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Pascal consumer = Maxwell on speed confirmed

Agosto
By Agosto
in Tech News
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Posted
1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

No they did nerf Kepler.You don't own a Kepler GPU so you're on no position to inform others of this.

Just asking questions, chill out. 

I build PCs as a hobby. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

They put some architectural efficiency changes from Tonga/Fury to Grenada.

 

They were minor efficiency tweaks.

There were no architectural changes. At all!!!!!

"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

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Posted
Just now, AluminiumTech said:

No they did nerf Kepler.You don't own a Kepler GPU so you're on no position to inform others of this.

I do own a kepler GPU, GTX 760 4GB. Game patches have the ability to effect performance as much as drivers.

R9 3900XT | Tomahawk B550 | Ventus OC RTX 3090 | Photon 1050W | 32GB DDR4 | TUF GT501 Case | Vizio 4K 50'' HDR

 

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Just now, Briggsy said:

I do own a kepler GPU, GTX 760 4GB. Game patches have the ability to effect performance as much as drivers.

Eg. The last FO4 patch, before that on the same drivers I was able to run it at 2x 1080p (DSR) without any problems (aka 60fps), after the patch I was getting around 40-50 fps.

"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
PMSL

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Posted
2 hours ago, Nineshadow said:

Well, yes, Pascal was mainly die shrink process after all, kinda like Intel's Tick.

Yeah Nvidia could of easily made both tick tock but they prolong everything so they can make more money. Always buy the second gen on a architecture. It might be only 15% faster then the one before but it is really 45% faster then the architecture before.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 hours ago, Agost said:

 

There's the 1060 too

And the 480 is on the same level of the 970, but uses more power while being on a smaller node... so it's pretty much a fail.

The 480 uses less power than the 970 and performs better.

 

Both of those advantages are small, but they're there - and are a serious change from the 390 vs 970 situation (as should be expected). Maybe you could have hoped for even more of an improvement, but the 480 certainly isn't a failure. More DX12 and Vulkan games could even bring that extra improvement over time.

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Just now, SamStrecker said:

Yeah Nvidia could of easily made both tick tock but they prolong everything so they can make more money. Always buy the second gen on a architecture. It might be only 15% faster then the one before but it is really 45% faster then the architecture before.

The error is that people are comparing 980ti to 1080 and 1070, when the 1080 is the replacement for the 980, and 1070 for the 970. The cost of the 1080 and 1070 are due to a lack of competition and unprecedented demand. The 1080ti will be the successor to the 980ti.

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2 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

The 480 uses less power than the 970 and performs better.

 

Both of those advantages are small, but they're there - and are a serious change from the 390 vs 970 situation (as should be expected). Maybe you could have hoped for even more of an improvement, but the 480 certainly isn't a failure. More DX12 and Vulkan games could even bring that extra improvement over time.

Um....you do realise that the GTX 970 consumes less? Even against the reference RX 480?

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/RX_480_STRIX_OC/21.html

 

The GTX 1080 consumes less power for crying out loud

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Just now, Briggsy said:

The error is that people are comparing 980ti to 1080 and 1070, when the 1080 is the replacement for the 980, and 1070 for the 970. The cost of the 1080 and 1070 are due to a lack of competition and unprecedented demand. The 1080ti will be the successor to the 980ti.

If there is a 1080ti. The Titan X is a full GP102 and is a fail so if a 1080ti does come out it will be weaker then a Titan X, the new one, and have worse specs and perform slightly better then a 980ti. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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50 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Can I please say something?

 

It is 100% true that the cores themselves-ALUs n stuff, are completely the same as Maxwell. HOWEVER, Nvidia has changed quite a bit on the front end of Pascal (and in the process improved Async compute as well as added new features like SMT) as well as improved Delta Color Compression, which IS NOT software. Need proof? Read this entire article then come back: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10325/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-and-1070-founders-edition-review

His results show no real performance improvement given by the enhanced color compression, at least on the 1080; it may be better on lower tier cards with GDDR5. Pascal async capability is not a "real" async, even if they managed to get some performance out of it (instead of losing fps as on Maxwell cards)

The whole point here is that Pascal consumer core has the same performance of Maxwell ones. No gpu war, no brand defame, just some verification about the "architectural miracle" NVIDIA was boasting (with the other, what, 4 "miracles"?)
 

43 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

His conclusions about Pascal answer a question that only he asked, in a pre-emptive response to the notion that Polaris is actually Hawaii on speed with color compression, hardware culling, half the ACE's and 2/3 actual power draw to match performance (but that is being nit-picky, am I right?).

 Polaris has at least some architectural changes and slightly better performance per core, even if it's still a quite disappointing card for me

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6 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

The 480 uses less power than the 970 and performs better.

 

Both of those advantages are small, but they're there - and are a serious change from the 390 vs 970 situation (as should be expected). Maybe you could have hoped for even more of an improvement, but the 480 certainly isn't a failure. More DX12 and Vulkan games could even bring that extra improvement over time.

Every single review I've read showed the RX 480 pulling ~170W at stock, while the custom ones are pulling even more power. The 970 sits at about 160-165W even on custom designs

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10 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

If there is a 1080ti. The Titan X is a full GP102 and is a fail so if a 1080ti does come out it will be weaker then a Titan X, the new one, and have worse specs and perform slightly better then a 980ti. 

The Titan XP is not a full GP102. The full chip should have 3840 cores (evident that the Quadro P6000 has 3840 cores and is based on GP102) yet the XP only has 3584. I've been saying for days that this seems more reminiscent of Kepler rather than Maxwell.

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3 minutes ago, Agost said:

Every single review I've read showed the RX 480 pulling ~170W at stock, while the custom ones are pulling even more power. The 970 sits at about 160-165W even on custom designs

Most reviews show the RX 480 drawing 165W. Most GTX 970 reviews show it pulling around 170W. So there's little doubt the RX 480 is more efficient than the 970.

 

Of course the Pascal cards are still considerably more efficient than that. But it's not like we had efficiency parity in the previous generation. AMD improved efficiency by 50-60% compared to the 390, but Nvidia hasn't been standing around twiddling their thumbs in the meantime.

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Just now, Sakkura said:

Most reviews show the RX 480 drawing 165W. Most GTX 970 reviews show it pulling around 170W. So there's little doubt the RX 480 is more efficient than the 970.

 

Of course the Pascal cards are still considerably more efficient than that. But it's not like we had efficiency parity in the previous generation. AMD improved efficiency by 50-60% compared to the 390, but Nvidia hasn't been standing around twiddling their thumbs in the meantime.

The point is that the RX 480 is on a smaller node, this means Maxwell is superior in terms of efficiency. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an nvidia fanboy, I had high hopes for the RX 480 because I'm kinda sick of nvidia, with its bugged drivers and older card nerfs...

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1 minute ago, Agost said:

The point is that the RX 480 is on a smaller node, this means Maxwell is superior in terms of efficiency. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an nvidia fanboy, I had high hopes for the RX 480 because I'm kinda sick of nvidia, with its bugged drivers and older card nerfs...

Maxwell isn't really superior that way, since Maxwell is only made on 28nm. Of course a hybrid... Paswell? ... would have been. But that shrink is a large part of the improvements Nvidia leveraged for the Pascal chips.

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1 hour ago, Sintezza said:

 

Is the RX480 that much better in terms of raw performance then the 390X?

I cannot remember that i have realy seen that.

It kinda trade blows with a R9-390 depending on the game which comes ontop.

You'd think so but you need to remember Hawaii is a powerhouse compared to Polaris. More TMUs, a huge memory interface and most importantly, double the ROPs. With that in mind, I don't think 480 is the best increase in efficiency in the entire Polaris lineup vs. previous AMD cards. I'm curious to see how Polaris 11 and the 470 stack up. 

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4 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Maxwell isn't really superior that way, since Maxwell is only made on 28nm. Of course a hybrid... Paswell? ... would have been. But that shrink is a large part of the improvements Nvidia leveraged for the Pascal chips.

Same power efficiency on a larger node means superior architectural efficiency to me. 

AMD achieved almost the same level of efficiency of Polaris with the R9 Nano... that's why I was hoping for better efficiency on Polaris.


p.s.: efficiency efficiency ok now I wrote efficiency 7 times

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2 minutes ago, Agost said:

Same power efficiency on a larger node means superior architectural efficiency to me. 

AMD achieved almost the same level of efficiency of Polaris with the R9 Nano... that's why I was hoping for better efficiency on Polaris.


p.s.: efficiency efficiency ok now I wrote efficiency 7 times

Myeah, you just have to be careful about separating the architecture from the process that way. Moving an architecture to another process isn't always going to be as straightforward as you'd think. But yeah, you can say Nvidia had an advantage in the architecture when they were both on 28nm, and it's kept that advantage now that they're on 14LPP and 16FF+. AFAIK the jury's still out on how exactly those processes stack up against each other.

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Just now, Agost said:

Same power efficiency on a larger node means superior architectural efficiency to me. 

AMD achieved almost the same level of efficiency of Polaris with the R9 Nano... that's why I was hoping for better efficiency on Polaris.

The reason the nano was so efficient was because the clock speeds were so low. It has more transistors than the 480 by a pretty large margin.... If you took p10 and downclocked it to 800mhz you would be getting 380 or so level performance probably for something under 75 MHz.

 

Since the power consumption-clock speed graph is not linear, if you decrease a cards clock speed by x% the power consumption always goes down by more than x%. So if you try to make that argument that a card from last gen is as efficient as that but the last gen card uses significantly more transistors and has much lower clock speeds you can nearly always make the argument that a last gen card is as efficient as one from this gen. For example, I'm sure if you take a 780ti, a 250 watt card, no cut its clock speeds in half you would get something like GTX 950 level performance for somewhere between 75 and 100 watts, which is basically 950 efficiency. However, the 780ti costs more, uses more die space, and requires a lot more transistors to do this.

 

So imo, that argument isn't really worth anything.

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2 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Myeah, you just have to be careful about separating the architecture from the process that way. Moving an architecture to another process isn't always going to be as straightforward as you'd think. But yeah, you can say Nvidia had an advantage in the architecture when they were both on 28nm, and it's kept that advantage now that they're on 14LPP and 16FF+. AFAIK the jury's still out on how exactly those processes stack up against each other.


Well, considering that TSMC has always made high power processes, while GloFo's 14nm is just a copy of Samsung's 14nm LPP lithography and they are both actually 20nm BEOL, TSMC could have better transistors for high power GPUs (look at 10x0 stock voltages, they are about 0.1V lower than that stock RX 480).

*thoughts freely derived from some @patrickjp93 words about that in some topic*

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Told you guys that Pascal was Maxwell 2.0. It is not a new architecture.

As predicted, and as we see, Pascal is an improved Maxwell, with added new features and for the 1080 GDDR5X, all helping achieving greater performance.

Volta is the new architecture.

 

While not very consistent, Nvidia does the tick-tock thing. Where they release a new architecture, then releases a "2.0" version of it, then releases a new architecture, then it's 2.0, and so on and so forth. Sometimes they release a 3.0 version, if the new architecture is delayed.

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Just now, GoodBytes said:

Told you guys that Pascal was Maxwell 2.0. It is not a new architecture.

As predicted, and as we see, Pascal is an improved Maxwell, with added new features and for the 1080 GDDR5X, all helping achieving greater performance.

Volta is the new architecture.

 

While not very consistent, Nvidia does the tick-tock thing. Where they release a new architecture, then releases a "2.0" version of it, then releases a new architecture, then it's 2.0, and so on and so forth. Sometimes they release a 3.0 version, if the new architecture is delayed.

3.0*

Maxwell 2.0 is 9xx series

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2 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

The reason the nano was so efficient was because the clock speeds were so low. It has more transistors than the 480 by a pretty large margin.... If you took p10 and downclocked it to 800mhz you would be getting 380 or so level performance probably for something under 75 MHz.

 

Since the power consumption-clock speed graph is not linear, if you decrease a cards clock speed by x% the power consumption always goes down by more than x%. So if you try to make that argument that a card from last gen is as efficient as that but the last gen card uses significantly more transistors and has much lower clock speeds you can nearly always make the argument that a last gen card is as efficient as one from this gen. For example, I'm sure if you take a 780ti, a 250 watt card, no cut its clock speeds in half you would get something like GTX 950 level performance for somewhere between 75 and 100 watts, which is basically 950 efficiency. However, the 780ti costs more, uses more die space, and requires a lot more transistors to do this.

 

So imo, that argument isn't really worth anything.

 Yes, but the Nano was on Fury performance levels while pulling ~50W less and was mainly thermal throttled. Looks like GCN has an inherent clockspeed limitation

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