Windows signature edition blocking installation of Linux

[Delicieuxz]

1 minute ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

Oh no! My internet broke! Therefore I blame IBM and Cisco!

 

When the sample size is so small (one), and there are so many contributing and more suspect factors, that is not an allegation at all. That is called a hyperbole, and it is a half-witted one at that. As for Windows 10, we would get a much more clear picture of what has been happening (and much sooner too) if certain people were not shouting and screaming blatant misinformation from half-truths... oh wait!

The thing about allegations, is that they're unproven.

 

And like I edited in my previous post: " forced installation, forced updates, forced bloatware, forced telemetry and data-collection, forced file associations... it's not as if this news allegation wouldn't be par for the course with Microsoft."

 

 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Daring said:

-snip-

 

16 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

-snip-

 

I recommend you two read the response from Lenovo, it is linked in this thread. Lenovo says:

Quote

This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft.

 

It's a shame that their contracts are secret otherwise we could just look it up for ourselves.

The only things we know for sure are:

1) The Lenovo laptop is blocking GNU/Linux from being installed (and presumably other OSes as well).

2) Lenovo is saying that it is a requirement from Microsoft.

 

whether or not Microsoft is the culprit (and I seriously want whoever is responsible to be sued into oblivion, because this is extremely anti-competitive) is up for debate. Right now it is Lenovo's word against silence from Microsoft, so Microsoft is the prime suspect. Hopefully we will get a response from Microsoft soon.

 

These contracts are not the same for each OEM either, so it is possible that Microsoft told Lenovo to block it, but not Asus, or maybe they offered some discount if they blocked GNU/Linux, but only Lenovo agreed to it.

[Master Disaster]

Windows 10/Ubuntu 16/macOS 10.12 Sierra triple boot master race

 

On a serious note, I was gonna go off on a rant about how Apple have been locking their shit down for years but I stopped and thought about it then I realised that Apples shit (hardware) is actually their shit (as in they make it themselves). 

 

I'm fine with MS locking down their own hardware but when they start locking down third party hardware I do take issue with it. As mentioned above, it's only a matter of time before your Acer laptop is locked down to Windows 10 forever. Couldn't be any more of an anti consumer move tbh. 

[Misanthrope]

15 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

True, but the key difference between an allegation and an assumption is that in the former case, there is a solid basis of argument, and there is nothing but politically motivated brainwashing in the latter.

 

And thank you for proving my point; did you give even a single brain cell of thought as to the accusations you are making? These things are not nearly as simple and straight-forward as you are forcing everybody else to believe.

How is he forcing anyone, let alone everybody?

 

We get it, you disagree, do you really need to keep up this unhelpful tone and get the entire thread locked?

[Nowak]

Remember, everyone, it's okay to disagree and criticize things. Without criticism, nothing would ever get better.

[shermantanker]

Aren't the signature edition computers just the ones that Microsoft sells through it store?

[Nowak]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

 

I recommend you two read the response from Lenovo, it is linked in this thread. Lenovo says:

 

It's a shame that their contracts are secret otherwise we could just look it up for ourselves.

The only things we know for sure are:

1) The Lenovo laptop is blocking GNU/Linux from being installed (and presumably other OSes as well).

2) Lenovo is saying that it is a requirement from Microsoft.

 

whether or not Microsoft is the culprit (and I seriously want whoever is responsible to be sued into oblivion, because this is extremely anti-competitive) is up for debate. Right now it is Lenovo's word against silence from Microsoft, so Microsoft is the prime suspect. Hopefully we will get a response from Microsoft soon.

 

These contracts are not the same for each OEM either, so it is possible that Microsoft told Lenovo to block it, but not Asus, or maybe they offered some discount if they blocked GNU/Linux, but only Lenovo agreed to it.

I would still not rule out Lenovo. They're known for using obscure, proprietary hardware in their consumer models and then whitelisting the shit out of everything in the BIOS to lock people into their proprietary hardware. Most likely they're using "Microsoft told us to do this thing" so they can get a "get out of jail free" card and make everyone blame Microsoft instead, because no other computers sold by Microsoft are locked down like this.

 

I used to own a Lenovo IdeaPad Y570. Not only was the BIOS whitelisted so I can only install Lenovo-approved RAM modules (the total capacity of which was limited in the BIOS to 8GB max, even though the CPU and chipset could address 16GB RAM), their proprietary wireless modules (replacements of which are hard to find outside of Lenovo themselves) and basically everything that they approve, it was also not compatible with Windows 8 and Linux ran poorly on the machine. It's because of their fuckery why I can't recommend Lenovo's consumer hardware.

[Nowak]

So this came out just now.

 

https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html

 

Really backs up that this isn't Microsoft's doing, it's just Lenovo shifting the blame by claiming that MS is forcing them to lock out alternative operating systems.

[PlayStation 2]

2 hours ago, shermantanker said:

Aren't the signature edition computers just the ones that Microsoft sells through it store?

Signature Edition is just barebones Windows. No bloatware, really only just drivers. Basically a clean install outside of drivers out of the box.

[bobman279]

Secure boot is your problem it will stop any OS that is uncertified or not signed or something

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

16 minutes ago, bobman279 said:

Secure boot is your problem it will stop any OS that is uncertified or not signed or something

No it is not. If you read the information from the source provided by @Daring, you will realize that the fault of the issue is twofold; Intel for refusing to cooperate with the Linux community in the function of RAID and power management, and Lenovo for preventing the user from switching to AHCI mode in the BIOS.

 

As I suspected, the Microsoft controversy was pure spiel, which the "informed" people accepted without question. The OP title should be changed to reflect the larger picture.

[Dabombinable]

5 hours ago, Daring said:

This is a Lenovo thing. There is no other computer being sold at the MS Store that doesn't allow the installation of alternative OSes; you can install Linux on the Surface Pro 4, Microsoft's flagship computer, ffs. Apparently it's related to the custom NVMe drive in the Yoga 900, which no OS natively supports and requires a custom driver to be used, even on Windows.

 

But let's direct our anger at Microsoft because this is clearly their fault and it can't be the fault of Lenovo at all, even though it's pretty well-known that Lenovo is no stranger to this kind of fuckery on their consumer models.

So, its just proprietary BS from lenovo then? similar with HP and their BIOS white list which limits the amount of mini PCI/PCIe wifi cards that you can use (you can hot swap the wifi card after booting into Windows or Linux, and it will work-if you don't it just comes up with an error during post)?

[Nowak]

Just now, Dabombinable said:

So, its just proprietary BS from lenovo then?

Well, now that I've done some more reading, it's because they locked the BIOS disk mode into RAID with no option to set it to ACHI, which requires you to use a custom driver to even see the drive in the OS' installer, and Lenovo has not released this driver for anything but Windows 10. So yes, proprietary BS from Lenovo.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, Daring said:

Well, now that I've done some more reading, it's because they locked the BIOS disk mode into RAID with no option to set it to ACHI, which requires you to use a custom driver to even see the drive in the OS' installer, and Lenovo has not released this driver for anything but Windows 10. So yes, proprietary BS from Lenovo.

Ah, right then. Just looking at this article BTW-its definitely what they are doing:

http://joshuawise.com/wireless-whitelist

Following the OEM trend.

[Nowak]

Just now, Dabombinable said:

Ah, right then. Just looking at this article BTW-its definitely what they are doing:

http://joshuawise.com/wireless-whitelist

Following the OEM trend.

This is why I don't recommend Lenovo consumer hardware.

 

If you want a Lenovo laptop, and you care about control over your hardware, get a ThinkPad. Preferably a T420 or older, since you can easily replace the BIOS with an unlocked BIOS on that for full hardware control.

[patrickjp93]

9 hours ago, ITheSpazI said:

I would be running Linux at work full time if I didn't have to use stupid Access so much.  

Libreoffice has a database interface with all the same capability, even if visually it's not as pleasant.

[NumLock21]

Problem isn't Microsoft or Lenovo. It's linux itself.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/21/lenovo_denies_plot_with_microsoft_to_block_linux_installs/

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_IdeaPad_Yoga_900

[patrickjp93]

49 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Problem isn't Microsoft or Lenovo. It's linux itself.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/21/lenovo_denies_plot_with_microsoft_to_block_linux_installs/

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_IdeaPad_Yoga_900

Actually, that would make it Intel's fault for not providing the Linux community with driver blobs.

 

Yes, you did just see me post something negative about Intel.

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, Daring said:

Well, now that I've done some more reading, it's because they locked the BIOS disk mode into RAID with no option to set it to ACHI, which requires you to use a custom driver to even see the drive in the OS' installer, and Lenovo has not released this driver for anything but Windows 10. So yes, proprietary BS from Lenovo.

The way I see it, it could still be Microsoft's fault, with a bit of help from Intel and Lenovo. 

Lenovo is to blame for the locked bios. 

Intel is to blame for the lack of GNU/Linux driver. 

Microsoft might be to blame if they somehow forced/encourage Lenovo to block it in the BIOS. It would not be the first time Microsoft made a bios setting mandatory. 

[Blake]

->everyone rages at Secure boot and claims it is Microsoft's fault for forcing manufacturers to do X, Y, Z.

->Forgets that you can run linux on a freaking Microsoft surface.

->Yep clearly is Secure boot causing this issue.

 

#drama2016

 

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The way I see it, it could still be Microsoft's fault, with a bit of help from Intel and Lenovo. 

Lenovo is to blame for the locked bios. 

Intel is to blame for the lack of GNU/Linux driver. 

Microsoft might be to blame if they somehow forced/encourage Lenovo to block it in the BIOS. It would not be the first time Microsoft made a bios setting mandatory. 

Even then, you can still install Linux just fine on the Surface, so there's that. Lenovo's Yoga line never had even decent Linux support to begin with.

[LAwLz]

1 minute ago, Daring said:

Even then, you can still install Linux just fine on the Surface, so there's that.

I don't see how that is in any way relevant to what we are discussing. Microsoft does not follow the same contracts they sign with OEMs. 

[Nowak]

Just now, LAwLz said:

I don't see how that is in any way relevant to what we are discussing. Microsoft does not follow the same contracts they sign with OEMs. 

Good point.

[Nowak]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-linux-isn-t-blocked-on-windows-10-pcs-508528.shtml?utm_content=bufferb8801&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

DEVELOPMENT! Microsoft has denied that they are blocking installing Linux on Signature Edition PCs.

[LAwLz]

36 minutes ago, Daring said:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-linux-isn-t-blocked-on-windows-10-pcs-508528.shtml?utm_content=bufferb8801&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

DEVELOPMENT! Microsoft has denied that they are blocking installing Linux on Signature Edition PCs.

They are not really denying it though. They are saying "we are not directly blocking GNU/Linux. You just need the correct drivers.", but they did not deny that they are indirectly blocking it by mandating that users can not change from RAID to AHCI in the BIOS.

Saying "you must use this particular thing which GNU/Linux doesn't support" is just as bad as saying "you're not allowed to support GNU/Linux". Microsoft only denies to the latter but not the former.

So while it seems like the blame is on Lenovo (locking it to RAID mode) and Intel (not providing the driver), I would still not rule out Microsoft just yet.