Does the Type-C standard provide power always or does it depend on the implimentation

[b.macpherson]

I can't work out if the HP EliteBook 840 G4 Notebook has the ability to be charged via the Type C port. 

 

Is charging something thats standard as part of the Type C specification? Am I missing something? 

[The Sloth]

it will depend on the implementation 

[Bananasplit_00]

seeing as you can run power through any USB conection it sortof is?

[b.macpherson]

1 minute ago, nerdslayer1 said:

it will depend on the implementation 

that's so damn annoying... Been reading info for over an hour and I can't find an answer from HP... Their product page for the notebooks say that they support HPs USB Type-C dock, but you to the Docks product page, and the notebook isn't on the list of supported devices.

[minibois]

The amount of power it can transfer will depends on the protocol used (USB 3.1 Gen 1, gen 2, Thunderbolt 3, etc.), but generally: yes it can provide power. But, not all laptop manufacturers do the charging via the USB Type C connector.

The laptop mentioned for example has a proprietary HP charger (only of those cilinder ones), it doesn't charge via USB Type C.

[GoodBytes]

24 minutes ago, b.macpherson said:

I can't work out if the HP EliteBook 840 G4 Notebook has the ability to be charged via the Type C port. 

 

Is charging something thats standard as part of the Type C specification? Am I missing something? 

As mentioned by others, the manufacture needs to implement it, and how it works also depends on the manufacture implementation for example:

• Some laptop might break if you plug your power adapter on the wrong USB Type-C port that isn't a charging one
• Some laptop will break if you plug 2 or more USB Type-C power adapter on the system USB Type-C ports. There is no fail safe. (example: latest MacBook Pro)
• Some laptops have no ability to receive power. It can only send power for powered connected devices like USB thumb drives, or external drives.

The amount of power that it can support depends also on the manufacture implementation.

 

Carefully read the system manual (I know, I am funny), to know what your system supports or not, and any precautions.

[b.macpherson]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

As mentioned, the manufacture needs to implement it, and how it works also depends on the manufacture implementation for example:

• Some laptop might break if you plug your power adapter on the wrong USB Type-C port that isn't a charging one
• Some laptop will break if you plug 2 or more USB Type-C power adapter on the system USB Type-C port. There is no fail safe. (example: latest MacBook Pro)
• Some laptops have no ability to receive power. It can only send power for powered connected devices like USB thumb drives, or external drives.

The amount of power that it can support depends also on the manufacture implementation.

 

Carefully read the system manual (I know, I am funny), to know what your system supports or not, and any precautions.

Wow, I had no idea about that latest Macbook Pro. 

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, b.macpherson said:

Wow, I had no idea about that latest Macbook Pro. 

Yup. I suspect all laptop with charging USB Type-C has the same problem. As implementing these safe guard systems are costly, and requires space, especially if you need to transfer a lot of current, specially in a world of thin and portable devices, where every mm on the board counts.

[Sniperfox47]

4 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

• Some laptop might break if you plug your power adapter on the wrong USB Type-C port that isn't a charging one

So long as you have a compliant USB charger and compliant USB-C device this won't be an issue. Non-compliant USB chargers that run vbus hot like cheap Chinese knockoffs or Qualcomm Quickcharge *sigh* chargers may damage your device, but even then any device made by a responsible company should be able to sink 5v and anything more than that only happens if both sides negotiate it. While I can't speak for that specific model, all three HP laptops I've played with that have Type-C but not power delivery have been fine with handling 5v on the port.

 

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

• Some laptop will break if you plug 2 or more USB Type-C power adapter on the system USB Type-C ports. There is no fail safe. (example: latest MacBook Pro)

 

Umm... Where did you hear this? I've done this. The MacBook Pro 2016 literally just chooses whichever power supply is better and charges off that one. If they're both capable of supplying the power  requested, it uses the first one plugged in. With the 4-port variant it doesn't  even matter if you plug both into one side, or opposite sides, or plug 4 chargers in. Power delivery involves the host negotiating for power with each device independently. That's why each PD compatible port needs it's own CC line, and why hubs can only have one PD passthrough port. Again, the power supply only outputs 5v until the host specifically asks that specific power supply, via the cc line, to output more >.>

[GoodBytes]

8 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

So long as you have a compliant USB charger and compliant USB-C device this won't be an issue. Non-compliant USB chargers that run vbus hot like cheap Chinese knockoffs or Qualcomm Quickcharge *sigh* chargers may damage your device, but even then any device made by a responsible company should be able to sink 5v and anything more than that only happens if both sides negotiate it. While I can't speak for that specific model, all three HP laptops I've played with that have Type-C but not power delivery have been fine with handling 5v on the port.

We are talking about 65W+ power adapter feeding on reverse to the USB Type-C that doesn't support charging. Things can go bad if the implementation by the manufacture has no fail safe system against this. Doesn't mean that your HP have no problem that some Acer or whatever with USB Type-C non recharge ability or desktop motherboard with USB Type-C have no problem. Yes, you can be sure someone will plug a laptop 100W power adapter to tehir motherboard thinking they run the system without a power supply, or think can overclock more, or whatever.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Umm... Where did you hear this? I've done this. The MacBook Pro 2016 literally just chooses whichever power supply is better and charges off that one. If they're both capable of supplying the power  requested, it uses the first one plugged in. With the 4-port variant it doesn't  even matter if you plug both into one side, or opposite sides, or plug 4 chargers in. Power delivery involves the host negotiating for power with each device independently. That's why each PD compatible port needs it's own CC line, and why hubs can only have one PD passthrough port. Again, the power supply only outputs 5v until the host specifically asks that specific power supply, via the cc line, to output more >.>

 

[Sniperfox47]

59 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

We are talking about 65W+ power adapter feeding on reverse to the USB Type-C that doesn't support charging. Things can go bad if the implementation by the manufacture has no fail safe system against this. Doesn't mean that your HP have no problem that some Acer or whatever with USB Type-C non recharge ability or desktop motherboard with USB Type-C have no problem. Yes, you can be sure someone will plug a laptop 100W power adapter to tehir motherboard thinking they run the system without a power supply, or think can overclock more, or whatever.

Except a USB-C 85W charger doesn't expose the laptop to 85W. It exposes the laptop to 5v at up to 3A for a maximum of 15W. And it shouldn't even provide that if the charger and laptop are designed properly to spec. The laptop tells the charger "Hey I want to be a Power sink!" Before the charger should provide any power over VBus. Quoted directly from the USB-C spec below:

 

The Source’s USB Type-C receptacle VBUS pin shall remain unpowered and shall limit the 

capacitance between VBUS and GND as specified in Table 4-2 until a Sink is attached. The VBUS pin shall return to the unpowered state when the Sink is detached.

 

There's certain leeways for attaching legacy devices, but note even if plugging in an older USB-A wall wart this doesn't change. Your Source is only supposed to provide power over vBus when it detects a peripheral. Period. This is why Qualcomm Quickcharge 3.0 is such an issue, because it sets vBus hot even when it shouldn't (besides just violating a bunch of the rest of the USB-C spec).

 

The 9, 12, 15, and 20V lines only turn on when explicitly told to by the laptop. Period. That's how Power Delivery works. The laptop can even change which of the lanes are used on the fly, to better manage charging rate and power waste. All of this is controlled by the CC lines which is why Power Delivery *only* works with Type-C.

 

Plugging a Power Delivery charger into a Type-C port on your motherboard won't do anything, unless your motherboard manufacturer is really incompetent and doesn't isolate vBus like they're supposed to.

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

 

 

Don't have a MacBook pro to play with ATM but I'll stop by a store tonight and see if the sales associates will let me snap a quick pic to prove it's fine. I played with this when one of my friends first got her 'MacBook Pro 15" with Touch Bar Late 2016' to see if it shorted the two vBus lines together and caused any issues, but it was absolutely fine.

[GoodBytes]

9 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Except a USB-C 85W charger doesn't expose the laptop to 85W. It exposes the laptop to 5v at up to 3A for a maximum of 15W. And it shouldn't even provide that if the charger and laptop are designed properly to spec. The laptop tells the charger "Hey I want to be a Power sink!" Before the charger should provide any power over VBus. Quoted directly from the USB-C spec below:

USB Type-C can deliver 20V at up to 5 amps

 

 

9 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

There's certain leeways for attaching legacy devices, but note even if plugging in an older USB-A wall wart this doesn't change. Your Source is only supposed to provide power over vBus when it detects a peripheral. Period. This is why Qualcomm Quickcharge 3.0 is such an issue, because it sets vBus hot even when it shouldn't (besides just violating a bunch of the rest of the USB-C spec).

Manufacture implementation can vary.

 

9 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

The 9, 12, 15, and 20V lines only turn on when explicitly told to by the laptop. Period. That's how Power Delivery works. The laptop can even change which of the lanes are used on the fly, to better manage charging rate and power waste. All of this is controlled by the CC lines which is why Power Delivery *only* works with Type-C.

Manufacture implementation can vary.

 

9 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Plugging a Power Delivery charger into a Type-C port on your motherboard won't do anything, unless your motherboard manufacturer is really incompetent and doesn't isolate vBus like they're supposed to.

Manufacture implementation can vary.

 

9 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Don't have a MacBook pro to play with ATM but I'll stop by a store tonight and see if the sales associates will let me snap a quick pic to prove it's fine. I played with this when one of my friends first got her 'MacBook Pro 15" with Touch Bar Late 2016' to see if it shorted the two vBus lines together and caused any issues, but it was absolutely fine.

Sure, as long you make sure that they agree that you don't have to end buying it. Else it would suck for you.

 

[Sniperfox47]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

USB Type-C can deliver 20V at up to 5 amps

Again... Only when explicitly told to by the sink. On sink detection it can only provide 5v at up to 3A to a type-C sink and 5v at up to 0.5A to a legacy sink...

 

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Manufacture implementation can vary.

 

Manufacture implementation can vary.

 

Manufacture implementation can vary.

No it can't... It's clearly outlined in the USB Power Delivery specification. If it uses anything other than the defined specification it is not USB compliant. Period. That's why there's a certification process for this stuff...

 

Like here you go: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ 

 

It's all outlined in that zip file in the files "/USB Type-C/USB Type-C Specification Release 1.2.pdf" and "/USB Power Delivery/USB PD 3.0/USB_PD_R3_0 V1.1 20170112.pdf".

 

USB Power Delivery 2.0 is just a subset of USB Power Delivery 3.0, so even if it's a PD 2.0 charger the 3.0 doc is relevant.

[GoodBytes]

Just now, Sniperfox47 said:

Again... Only when explicitly told to by the sink. On sink detection it can only provide 5v at up to 3A to a type-C sink and 5v at up to 0.5A to a legacy sink...

 

No it can't... It's clearly outlined in the USB Power Delivery specification. If it uses anything other than the defined specification it is not USB compliant. Period. That's why there's a certification process for this stuff...

 

Like here you go: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ 

You are ASSUMING that the specs are implemented to the letter. The reality of things, that is rarely the case for many thing. From telecommunication to USB ports.

[Sniperfox47]

15 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

You are ASSUMING that the specs are implemented to the letter. The reality of things, that is rarely the case for many thing. From telecommunication to USB ports.

Charging off the adapter for it:charging off the adapter for the unit next to it:

Charging off both adapters on opposite sides:

Charging off both adapters on the same side:

It's completely safe to plug a MacBook Pro with Touchbar Late 2016 into multiple chargers. It won't hurt anything, but it also won't charge it any faster.

 

I'm not an apple fan in the slightest, I dislike both their phones and OS. It's rather telling that Clear Linux is actually faster in most benchmarks than MacOS on Apple's own hardware despite their claims that they better integrate the software and hardware by developing both themselves.

 

That being said, it's really aggravating to see fud like this spread that is simply not true.

 

Edit: relating this back to the topic, USB-C does not always accept or provide power, but in a properly implemented device it should not be dangerous to plug a USB-C device into another, or even multiple USB-C  power sources into one receiver.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Sniperfox47 said:

That being said, it's really aggravating to see fud like this spread that is simply not true.

It could be that Apple made a new revision of the system since, where they added a fix to avoid this problem. As the video showed made quite the news.

[Sniperfox47]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

It could be that Apple made a new revision of the system since, where they added a fix to avoid this problem. As the video showed made quite the news.

Except the video showed it charging and the guy just not refreshing the charging indicator. It specifically said at the top that the power source was the charger... And if he would have left it a minute and then checked it it would have showed it charging again.

 

When you plug in the MacBook pro, and then plug in a second charger it takes 10-20 seconds to requery both chargers and then set their power rates before finally refreshing the "not charging"/"x until fully charged". It also doesn't live update so you have to click off it, and reclick it for some reason because "OSX yo!". Takes even longer with 4 chargers because it has to query and negotiate with all of them.

 

The unit that I had originally played with was a release day unit she ordered direct from Apple. Sorry, but a guy who makes money on the basis of something breaking isn't always the most trustworthy source on whether something breaks or not.

 

If you can find me reports of actual users breaking their systems like this I'll gladly retract my statement, but until then I'll drop it to stop derailing the thread.