Microsoft joins the Linux Foundation - Platinum Member

[vanished]

23 minutes ago, Arty said:

False,

you can run a lot of games on linux

and the ones you can't, you can just setup a VM to run windows.

A PC is the hardware.  If you install Linux, it's still a "PC" as far as I'm concerned.  And you solution for not using Windows is to run Linux, and then Windows in a VM for the things there isn't a Linux version for? 

[Danielh90]

So will Hyper-V get better with linux coming? 

[jagdtigger]

24 minutes ago, Arty said:

False,

you can run a lot of games on linux

and the ones you can't, you can just setup a VM to run windows.

The second one is more viable, wine probably has a bigger overhead than a VM. And one more advantage of the VM that you can pass over the control of the dGPU directly to the VM(in this case you need a second GPU for the linux but i think the iGPU in the CPU or some cheap dGPU will be enough).

[Arty]

28 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

A PC is the hardware.  If you install Linux, it's still a "PC" as far as I'm concerned.  And you solution for not using Windows is to run Linux, and then Windows in a VM for the things there isn't a Linux version for? 

It's why i didn't mention PC in my statement :). Until Developers start working on Linux support , their will be windows only applications, in which you have no choice but to run windows.

Which i am currently trying to do before i switch, seeing which applications that I use are windows only. Cause ATM, most of what I use is on linux. Pesky Autodesk and Adobe are the only ones really holding  be back.

[Orangeator]

47 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

A PC is the hardware.  If you install Linux, it's still a "PC" as far as I'm concerned.  And you solution for not using Windows is to run Linux, and then Windows in a VM for the things there isn't a Linux version for? 

Windows PC* For clarification of what I intended. And Linux is not better for gaming vs Windows. You will lose that debate I promise, as facts are not on Linux's side.

[vanished]

43 minutes ago, Orangeator said:

Windows PC* For clarification of what I intended. And Linux is not better for gaming vs Windows. You will lose that debate I promise, as facts are not on Linux's side.

Yeah I'm not going to go there, and never intended to imply anything about performance of either in my statement, so sorry if it came across like that.

1 hour ago, Arty said:

It's why i didn't mention PC in my statement :). Until Developers start working on Linux support , their will be windows only applications, in which you have no choice but to run windows.

Well I just read "Get a PC" and then you saying "False; use Linux" so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  

[vorticalbox]

I don't see why people are shock Microsoft is opening to Linux it makes perfect sense.

 

1. Get developer's used to Microsoft tools

2. Bring the tools they use (bash) to windows

 

and suddenly windows is looking pretty nice for people to jump ship.

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

I don't see why people are shock Microsoft is opening to Linux it makes perfect sense.

 

1. Get developer's used to Microsoft tools

2. Bring the tools they use (bash) to windows

 

and suddenly windows is looking pretty nice for people to jump ship.

That's all good and fine, but i "withhold my trust" for now. As mentioned before they tried to "knock out" java. Maybe its a similar plot. Only time will tell what is their true goal here...

[vorticalbox]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

That's all good and fine, but i "withhold my trust" for now. As mentioned before they tried to "knock out" java. Maybe its a similar plot. Only time will tell what is their true goal here...

Linux holds such a low market share in the desktop work I highly doubt it matters to Microsoft. Most of the office work is ran on windows and office.

 

Microsoft seem to be weird right now they go from doing good stuff like this to forcing updates and ads in the start menu.

[Misanthrope]

2 hours ago, Arty said:

It's why i didn't mention PC in my statement :). Until Developers start working on Linux support , their will be windows only applications, in which you have no choice but to run windows.

Which i am currently trying to do before i switch, seeing which applications that I use are windows only. Cause ATM, most of what I use is on linux. Pesky Autodesk and Adobe are the only ones really holding  be back.

And they won't without proper driver support, which neither Nvidia nor AMD are interesting in providing since there's not enough developer support, and so on and so on.

[GoodBytes]

30 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

That's all good and fine, but i "withhold my trust" for now. As mentioned before they tried to "knock out" java. Maybe its a similar plot. Only time will tell what is their true goal here...

If it weren't for Android, Java would be dead in any case. Not a good language. Slow performance, lots of security issues, has no good IDE (before Android). And even then, Google is now pushing Golang, its own language, which MS has an open source implementation support for Visual Studio Code IDE. Clearly Google is trying to phase away Java, and wants GoLang to replace it, boosting performance and responsiveness of phones.

 

[jagdtigger]

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

If it weren't for Android, Java would be dead in any case. Not a good language. Slow performance, lots of security issues, has no good IDE (before Android). And even then, Google is now pushing Golang, its own language, which MS has an open source implementation support for Visual Studio Code IDE. Clearly Google is trying to phase away Java, and wants GoLang to replace it, boosting performance and responsiveness of phones.

 

Maybe but it isn't justifies what MS did... Call it a hunch or paranoia if you'd like but the possibility is unfortunately still there that they will try something similar.

[LAwLz]

36 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

If it weren't for Android, Java would be dead in any case. Not a good language. Slow performance, lots of security issues, has no good IDE (before Android). And even then, Google is now pushing Golang, its own language, which MS has an open source implementation support for Visual Studio Code IDE. Clearly Google is trying to phase away Java, and wants GoLang to replace it, boosting performance and responsiveness of phones.

Java was by far the most popular programming language even before Android was released or became popular. It was on a slight decline, but overall it has been very stable.

 

Here is a graph showing the popularity of different programming languages. Android was not really seriously considered as a platform until ~2009 (when Cupcake was released). Java was on a very slow decline, but saying that it would be dead without Android can not be further from the truth. It could very well still be the most popular language even without Android even existing.

[GoodBytes]

49 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Maybe but it isn't justifies what MS did... Call it a hunch or paranoia if you'd like but the possibility is unfortunately still there that they will try something similar.

Not justifying... just saying.. sorry for not being clear.

[GoodBytes]

16 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Java was by far the most popular programming language even before Android was released or became popular. It was on a slight decline, but overall it has been very stable.

 

Here is a graph showing the popularity of different programming languages. Android was not really seriously considered as a platform until ~2009 (when Cupcake was released). Java was on a very slow decline, but saying that it would be dead without Android can not be further from the truth. It could very well still be the most popular language even without Android even existing.

Heumm I cannot agree with this. Searching for jobs world wide to see how is the market and being in the field, my data is not even close to correlates to these data being presented. There is not a single language that I see that I can agree upon, even if I go "maybe academic level" beside for Java.
 Also it doesn't make sense... so C++ is down, and C# is down... yet nothing is there to replace desktop applications. If you say "But mobile apps!", fine.. but then where is Swift at only 2% market share? Python is supposed to be in a growth. Many companies uses Python to make internals tools with greater ease than C# with .NET. Not to mention also, that it runs anywhere. PHP is down, but nothing to replace it... what? the web is dying? Assembly language is up? How? Is there a new hot chip architecture appearing on the market that require the development of new tools for it? Embedded systems, including IoTs long use C as their minimum.

[LAwLz]

27 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Heumm I cannot agree with this. Searching for jobs world wide to see how is the market and being in the field, my data is not even close to correlates to these data being presented. There is not a single language that I see that I can agree upon, even if I go "maybe academic level" beside for Java.
 Also it doesn't make sense... so C++ is down, and C# is down... yet nothing is there to replace desktop applications. If you say "But mobile apps!", fine.. but then where is Swift at only 2% market share? Python is supposed to be in a growth. Many companies uses Python to make internals tools with greater ease than C# with .NET. Not to mention also, that it runs anywhere. PHP is down, but nothing to replace it... what? the web is dying? Assembly language is up? How? Is there a new hot chip architecture appearing on the market that require the development of new tools for it? Embedded systems, including IoTs long use C as their minimum.

Well not sure what to tell you then. If you look at the github stats then it is more or less the same as Tiobe says (please enable percentage on total).

 

Java is, and has always been, extremely popular. Terrible language in a lot of ways, but very popular.

[GoodBytes]

51 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Well not sure what to tell you then. If you look at the github stats then it is more or less the same as Tiobe says (please enable percentage on total).

 

Java is, and has always been, extremely popular. Terrible language in a lot of ways, but very popular.

Not everyone uses GitHub. Businesses tend to not use it or host Git locally, and not on public servers for obvious reasons.

[LAwLz]

41 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Not everyone uses GitHub. Businesses tend to not use it or host Git locally, and not on public servers for obvious reasons.

So? I've given you two sources which says the same things. Java was and has always been popular. Of course it wasn't popular with Microsoft (the main reason I think you are trying to push this skewed view of history), but that does not mean it wasn't popular with developers. Java was very slowly declining and certainly got a boost by Android (happened in like 2014, so 5 years after Android had gained traction), but saying that Java would be dead without Android is extremely ignorant. It is used all the time for enterprise software (and consumer software for that matter).

 

Enterprises like IBM (which uses a ton of Java applications) are not exactly porting their programs over to Java because of Android either. They used it because it is portable and it is what they have historically used for certain programs (a lot of their programs they use internally are provided by Sun, which obviously will use Java whenever they can). 

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So? I've given you two sources which says the same things. Java was and has always been popular. Of course it wasn't popular with Microsoft (the main reason I think you are trying to push this skewed view of history), but that does not mean it wasn't popular with developers.

If that was the case, I would say C# is popular or on the rise, but nope. C# chance was with UWP, but Windows 10 Mobile isn't a thing... so the mass amount of devs making mobile apps would go in drove to it to make an app for the platform.

 

Quote

Java was very slowly declining and certainly got a boost by Android (happened in like 2014, so 5 years after Android had gained traction), but saying that Java would be dead without Android is extremely ignorant. It is used all the time for enterprise software (and consumer software for that matter).

Java WAS widely used in companies. Mostly because it is "multi-platform", but the reality is that new projects, aren't made in Java anymore. There is no point. You can't run Java app on a phone, desktop, tablet, etc. That idea is long gone, as this is not the reality of things (you can't just put a .jar file in Android and run it). Yes, it is widely used in financial sectors and schools. But that is a small market. The stats you show indicates that Java is the most widely used programming language. If you check for a job, you'll see that there isn't much demand for Java... I see a massive demand for web languages (normal), Android/iOS devs, Xamarin is growing (that would be C#, if I am not mistaken), and C++. Than less so: Java, C#, and then the rest...

[Misanthrope]

I can tell you (perhaps painfully obvious but nevertheless) that Oracle still uses lots of java. Part of our current database runs on Oracle EBS (The other half is a custom base called Transportation Manager tailored to logistic companies, which we are) and it's still quite painful to use but well, it's used...on a corporate environment.

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

I can tell you (perhaps painfully obvious but nevertheless) that Oracle still uses lots of java. Part of our current database runs on Oracle EBS (The other half is a custom base called Transportation Manager tailored to logistic companies, which we are) and it's still quite painful to use but well, it's used...on a corporate environment.

I didn't say that no one was using it. But it would not have the market share it has today without Android, and that Java, for NEW projects, is less and less considered. It is all I am saying or at least trying to say.

[Djole123]

Oh great, now every major Linux distro will have Microsoft's telemetry services embedded...

[LAwLz]

59 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I didn't say that no one was using it. But it would not have the market share it has today without Android, and that Java, for NEW projects, is less and less considered. It is all I am saying or at least trying to say.

Well now you've changed your argument quite a bit. You said it would be dead without Android which was clearly false (like my sources shows, it was the most popular programming language even before Android came out). Now you're saying it would not be used for new projects, and that Java developers are not being hired as much. 

 

I can neither prove nor disprove the first statement so I am going to have to ask you to prove that it is true. Where did you get that idea from? 

As for the statement that Java jobs are rare these days, you could not be further from the truth. 

 

Java is the second most demanded programming skill according to this list (only being beaten by SQL, which isn't exactly programming in the same way Java or C is) 

http://www.codingdojo.com/blog/9-most-in-demand-programming-languages-of-2016/

 

 

This article uses multiple source which all agree that Java is still still the top language (always ranking in the top three). It gets beaten by for example Javascript. If you want a job, Java is the way to go. 

https://blog.newrelic.com/2016/08/18/popular-programming-languages-2016-go/

[jagdtigger]

20 minutes ago, Djole123 said:

Oh great, now every major Linux distro will have Microsoft's telemetry services embedded...

Hopefully they are not that dumb to actually try it... The community would hold them by their balls and arrange for a quick impalement.

[suicidalfranco]

Java dead? People still try to believe that?

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

and no one is hiring java devs? so that's why is still up there among the best paying programming languages 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/best-tech-skills-resume-ranked-salary-2014-11?r=US&IR=T