Sony PS4 bombshell: No MP3, external hard drive or DLNA support

[Guest]

I think it'll support AAC as that's what there music service is if I recall

[Mooshi]

News like this make me kinda glad I stopped caring hardcore about consoles. Outside of a few titles here and there, I don't feel like I am missing much. I'll stick to my PC, thanks. Ah, the advantages of growing up a Nintendo Kid. (now if only certain companies release more games..NAMCO)

[LAwLz]

You didn't read the article I posted, you can, although with some error using Fast Fourier Transform. I never said it would be perfect, or exactly the source quality although it would extremely close. I know in practicality it never works in practice, such as with video, but it is technically possible. I suggest looking up data compression and re-compression using FFT.

 

EDIT:

Also I feel as we are arguing over nothing. I know that given H.264 that there will be loss. But I am trying to show you there are ways around that using other compression/decompression methods.

Sigh... No, it is simply not possible to convert back to the exact original when you use destructive compression. If FFT can create the original back then it's a lossless compression algorithm, just like PNG or FLAC, or LZMA, or another other lossless compression. The cold hard fact is that it is impossible, both mathematically and in practice, to convert a lossy compressed file such as H.264 at >0 RF back to the original. It is simply not possible with a lossy format.

FFT is not a video codec.

Again, you're getting lossy compression confused with lossless. I am not sure how to explain why it wouldn't work for video in a way that you would understand.

 

Anyway, the video you get from a "mastered in 4K" blu-ray disc and a regular blu-ray disc are EXACTLY the same resolution (assuming the same aspect ratio). After that you do post processing to bring it up to 4K, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what resolution the original master was. Here is something you can do on your computer to demonstrate the difference. Take an 8 megapixel image. Reduce it to a 1 megapixel image in paint. Now upscale it to 8 megapixels again. That's exactly what is happening when the "mastered in 4K" movies are played on a 4K display.

The original 8 megapixel image is the master (which you have no access to at all).

The 1 megapixel image is what you actually get on the blu-ray disc.

The 8 megapixel image upscaled from the 1 megapixel one is what your TV is displaying.

 

The special upscaling algorithm Sony uses (which I doubt is any better than let's say Lanczos or Jinc) would have the exact same effect on a movie that was not mastered in 4K, as on a movie that was mastered in 4K.

 

It is possible to use lossless compression with H.264, hell I even mentioned it before that if you use RF 0 it will be lossless. That will not be anywhere close to fitting on a 50GB blu-ray disc though so the movies you buy are compressed, and there is no possible way of restoring the details that were destroyed during the compression. At best we can create a new 4K image using the limited data we got in the 1080p image, but we could use the exact same algorithms to make a 4K image out of let's say a 240p one. What I am trying to say is that "mastered in 4K" is just marketing bullshit and doesn't really have any benefit to us consumers.

 

 

Good news from Twitter. Seems like Sony might rethink their decision:

[Guest]

What??? on of the nice pluses of having a console in addition to gaming if that's what you're into is being able to stream movies and tv from your pc!

[WanderingFool]

Well, the MP3 is a bit of a bummer...but the hard drive issue was expected.

 

After all most hard drives are formatted with NTFS, which makes it problematic for Sony (given they would have to license it from Microsoft or use the open source alternatives)....I would be willing to bet the lack of MP3 support had similar justifications....or it could be that they never focused on this part of the console, after all it will require an update just to get blu-ray and dvd support added.  Perhaps they are just working on an MP3 solution now.

[Yoinkerman]

Only proprietary media? Sony can eat my balls.

[ionbasa]

Sigh... No, it is simply not possible to convert back to the exact original when you use destructive compression. If FFT can create the original back then it's a lossless compression algorithm, just like PNG or FLAC, or LZMA, or another other lossless compression. The cold hard fact is that it is impossible, both mathematically and in practice, to convert a lossy compressed file such as H.264 at >0 RF back to the original. It is simply not possible with a lossy format.

FFT is not a video codec.

Again, you're getting lossy compression confused with lossless. I am not sure how to explain why it wouldn't work for video in a way that you would understand.

 

Anyway, the video you get from a "mastered in 4K" blu-ray disc and a regular blu-ray disc are EXACTLY the same resolution (assuming the same aspect ratio). After that you do post processing to bring it up to 4K, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what resolution the original master was. Here is something you can do on your computer to demonstrate the difference. Take an 8 megapixel image. Reduce it to a 1 megapixel image in paint. Now upscale it to 8 megapixels again. That's exactly what is happening when the "mastered in 4K" movies are played on a 4K display.

The original 8 megapixel image is the master (which you have no access to at all).

The 1 megapixel image is what you actually get on the blu-ray disc.

The 8 megapixel image upscaled from the 1 megapixel one is what your TV is displaying.

 

The special upscaling algorithm Sony uses (which I doubt is any better than let's say Lanczos or Jinc) would have the exact same effect on a movie that was not mastered in 4K, as on a movie that was mastered in 4K.

 

It is possible to use lossless compression with H.264, hell I even mentioned it before that if you use RF 0 it will be lossless. That will not be anywhere close to fitting on a 50GB blu-ray disc though so the movies you buy are compressed, and there is no possible way of restoring the details that were destroyed during the compression. At best we can create a new 4K image using the limited data we got in the 1080p image, but we could use the exact same algorithms to make a 4K image out of let's say a 240p one. What I am trying to say is that "mastered in 4K" is just marketing bullshit and doesn't really have any benefit to us consumers.

 

Ahh, Sorry my bad, I was led to believe that "Mastered in 4k" was using a slightly optimized version of H.264 that would only work in a Sony bluray player and was also less lossy than normal H.264 compression, that given the case then you are right about  those disk being rip offs and BS. 

 

Also regarding FFT being loss-less, it isn't technically loss-less as it only takes the most important points of data and trashes everything else, essentially it is just keeping reference points from a source of data and can accurately rebuild the original data, but with some margin of error. I believe it is around 1-5% but I may be mistaken. The only caveat though is that FFT is computationally intensive and taxing, thus the only way we would ever see being applied to video is if there were specialized ASICs or FPGAs. also I know FFT isn't a video codec, but in the future, it may become a viable option for video encoding/decoding. As of right now though it is only being applied to data received over radio, such as satellites sending scientific data back down to earth.

[Vitalius]

Firstly, This is what I found in the FAQ:
 

 

Will the PS4 system support media servers or DLNA support in order to stream videos or movies from a home PC?

The PS4 system does not support client functionality for media servers.

*We appreciate your feedback and are exploring possibilities

 

Will I be able to play MP3s on the PS4 system? 

No.

*We appreciate your feedback and are exploring possibilities

So they are open to changing this apparently, if we want it badly enough. 

Just a few other things I found while looking through the massive FAQ:
 

 

 

If I’m not a PlayStation Plus member but I log into a PS4 system owned by a PS Plus member, will I be able to play online multiplayer?

Yes. If you don’t have a PS Plus membership, you can still access online multiplayer modes if you log into a PS4 system which is set as “Primary” by a PS Plus member. This means that, for example, if one housemate is a PlayStation Plus member, everyone in the household will have access to online multiplayer. Additionally, on the same PS4 system, any games or content purchased by one user are available to other users who play on that console (unless that content has expired).

This is awesome. $50 and everyone in my household can play online? AND I get free games??? Sign me up (/joke because I'm already a PS+ member).

 

 

When playing disc-based games on the PS4 system, do I need to install data to the hard drive?

Yes, all PS4 Blu-ray Disc games must be cached to the hard drive to ensure a smooth gaming experience. However, certain titles may not require you to wait for the game data to be fully cached before starting gameplay. In order to start playing disc-based games, users will need to insert the game disc into the PS4 system just like on the PS3 system.

... Oh well. I was going to upgrade the HDD anyway. Good thing we can still do that.
 

 

Can my child’s PS3 sub-account be changed to a master account on the PS4 system once they are past the age of 18?

Unfortunately, no. In this case, we would advise creating a new account. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I find this stupid.  

Regarding automatic download patches:
 

 

Will users have the option of setting the frequency and timings of auto detection, download, and installs?

No.

That's.... weird. Oh well. I guess it doesn't matter. You will either be playing a game or have the system off if you aren't using the system. That could get annoying if you are playing Single Player and some other game is updating while your family is on the PC. Hogging all the bandwidth much?

Or if you are on multiplayer and the same thing happens. Lag.
 

 

Will the PS4 system include a web browser?

Yes, the PS4 system comes with a web browser, which is based on webkit technology and is faster and more compatible than the browser that comes with PS3.

Thank God. That thing was terrible on the PS3.
 

 

Can the DUALSHOCK 4 controller connect to a PC?

Yes, you can connect a DUALSHOCK 4 controller to your PC using USB, and it will support basic functions. In regards to the DUALSHOCK 4 controller supporting full compatibility for playing PC games, there are no details to share at this time.

So... it will not need something like Motion Joy to work unless you use Bluetooth? Awesome.
 

 

 

You cannot use a mouse to navigate PS4. However, certain games may have mouse support.

.... wat.
 

 

Does the PS4 system support external HDMI-based game capture devices?

The PS4 system will allow the use of external HDMI-based capture devices following an upcoming system software update – please follow PlayStation.Blog and PlayStation.com for news following the launch of the PS4 system.

Cool. So everything about Sony's sharing thing is pointless then? Since the ones who will really use it the most will use these devices?

[legopc]

PC F T W

[LAwLz]

Ahh, Sorry my bad, I was led to believe that "Mastered in 4k" was using a slightly optimized version of H.264 that would only work in a Sony bluray player and was also less lossy than normal H.264 compression, that given the case then you are right about  those disk being rip offs and BS. 

Yeah it's the same H.264 compression as before. That's why they work on all standard blu-ray players as well. You might get a higher quality 1080p file if the master version is 4K, but yeah, they have used 4K masters in a lot of movies before this "mastered in 4K" sticker was introduced so it is mainly marketing.

 

 

Also regarding FFT being loss-less, it isn't technically loss-less as it only takes the most important points of data and trashes everything else, essentially it is just keeping reference points from a source of data and can accurately rebuild the original data, but with some margin of error. I believe it is around 1-5% but I may be mistaken. The only caveat though is that FFT is computationally intensive and taxing, thus the only way we would ever see being applied to video is if there were specialized ASICs or FPGAs. also I know FFT isn't a video codec, but in the future, it may become a viable option for video encoding/decoding. As of right now though it is only being applied to data received over radio, such as satellites sending scientific data back down to earth.

Don't think that would work for video, sadly. The file needs to be perfect in order for colors to be correct and such. If a single bit was changed then a blur color might become green, and since H.264 and other modern codecs relies on keyframes the green error would get dragged along over several frames. Then again, I am not much into the encoding side of things so maybe there are workarounds for things like that which I don't know of. I would be very surprised if we didn't use a concept which has been around for several centuries in modern standards if it was effective and worked though.

[alchemist11]

The reaction to both of these are over-blown. I have a feeling DLNA support is part of their time-line of things to add later down the road based on user-feedback after at least trying out the new services already there or the upcoming ones. No music without using Music Unlimited is way over-blown (as Tested claims). Game developers will continue to release soundtrack of games, so obviously there will be ways to get music and listen to them on PS4. It just may not be with the MP3 format, however. Plus, YouTube Music (as Engadget reported) may be coming and supported, so perhaps not natively supporting the most common audio format, mp3, is a preparation of that - stream music for free instead of ripping them.

 

Regarding automatic download patches: That's.... weird. Oh well. I guess it doesn't matter. You will either be playing a game or have the system off if you aren't using the system. That could get annoying if you are playing Single Player and some other game is updating while your family is on the PC. Hogging all the bandwidth much?

The reason why people won't be able to change the times is simply due to server overloads. If everyone is at the same time, Sony can increase the speed of their servers to better manage it. Otherwise, one person accessing the store at one time and a neighbour downloading patches at the same time will be affected.

[vanwazltoff]

who cares? i will be using it for gaming

[algoat]

One thing to add for the people considering replacing the internal HDD of the PS4.  You are limited to a 2.5" notebook sized HDD space with a max of 9.5mm height, so it would be difficult finding anything over 1 TB in capacity, and for a decent price.