Some thoughts about the new MacBook Pro's

[leodaniel]

So apple announced their new MacBook Pro line up this week.

 

I have read quiet a lot of article about it here on this forum and just wanted to share my views of the hole thing.

 

I personally like the move away form USB type A, it will hopefully increase the number of USB C devices out there. And let's be honest, do you really need USB Type A on your Laptop? I mean, every display today features a USB Type A hub, so you only need a cable to your monitor for your peripherals. This is what I already do since years and really never understood why some people use a keyboard and mouse with a Laptop without a Monitor.

 

Now, I still use a 4 years old macbook pro and my question is: Does raw horsepower really make the difference for a (pro) Laptop?

I think, NO and this is what apple showed us with those products. @LinusSebastian said in the WAN Show yesterday, that most apple users aren't doing intense video-editing and other power-hungry stuff. I totally agree. I think we reached a point, where the performance is increasing very slowly, I mean I can still do all my work on my 4 years old machine. Lets for example take a look at the surface Studio (Great device in my eyes), it features a GTX 980M for powering a 4.5 K display. You may now think, way underpowered... but who cares, as long as the user experience is good, it doesn't really matter to most of the people out there who will buy one. The same applies to the MacBook Pro's. The Hardware jumps in the last couple of years where just really small. I just want to give you an example here: What does an architect, a designer... need from a Laptop? A decently powerful, reliable computer, which works and is portable. Does he need the bleeding edge performance? No, but he will care about convenience like the TouchBar or the surface Dial (just as non apple example, tho not for a Laptop). But he could totally work on a 3 Years old machine really well.

 

I think, we see the same movement on professional devices everywhere. Professional no longer means the bleeding edge performance but rather more convenience which ultimately increases productivity.

 

I hope, to have a constructive discussion about the future of Laptops and Portable devices here and not an Apple bash.

 

[AlTech]

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

So apple announced their new MacBook Pro line up this week.

 

I have read quiet a lot of article about it here on this forum and just wanted to share my views of the hole thing.

 

I personally like the move away form USB type A,

I do, but let's not beat around the bush. 99.9%+ accessories are made for USB-A.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

it will hopefully increase the number of USB C devices out there. And let's be honest, do you really need USB Type A on your Laptop?

As a matter of fact I do, I use USB Sticks which use USB-A, I sometimes use a mouse or keyboard and I dislike having a single USB-A port. To have none would be a deal breaker for me.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I mean, every display today features a USB Type A hub,

But laptops aren't permanently connected to monitors.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

so you only need a cable to your monitor for your peripherals. This is what I already do since years and really never understood why some people use a keyboard and mouse with a Laptop without a Monitor.

Perhaps because they want a more accurate form of interaction and need to be mobile, hence why people buy a laptop instead of a desktop.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

Now, I still use a 4 years old macbook pro and my question is: Does raw horsepower really make the difference for a (pro) Laptop?

From a 4 year old MacBookPro, you will feel a different in speed. This is partially due to the increased RAM, partially due to faster storage and partially due to faster CPU and GPU.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I think, NO and this is what apple showed us with those products. @LinusSebastian said in the WAN Show yesterday, that most apple users aren't doing intense video-editing and other power-hungry stuff. I totally agree. I think we reached a point, where the performance is increasing very slowly,

CPU performance? Yes. GPU performance? Not so much.

 

It would be nice to have lower power quad core CPUs like 15-20w at lower clock speeds.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I mean I can still do all my work on my 4 years old machine. Lets for example take a look at the surface Studio (Great device in my eyes), it features a GTX 980M for powering a 4.5 K display.

I suspect they wanted to have a 6K display but the 980M physically didn't support it.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

You may now think, way underpowered... but who cares, as long as the user experience is good

Actually, I was thinking that GPU aside, it's well specced (apart from the 8GB standard, seriously! 16GB RAM should be standard on a $1600+ PC)

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

, it doesn't really matter to most of the people out there who will buy one. The same applies to the MacBook Pro's. The Hardware jumps in the last couple of years where just really small.

CPU wise? Yes. Storage wise? It's night and day between a 2012 mac and a 2016 mac.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I just want to give you an example here: What does an architect, a designer... need from a Laptop? A decently powerful, reliable computer, which works and is portable.

Decently powerful is an understatement.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

Does he need the bleeding edge performance? No,

Actually,  I would argue that he/she does need as much performance as possible while still being practical/reasonable.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

but he will care about convenience like the TouchBar or the surface Dial (just as non apple example, tho not for a Laptop).

Actually no. TouchBar is aimed at power users. Not Engineers or architects. The surface dial is more meant for artists and designers.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

But he could totally work on a 3 Years old machine really well.

Depends on specs and experience.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I think, we see the same movement on professional devices everywhere. Professional no longer means the bleeding edge performance but rather more convenience which ultimately increases productivity.

This is a trend I don't quite like.

 

Professional does mean bleeding edge performance for companies which understand the needs of their customers.

 

The MacBookPro is a commodity item which is used by people who will never use it to it's full potential.

5 minutes ago, leodaniel said:

I hope, to have a constructive discussion about the future of Laptops and Portable devices here and not an Apple bash.

 

This isn't an Apple Bash FYI. It seems that you're quite the Apple fanboy.

[leodaniel]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

This isn't an Apple Bash FYI. It seems that you're quite the Apple fanboy.

Maybe a bit for laptops, but not at all for Desktops . My point is more to explain the movement I see here. It's not about the Macbook or whatever. I feel like the hole industry is moving that way... and those macbooks show that really well.

 

8 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

CPU wise? Yes. Storage wise? It's night and day between a 2012 mac and a 2016 mac.

Yes the storage makes the biggest difference here I agree.

 

9 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Decently powerful is an understatement.

For most of the companies I worked with in the past, performance isn't the biggest selling point at all! It's the overall product that does and what the maintenance costs.

 

12 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Actually,  I would argue that he/she does need as much performance as possible while still being practical/reasonable

It's really depending on your type of work. Like I said, I see a big movement in the direction of convenience over performance.

 

 

14 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

This is a trend I don't quite like.

 

Professional does mean bleeding edge performance for companies which understand the needs of their customers.

 

The MacBookPro is a commodity item which is used by people who will never use it to it's full potential.

I disagree here. Just take a look at IBM. (http://uk.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10?r=US&IR=T) 

Professional does not mean bleeding edge performance. I understand, that for some applications you need that, but for mosts you don't.

 

 

[Pendragon]

5 hours ago, leodaniel said:

I disagree here. Just take a look at IBM. (http://uk.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10?r=US&IR=T) 

Quite interesting to read. I can see that maintenance costs being lower on a Mac over years. The issue now is that a 1000 dollar computer is more powerful than a fully specced out 3000 dollar mac. Y700 vs 15in Macbook Radeon 460. I'd like to see more companies try this before making a statement about it. BUT, I can already see issues with the new Macbook in this corporate environment. The lack of USB-A (a prime connector in corporate) and the missing TB2 (which firms that use Macs heavily invest in) are fucked. They need to take into account menu costs of upgrading and changing alot of tech infrastructure. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

I personally like the move away form USB type A, it will hopefully increase the number of USB C devices out there. And let's be honest, do you really need USB Type A on your Laptop? I mean, every display today features a USB Type A hub, so you only need a cable to your monitor for your peripherals. This is what I already do since years and really never understood why some people use a keyboard and mouse with a Laptop without a Monitor.

...that's just you. Most people use USB A devices. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

Now, I still use a 4 years old macbook pro and my question is: Does raw horsepower really make the difference for a (pro) Laptop?

Fucking yes. My issue is that my 5 year old 2012 Macbook Pro first gen retina is more powerful than the new 13in ones????? And they cost almost as much????? I'm running an Ivy-Bridge quad core with a GT650m and 16gb of ram. Like wtf happened here. `For anyone that needs to use professional applications (as the PRO) name suggests, you would definitely need a quad core. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

that most apple users aren't doing intense video-editing and other power-hungry stuff

Oh thats fine. Then don't label your devices PRO. Pro suggests other things. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

it features a GTX 980M for powering a 4.5 K display. You may now think, way underpowered... but who cares, as long as the user experience is good, it doesn't really matter to most of the people out there who will buy one.

That literally makes no sense. a 970 equivalent is more than enough to drive a 4k display and the professional artists apps that one would need with it. It's not underpowered. And the reason why that's in there is because product development cycles for something like this is in the years. By the time they planned to release it, Pascal mobile was launched. Another possibility is that people at Microsoft actually understand HEAT CONSTRAINTS. a 980m's thermal output is easier to dissipate than a 1060, and stuff a 980m in a small form factor is a good choice. Unlike Macbooks which will throttle left right and center with a quad core + 460 at load. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

What does an architect, a designer... need from a Laptop? A decently powerful, reliable computer, which works and is portable.

Wtf are you saying. If you're going to try to run Solidworks or AutoCad on a 13in Macbook Pro you're going to be fired for not meeting the deadlines. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

But he could totally work on a 3 Years old machine really well.

This argument is invalid. Most professional can work on a 3 year old machine as well. Do they want to? No. Because time is money in the corporate environment and if you can get this 1 thing done 5 second faster on a better machine. Applied across a month of activity (saving 5 second everytime you perform a common action), you would have saved yourself PLENTY of additional time. 

 

6 hours ago, leodaniel said:

I hope, to have a constructive discussion about the future of Laptops and Portable devices here and not an Apple bash.

The issue with Apple is that there is alot to bash on. And I own one. The last time the machines were "pro" were the 2011 Macbooks with upgradable ram and storage and not soldered everything on. 

 

Yes for the majority of people in the world, they don't need as much power as some of us on the forum would suggest. If you're going to make your laptop an email machine, then a Chromebook would serve you just as fine as a Macbook. The only continued niche for Macbooks are FCP. They continue to be the kings of 1-person video editing projects like Youtube creation. They understand that alot of the tech influencers will continue to use FCP because it's just better, and hence will convince other people to get it when the real story is that at this point Macbooks are just a rip off. For aforementioned tech youtubers, FCP can render a video many many times faster than a Windows machine on adobe can, and for them it's 100% worth the money cause it's their corporate vehicle and its how they earn their money. 

 

 

 

[Rotterdams]

Other companies should learn from Apple.

 

Make a freaking laptop that looks good!!! It sells eventough its crap from the inside lol

 

Even I buy Apple products. Because it looks good...in my opinion its important.

[Pendragon]

Just now, Rotterdams said:

Even I buy Apple products. Because it looks good...in my opinion its important.

good for you

[Dackzy]

29 minutes ago, Rotterdams said:

SNIP

Don't open the spoiler if you get hurt easily.

Spoiler

 

[L0veless]

20 hours ago, Pendragon said:

SNIP

 

Perfect reply. You put it better than I ever could, I don't have anything to add.

 

Just one thing: I see people talking about a 460 for the 15" MBP but on Apple's website the highest cofnig I can find uses a 455. (Which is about as powerful as a 960m)

[Pendragon]

13 minutes ago, L0veless said:

I see people talking about a 460 for the 15" MBP but on Apple's website the highest cofnig I can find uses a 455

Click on "Select" on the highest end 15in MBP. In the options you'll find one for 460. 

[The Belgian Waffle]

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

I personally like the move away form USB type A, it will hopefully increase the number of USB C devices out there.

I agree. 

 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

And let's be honest, do you really need USB Type A on your Laptop?

I have a laptop and I have exactly 6 USB Type-A connected to it. You're right, who needs a laptop with USB Type-A? 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

I mean, every display today features a USB Type A hub, so you only need a cable to your monitor for your peripherals. This is what I already do since years and really never understood why some people use a keyboard and mouse with a Laptop without a Monitor.

My monitor doesn't have any sort of ports. 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

Now, I still use a 4 years old macbook pro and my question is: Does raw horsepower really make the difference for a (pro) Laptop?

You couldn't be more wrong. Pro MEANS horsepower. The old MacBook Pro we are using is lagging beyond belief with more than 7 or 8 Chrome tabs opened. So I don't know what kind of work you have, but probably nothing that would require a minimum of horsepower. 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

Lets for example take a look at the surface Studio (Great device in my eyes), it features a GTX 980M for powering a 4.5 K display. You may now think, way underpowered... but who cares, as long as the user experience is good, it doesn't really matter to most of the people out there who will buy one. The same applies to the MacBook Pro's. The Hardware jumps in the last couple of years where just really small. I just want to give you an example here:

Well, if I spend 2000 dollars on a machine I'd expect to be AT LEAST powerful enough to last a couple of years without lagging beyond belief. 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

What does an architect, a designer... need from a Laptop? A decently powerful, reliable computer, which works and is portable. Does he need the bleeding edge performance?

My girlfriend does 3D rendering and what she'd expect by doing her renderings on a laptop is something fast and powerful, not some crappy underpowered laptop that is way overpriced. 

On 29/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, leodaniel said:

No, but he will care about convenience like the TouchBar or the surface Dial (just as non apple example, tho not for a Laptop). But he could totally work on a 3 Years old machine really well.

 

I think, we see the same movement on professional devices everywhere. Professional no longer means the bleeding edge performance but rather more convenience which ultimately increases productivity.

The Touchbar is a gimmick. The name's "Pro" => No pros look at their keyboard when writing things. 

 

I'm sorry to be the one telling you that but you seem like an iSheep, to me. And we own many Apple products, it's not like I'm doing a rant or anything. They've just done bad decisions in my opinion.
 

[Squirrel724]

On 10/29/2016 at 10:46 AM, leodaniel said:

I personally like the move away form USB type A, it will hopefully increase the number of USB C devices out there. And let's be honest, do you really need USB Type A on your Laptop? I mean, every display today features a USB Type A hub, so you only need a cable to your monitor for your peripherals. This is what I already do since years and really never understood why some people use a keyboard and mouse with a Laptop without a Monitor.

And how do the usb ports on the monitor connect to the laptop? USB-A. Also USB-C is a massively underdeveloped standard currently and isn't ready to replace the existing ports.

On 10/29/2016 at 10:46 AM, leodaniel said:

Does raw horsepower really make the difference for a (pro) Laptop?

Yes, yes it does. I use 100% of the performance my XPS 15 offers almost every day. Raw horsepower is a big deal for a pro device.

 

On 10/29/2016 at 10:46 AM, leodaniel said:

I think, we see the same movement on professional devices everywhere. Professional no longer means the bleeding edge performance but rather more convenience which ultimately increases productivity.

No it doesn't. Apple has stopped making professional devices. They now only make consumer devices for people who want to look fancy as they check twitter. Professional devices are about being able to crank through a workload as effectively as possible. Taking away all the ports and lightening a device at the cost of usability (looking at you lack of ports and shit keyboard) is not how you make a device for professionals. 

[Eason85]

After 16 years, I was looking for a reason to go back to Apple. They seemed to bend over backwards not to give me any reason to.

[Dackzy]

apple is not making pro laptops, they are making YouTube laptops, they fucked over the keyboard, they removed the type A ports, the mini dp, they made it thinner at the cost of keyboard, battery and most likely cooling. A pro device is meant to have a lot of power, not a slim sexy machine, I would not even call them business class laptops, they are just your everyday fashion laptop.

 

I wanted them to stop up and think wtf are we doing, but nope.

I wanted them to make a real pro laptop, put a firepro in your MBP15 and make it a little thicker if you have to, put a iris pro quad core in your MBP13 and make it thicker so it can cool it, give us a couple of USB 3.0 type A, if they had done that, then I would call them pro. Now they are just fashion laptops.

[The Belgian Waffle]

17 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Now they are just fashion laptops.

I totally agree, and this is a bad thing. We used to look at Apple and think that only pros would use the machine at its true power, whereas now every 4k YouTube video will make it struggle. 

They've always pushed the industry forward, just think what the first iPhone could do compared to other phones at the time, but now I think they went too far off the road they were (in my opinion) better off.

But still, they'll sell a bunch of them and they'll think that they made a good product. 

I honestly think a device less futuristic would've been so much better.