Digital Foundry Makes A Case For 30FPS

[Misanthrope]

you are talking about 2 things:

He says that the FPS is fluctuating on the Pentium K, that is a bad experience, even though the numbers itself says otherwise.

The article is about when you cannot hit over 60 FPS stable due to hardware limitation, it might be useful to lock at 30, so there is no fluctuating and less tearing.

 

A minimal FPS discussion (because fluctuation can be fixed with gsync, freesync and good old frame limiter) is not the point: If your minimal is not 60 that's not that big of your deal. If your average is not 60 that becomes a problem. If you cannot average 60 then you should probably lock at 30 if and only if you are experiencing bad tearing all the time (i.e. I can deal with some tearing rather than limiting since most games will jump to 60 FPS average when indoors) Still (and this is the last time I'm repeating this) this is no excuse to force EVERYBODY to be locked at 30 if they can handle more. This is exactly what started the debate, and also exactly why people who support locking it for everybody at 30 FPS can go fuck themselves: I should be able to have the motherfucking OPTION to play at 60 FPS if I decide to spend more money than the average PC gamer on hardware, no if thens or buts.

[HippY]

A minimal FPS discussion (because fluctuation can be fixed with gsync, freesync and good old frame limiter) is not the point: If your minimal is not 60 that's not that big of your deal. If your average is not 60 that becomes a problem. If you cannot average 60 then you should probably lock at 30 if and only if you are experiencing bad tearing all the time (i.e. I can deal with some tearing rather than limiting since most games will jump to 60 FPS average when indoors) Still (and this is the last time I'm repeating this) this is no excuse to force EVERYBODY to be locked at 30 if they can handle more. This is exactly what started the debate, and also exactly why people who support locking it for everybody at 30 FPS can go fuck themselves: I should be able to have the motherfucking OPTION to play at 60 FPS if I decide to spend more money than the average PC gamer on hardware, no if thens or buts.

quick question: who supports to lock it at 30FPS for everyone?

I am supporting it as an option, and other some really consoly games, like NFS, I do not see it anywhere. The Crew for example had a 30 and 60 FPS limiter, 60 FPS was locked, and I am 100% it can be overwritten in 2 seconds

[Misanthrope]

quick question: who supports to lock it at 30FPS for everyone?

I am supporting it as an option, and other some really consoly games, like NFS, I do not see it anywhere. The Crew for example had a 30 and 60 FPS limiter, 60 FPS was locked, and I am 100% it can be overwritten in 2 seconds

 

Several devs, articles like this one implicitly by making excuses. If you say "Wait a minute, killing people is sometimes justified let's not assume killing people is always bad, let's look at some valid excuses!" in the mist of a trial for a serial killer, You're obviously taking the subject in hand for your own benefit (more views on your article) disregarding how fucking insensitive it is to victims of the very recent murders.

 

Or you forgot the string of idiots saying "Oh your eyes can't see the difference" and "30 FPS looks better" and all that nonsense? I sure as fucking hell have not forgotten and this makes this article infuriating.

[HippY]

Several devs, articles like this one implicitly by making excuses. If you say "Wait a minute, killing people is sometimes justified let's not assume killing people is always bad, let's look at some valid excuses!" in the mist of a trial for a serial killer, You're obviously taking the subject in hand for your own benefit (more views on your article) disregarding how fucking insensitive it is to victims of the very recent murders.

 

Or you forgot the string of idiots saying "Oh your eyes can't see the difference" and "30 FPS looks better" and all that nonsense? I sure as fucking hell have not forgotten and this makes this article infuriating.

This article says that " hey guys, 30 FPS get many hate, but you can use it t your advantage if you cannot play at 60 FPS stable as consoles are using it. But it is no excuse for game makers and console makers to limit PC games 30 FPS exclusively, and Freesync and Gsync will make the game playable at let say 45 FPS and that is a better experience"

 

Nope, I did not, but it was mainly PR bullshit, as far as I perceived it, every PC gamer said the opposite

[Misanthrope]

This article says that " hey guys, 30 FPS get many hate, but you can use it t your advantage if you cannot play at 60 FPS stable as consoles are using it. But it is no excuse for game makers and console makers to limit PC games 30 FPS exclusively, and Freesync and Gsync will make the game playable at let say 45 FPS and that is a better experience"

 

Nope, I did not, but it was mainly PR bullshit, as far as I perceived it, every PC gamer said the opposite

 

Without said PR bullshit I guarantee nobody would care because everybody pretty much knows all of this. So really, it's just riding said PR bullshit, making the article no better and even indirectly supporting said PR bullshit, so fuck it.

[HippY]

Without said PR bullshit I guarantee nobody would care because everybody pretty much knows all of this. So really, it's just riding said PR bullshit, making the article no better and even indirectly supporting said PR bullshit, so fuck it.

 

Do not get me wrong but I totall understand them. I mean there is a ht topic out there, of course they try to milk it, because well it is their job. 

And to be fairly honest they do it well, it is not there to start a flamewar (= it is not like " 30 FPS is cinematic discuss", more like, it can be a good option, but not the best, and no excuse to make the whole game locked for everyone) and they put enough technical information for it be a technical article

 

PR is more meant for the console audience, as they know that you can modify an XML file easily for unlocked frames anyway (not saying it s ethical or good anyway)

[ShadowCaptain]

So wait, this article basically says "if your hardware is not capable of playing at 60fps, play at 30 instead"

 

so if your car cannot go 200 miles per hour, go 100 instead... I mean.. DUH I have no other option really

 

This is such a none-article I dont even know what else to say, its not trying to say 30fps is better, its saying 30fps is better if you cant play at anything higher than 30fps ... no shit sherlock,

[HippY]

So wait, this article basically says "if your hardware is not capable of playing at 60fps, play at 30 instead"

 

so if your car cannot go 200 miles per hour, go 100 instead... I mean.. DUH I have no other option really

 

This is such a none-article I dont even know what else to say, its not trying to say 30fps is better, its saying 30fps is better if you cant play at anything higher than 30fps ... no shit sherlock,

most of the PC gamers are not aware of frame time variance, and if they lock the game at 30/60 it is  better experience at their 60Hz monitor

[ShadowCaptain]

most of the PC gamers are not aware of frame time variance, and if they lock the game at 30/60 it is  better experience at their 60Hz monitor

 

I agree, I just don't like the way it was written, it also made no mention of futre tech such as Gsync and freesync that could make frame time variance and tearing a thing of the past

[typographie]

I don't have a problem with an option being provided to lock framerates at a variety of values, including 30. There is a technical argument in favor of a 30 FPS cap if you're on a 60 Hz monitor and cannot achieve 60 FPS, sure.

 

But as far as I'm concerned, there is no legitimate argument in favor of hard-locking a PC title to 30 FPS. Every type of game is more enjoyable at higher framerates, and many of us would gladly turn off details to get to 60.

[KamiKatze]

A little bit TL;DR

 

Did they ever think about graphic settings? Almost all their arguments are based off the maximum graphic settings. But that's the joy of PC gaming: if the FPS are too low, turn down the graphica fidelity and boom -> back to 60 FPS. Just because console peasants can't do that, doesn't mean you have to lock games to 30.

 

This article is a joke.

[creativename]

60 fps isn't even that smooth. In videos is really smooth. In games its twitchy. 120+ fps is smooth.

[The_Evenger]

i rather have variable 60 than locked 30 any day.

[Sharkyx1]

A little bit TL;DR

 

Did they ever think about graphic settings? Almost all their arguments are based off the maximum graphic settings. But that's the joy of PC gaming: if the FPS are too low, turn down the graphica fidelity and boom -> back to 60 FPS. Just because console peasants can't do that, doesn't mean you have to lock games to 30.

 

This article is a joke.

their example rig is a 750 ti and G3258, and they reference CPU bottleneck, which are difficult, and or impossible to avoid, like the video they did with Crysis 3.

 

These guys make awesome content, and people are just shitting on them for having an opinion piece? 

[KamiKatze]

their example rig is a 750 ti and G3258, and they reference CPU bottleneck, which are difficult, and or impossible to avoid, like the video they did with Crysis 3.

 

These guys make awesome content, and people are just shitting on them for having an opinion piece? 

 

Well what's the point? You can't get a 750 Ti and a pentium and expect to run Crysis 3 on it. What they have shown is a nice trick to get rid of tearing and stuttering to the price of a lower framerate. Nice trick, but who cares in the 30 FPS debate? The point of owning a PC is not capping the framerates at 30 because it's somewhat cinematic. The point is that you have the freedom to choose between 60 FPS, which is much smoother, and not 60 FPS with some more graphical fidelity. What's the point of pushing everyone into one corner, just because game devs are too lazy to make a proper game with poopy consoles. It is possible! Halo 5 runs at 1080P 60 FPS! 30 FPS is for lazy devs and peasants. Let people choose their fate.

[Sharkyx1]

Well what's the point? You can't get a 750 Ti and a pentium and expect to run Crysis 3 on it. What they have shown is a nice trick to get rid of tearing and stuttering to the price of a lower framerate. Nice trick, but who cares in the 30 FPS debate? The point of owning a PC is not capping the framerates at 30 because it's somewhat cinematic. The point is that you have the freedom to choose between 60 FPS, which is much smoother, and not 60 FPS with some more graphical fidelity. What's the point of pushing everyone into one corner, just because game devs are too lazy to make a proper game with poopy consoles. It is possible! Halo 5 runs at 1080P 60 FPS! 30 FPS is for lazy devs and peasants. Let people choose their fate.

but they didn't say "You should play at 30FPS for cinematic cool cool" they are specifically doing this article to show people with low end hardware and or very high resolution displays, that they also have the option to lock at 30 FPS, its just not built into most games, its supposed to be an information peice, since its not the most obvious thing to do. This isn't an article telling people that can run games at 60 to switch to 30, its showing it as an alternative to stuttery 40FPS and fluctuations.

 

You say the point in PC is freedom, yet you say someone with a 750ti and pentium shouldn't even try to play crysis 3, when DF showed clearly that it casn be a great experience, with some comprimises, much better than last gen consoles.

 

 

 

 

Now not directed completely at you, evidence that no one complaining in this thread actually read the article

 

To conclude, let's be clear here - this piece isn't about giving a free pass to poorly optimised titles (though it may help to get better results from them if all other options fail) and we have serious issues with the 'cinematic' gaming argument occasionally rolled out by developer and publishers. It may make sense to run at 30fps on a fixed console platform, but the whole point of PC gaming is that the ability to define the experience rests with the player, based on how he or she wants to play, based on the kit available. The notion of placing arbitrary software limits on a platform where scalability is its key asset makes absolutely no sense to us, and it's no mistake that this argument usually rolls out in tandem with poorly performing software. Instead, think of this as an additional, occasionally invaluable addition to your PC toolbox - an option used by console developers - and often for good reason.

 

[Verne]

I wouldn't mind the whole 30 FPS issue if developers were honest about. Just say the console you are developing for simply is not powerful enough to run the game at 60 FPS (and/or 1080p) instead of coming up with some excuses like "cinematic experience" or "artistic design choice". If its on PC too, then do not lock or limit FPS to make it on par with consoles to not hurt console players' feelings. If you cannot optimize it well, then just say so instead of coming up with excuses; better yet, keep patching the game optimization!

[Sharkyx1]

I wouldn't mind the whole 30 FPS issue if developers were honest about. Just say the console you are developing for simply is not powerful enough to run the game at 60 FPS (and/or 1080p) instead of coming up with some excuses like "cinematic experience" or "artistic design choice". If its on PC too, then do not lock or limit FPS to make it on par with consoles to not hurt console players' feelings. If you cannot optimize it well, then just say so instead of coming up with excuses; better yet, keep patching the game optimization!

To be fair, ubisoft did say the consoles aren't powerful enough for 1080 60, and people still posted digging me mes and stupid shit

 

but then again ubisoft is wrong, as plenty of devs have proven the consoles can produce 1080 60

[KamiKatze]

but they didn't say "You should play at 30FPS for cinematic cool cool" they are specifically doing this article to show people with low end hardware and or very high resolution displays, that they also have the option to lock at 30 FPS, its just not built into most games, its supposed to be an information peice, since its not the most obvious thing to do. This isn't an article telling people that can run games at 60 to switch to 30, its showing it as an alternative to stuttery 40FPS and fluctuations.

You say the point in PC is freedom, yet you say someone with a 750ti and pentium shouldn't even try to play crysis 3, when DF showed clearly that it casn be a great experience, with some comprimises, much better than last gen consoles.

Now not directed completely at you, evidence that no one complaining in this thread actually read the article

Regarding crysis 3 i meant on high details. But well, nice trick anyways. I just dislike the train of thought that capped 30 FPS could even possibly be an alternative to 30-60 fps.

If you do that on your own and get a cinematic gameplay, great. But im just afraid that game devs etc. Could use articles like this to argument for their 30 fps caps.

[Sharkyx1]

If you do that on your own and get a cinematic gameplay, great. But im just afraid that game devs etc. Could use articles like this to argument for their 30 fps caps.

on one note, there is no cinematic gameplay as cinema is prerecorded and has no user input, its a stupid term to cover games that are too demanding for the hardware

 

the other thing is, i really don't see that many devs that actually want 30 locks on PC, like even reddit's sworn enemy Ubisoft for the most part has always pushed 60FPS for PC, except in rare cases like the Club Beta, which will be changed for final release. Shadow of Mordor, just about any FPS, EA games have never really pushed 30FPS games, except that one NFS game, tell me im wrong, but i don't see many devs actively resisting higher frame rates, Tango,one of the few that tried, even said before The Evil Within's Release that they were supporting 60 FPS, and even patched it into the games option menu later, but it was available on release date through a command code

[mr moose]

@Sharkyx1          I think you are fighting a losing battle here,  most people only see "30fps" in the title and they stop thinking there.  People jump to conclusions, which is evidenced by the number of people referencing the cinematic experience, however it was only mention twice in the article (that I remember) once in a subheading and once to say it was an argument that most of us take issue with, yet people didn't bother reading the article, they just jumped on the bandwagon and started making assumptions.  This article was written for those people,  where it failed was not that it is an irrelevant article, it failed because the people who need to read and understand it are too ignorant or too quick to make assumptions to learn from it.

[Tadgh]

Holy shit people

People are calling euro gamer corrupt, or no ethix, or saying this is a gamaaaaaergate issue, when you have no idea.

Digital foundry is one of the best places for getting performance stuff on new games, they don't bend the truth, they just talk about the tech in games, the circle jerk here is just too fucking strong to even accept a second opinion on this. It doesn't matter that they prefer 60 fps, it doesn't matter what they are actually saying you are just too inept

 

 

thank you for being human. I agree with you. I understand the 60fps argument I really do. But some people on here are extremists. And will stop at nothing to please appetite for 60fps. Then once they get it start complaining that a game isn't 120fps..

 

 

60FPS is objectively better, and yet I have played through many of my favorite gaming experiences in 30 on a console. What people are mad about is that developers don't give a fuck about creating games at the caliber they should be created at. It is a tragedy, but the hate is really getting misdirected, especially here.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

@Sharkyx1 I think you are fighting a losing battle here, most people only see "30fps" in the title and they stop thinking there. People jump to conclusions, which is evidenced by the number of people referencing the cinematic experience, however it was only mention twice in the article (that I remember) once in a subheading and once to say it was an argument that most of us take issue with, yet people didn't bother reading the article, they just jumped on the bandwagon and started making assumptions. This article was written for those people, where it failed was not that it is an irrelevant article, it failed because the people who need to read and understand it are too ignorant or too quick to make assumptions to learn from it.

At this point I have to ask; how many times has this been happening in the mere last week? Not only is the "digging joke" bloody stale now, but people keep jumping to conclusions and drawing false parallels for the sake of some popular internet bandwagon. Damn, what happened to individuality these days?

[mr moose]

At this point I have to ask; how many times has this been happening in the mere last week? Not only is the "digging joke" bloody stale now, but people keep jumping to conclusions and drawing false parallels for the sake of some popular internet bandwagon. Damn, what happened to individuality these days?

 

I think people are scared of rejection, scared of being alone.  I see it all the time with students (primary school). It's interesting how this trait extends itself onto a forum which largely provides an anonymous front allowing people to be who they really are.  Oh I could write pages on what the implications of this are.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

I think people are scared of rejection, scared of being alone. I see it all the time with students (primary school). It's interesting how this trait extends itself onto a forum which largely provides an anonymous front allowing people to be who they really are. Oh I could write pages on what the implications of this are.

I think the reason why it happens here is that the pseudo-anonymity is acting like a catalyst to the mob mentality. And to add to this, I feel that the rules on LTT are far too lax to properly handle the issue, where OCN and OC3D have tighter CoCs, and have stronger and more mature communities as a result. I understand what Slick is going for with the relaxed and free area of the net, but it SIMPLY... DOES... NOT... WORK!!