fixes or security issue fixes (my guess), and they are not willing to help Intel with the drivers. Or maybe the license that Intel has ends in 2017, and the driver is hard coded to limit itself to Windows 10 Anniversary Update max, and Intel is not interested in paying money to renew the license or support. (Keep in mind that Intel wants people to buy new computers.. so why spend money when you can gain? And I think Intel doesn't care as people would blame their machine brand or Windows, instead of Intel)

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

It has to do with the GPU drivers. These Atom chips uses GPU technology licensed from Imagination Technologies. We don't know the details, but either Imagination Technologies have a bug in their drivers that prevents them from working in Windows 10 Creator Update due to bug fixes or security issue fixes (my guess), and they are not willing to help Intel with the drivers. Or maybe the license that Intel has ends in 2017, and the driver is hard coded to limit itself to Windows 10 Anniversary Update max, and Intel is not interested in paying money to renew the license or support. (Keep in mind that Intel wants people to buy new computers.. so why spend money when you can gain? And I think Intel doesn't care as people would blame their machine brand or Windows, instead of Intel)

I find it hard to believe that Intel and/or Imagination would code their drivers to stop working after the Windows 10 Anniversary update.

I think it sounds more likely that Microsoft changed something about the driver APIs, causing the drivers to stop working. That is of course assuming it has actually stopped working and it isn't just one of Microsoft's "let's disable update for this hardware despite it actually working". You know, like they did with Windows 7 and 8.1 updates for some CPUs.

[NinJake]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"let's disable update for this hardware despite it actually working"

Just because something is "working" on the outside doesn't mean there's not some sort of underlying flaw on the inside.

 

I understand why you're wondering why some devices won't be supported for the creators update, but the bottom line is whether or not it's "Microsoft's fault" or "Intel/Imagination's fault", the support is ending either way and there's no changing that now.

 

If you want an OS that receives security updates and doesn't care about the hardware (much) then look at LTS linux flavors. When you buy a Windows OS you should know by now, that eventually you'll need to upgrade.

[LAwLz]

5 minutes ago, NinJake said:

Just because something is "working" on the outside doesn't mean there's not some sort of underlying flaw on the inside.

I don't understand what you mean. Someone literally found a way to disable the CPU check, and once that was done all updates could be installed just like before.

Everything has been confirmed to work both "on the outside" and "inside".

 

10 minutes ago, NinJake said:

I understand why you're wondering why some devices won't be supported for the creators update, but the bottom line is whether or not it's "Microsoft's fault" or "Intel/Imagination's fault", the support is ending either way and there's no changing that now.

I think this is an extremely bad thing because if it is Microsoft's doing then there is a possibility that they will do this to other hardware in the future.

"Sorry, but we don't support AMD Ryzen anymore. You need a new CPU" could be a legitimate message people will get 5 years from now if this is Microsoft's doing and they get away with it.

 

11 minutes ago, NinJake said:

If you want an OS that receives security updates and doesn't care about the hardware (much) then look at LTS linux flavors. When you buy a Windows OS you should know by now, that eventually you'll need to upgrade.

I don't see why I should expect to get fucked and forced to buy new hardware just because I am using Windows since it has never happened with any previous versions of Windows before.

All this hardware specific update nonsense started with Windows 10.

[GoodBytes]

8 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I find it hard to believe that Intel and/or Imagination would code their drivers to stop working after the Windows 10 Anniversary update.

I think it sounds more likely that Microsoft changed something about the driver APIs, causing the drivers to stop working. That is of course assuming it has actually stopped working and it isn't just one of Microsoft's "let's disable update for this hardware despite it actually working". You know, like they did with Windows 7 and 8.1 updates for some CPUs.

Well, Windows 10 Creators Update runs on older hardware, so I doubt Microsoft would specifically target this platform.

Imagination could have blocked it via versioning.. this is not new.. many contracted software maker do this... to ensure that they continuously get support contract. That is why you have company using custom software and can't update to the latest Service Pack, else the software won't run. They haven't renewed support, and so the software that they customer made with the company "does not support the latest update or version of Windows", even thought there is no reason not to. It s VERY shitty and ugly move... not sure how it worked in the long term for companies that do this, but it is done.

 

Alternatively, a section of the driver was not properly coded, was not following MS Windows doc properly, and a security issue fix or implementation of a new feature added to current existing APIs made the existing drivers no longer work properly. I am sure Microsoft knock on Intel doors, and probably Intel said: "We don't want to deal with it.. it is out of support" - type of answer, and so Microsoft has no choice. Maybe if there is a huge backlash, Intel will knock Imagination office with a briefcase of money and the issue will be solved, but, considering that these machines are from 2012, and they were super shitty to start with.. I doubt many people still uses to have a big backlash.

[Mira Yurizaki]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/07/clover-trail-systems-wont-get-windows-10-creators-update-ever/

 

It's more or less confirmed the problem is Imagination Technologies doesn't want to support PowerVR on Windows 10 CU. However, Clover Trail will continue receiving security updates until 2023.