Kingston and PNY ARE NOT Bait and Switching SSDs

[Brainiac777]

Yep im totally immature...

I could care less if people reply to them. What bugs me is when I see following posts completely disregard them and keeping on going about the same thing even when a piece of information that they never apparently considered is presented.

Your sarcastic tone further proves your immaturity.

 

You use the incorrect grammar in your statement "I could care less", it should be "I couldn't care less". If it bugs you, then do not post on a thread, nobody is forcing you. If people don't want to use the piece of information you post, they don't have to, it's their choice. Forcing your thoughts and opinions on others to make them use your information is a violation of their freedom of speech.

[BloodySinner]

I'm not interested in excuses. The damage has already been done and I'll be staying far, far away from their products for the foreseeable future.

[TheProfosist]

Would you like me to name the number of components this sort of this has happened for better or worse without changing the product page or notifying anyone? I couldnt because its endless.

Another big one within recent time I can comment on for SSDs would be with a specific OCZ SSDs where they went to a smaller processing node so SSDs had a less space available. Another non SSD related one would applies to Korean 1440p LG based monitors. The originals were overclockable well above their 60hz max. This was actually due to the fact that the controller was too lenient and not compliant to spec so the models were update with a "fixed" controller that made them barely overclock able at all.

You also can look at some Corsair XMS2 memory I have that is the exact same model number that has anywhere from ver 1.2 all the way to ver 5.3 and everything in between. You can tell the build is different. Sometimes the PCB is a different color or chip layout is different. This is all without even removing the heat spreader. Another great example would be the original Netbook the ASUS Eee PC 701 where it launched with a bunch of hidden features that slowly started to disappear form its insides as time went on.

The fact that this happened doesnt surprise me in the least, however the fact that people are making such a big deal about it does. This is especially the case since there are so many different players in the SSD market and neither of these two are what I could consider to be front runners.

Lastly if you really want a specific version do the research usually you can figure out some way to determine if it meets what your looking for without opening it.

Edit: I forgot to mention that running any of the XMS2 ram together thats one large revision apart or more is next to impossible and even with the smaller settings your going to have to run something looser that it should be.

[TheProfosist]

I read your posts, I tend to read everyone's posts unless I come across a thread that is 10+ pages long and everyone is simply repeating a variation of the same comments over and over again. With those topics I skim through for members I recognize, like you for example. In your other post you defended Kingston and PNY, saying that the disclaimers are there for a reason. I have always been of the opinion that disclaimers are worthless because they essentially claim that everything you have seen advertised about the product may be entirely false and/or changed at a moments notice and that corporations have a self awarded "right" to screw everyone over because they claim not to be responsible for any of their actions. That's like walking around with a shirt that says I could kill someone at any moment and because I wore that shirt I am no longer responsible for my actions nor can I be punished when I decide to go on a killing spree.

I didnt necessaily defend their action im just saying that its well withing their right to do that. It is also something that happens all of the time throughout the tech industry. Hell it happens in just about every industry. The automobile industry would happen to be a crazy one where you can easily have different parts are your can than another the same year due to the location it was build or what time in the year as they may have used a previous years parts or it might be a part from another car that just go updated.

The general one form ASUS as an example is like "All specifications are subject to change without notice. Please check with your supplier for exact offers. Products may not be available in all markets." Basically what that means is get information before you buy. As a mentioned before usually if its something with multiple revisions that is popular you can find something on the internet, usually in a community like LTT, that will give you the means to determine if the product you are buying is indeed the correct one. Prodcut review also help with this as some places may have gotten different batches than others.

The analogy you choose applies in no way really and it seems like your really trying to blow things out of proportion.

[qwertywarrior]

", it recently switched from Toshiba's 19nm Toggle-Mode 2.0 NAND to a 20nm Micron alternative; this was entirely for cost and supply reasons"

 

 

yes this is the definition of bait and switch

[Me1z]

I didnt necessaily defend their action im just saying that its well withing their right to do that. It is also something that happens all of the time throughout the tech industry. Hell it happens in just about every industry. The automobile industry would happen to be a crazy one where you can easily have different parts are your can than another the same year due to the location it was build or what time in the year as they may have used a previous years parts or it might be a part from another car that just go updated.

The general one form ASUS as an example is like "All specifications are subject to change without notice. Please check with your supplier for exact offers. Products may not be available in all markets." Basically what that means is get information before you buy. As a mentioned before usually if its something with multiple revisions that is popular you can find something on the internet, usually in a community like LTT, that will give you the means to determine if the product you are buying is indeed the correct one. Prodcut review also help with this as some places may have gotten different batches than others.

The analogy you choose applies in no way really and it seems like your really trying to blow things out of proportion.

 

Just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it right. You should not be able to change a product's specifications without a public announcement so that any and all future customers have a chance to be informed about your product or without making a change to the name of the product so it is possible to easily tell them apart. Attempting to cover up or limiting exposure to the fact you altered one of your products to reduce costs is false advertising. They were hoping people would base their purchases on the no longer up-to-date product reviews. You would never expect that multiple recent product reviews are all misinformed about the specifications of a product and they were betting on this. It's not like Kingston and PNY did not know what they were doing and this happened to be a coincidence, they intentionally mislead customers so they could increase their profits, plain and simple. 

[TheProfosist]

Just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it right. You should not be able to change a product's specifications without a public announcement so that any and all future customers have a chance to be informed about your product or without making a change to the name of the product so it is possible to easily tell them apart. Attempting to cover up or limiting exposure to the fact you altered one of your products to reduce costs is false advertising. They were hoping people would base their purchases on the no longer up-to-date product reviews. You would never expect that multiple recent product reviews are all misinformed about the specifications of a product and they were betting on this. It's not like Kingston and PNY did not know what they were doing and this happened to be a coincidence, they intentionally mislead customers so they could increase their profits, plain and simple.

With how frequently this actually happening this is far too much to ask from a company. The only reason you had that information in the first place was from a reviewer pulling apart the device. Well at least I havnt read anything stating that the companies themselves claimed they had that memory in their SSDs or claimed they still had it in there while currently only selling models without it.

Did they actually attempt to cover up or limit exposure that they changed chips? From my understanding they just didnt make a announcement about it. Did they ever make an announcement about it originally? Anyone could have popped one of the SSDs open and figured it out just like the reviewers did. They could have then posted somewhere about it and in shot order it would likely be easy to determine if you SSD had the new chips or the old before even opening the retail box.

Minus those chips was their any difference between the drives, very likely not, though I havnt see a side by side comparison of both. Its still the same product. Have you looked at two of the same model HDD that you bought ever months apart? Most times they have a different firmware if not a very different PCB on the bottom. These just have a different revision or version number on them. Another good example would be the Intel transistion from 520 to 530 the only difference here is a die reduction and a firmware update. They actually wouldnt have needed a new model number for something that small in reality. now why did they? At the time that was their highest consumer grade drive and launching a new product gets you a bunch more press than quietly doing a small revision. Now why wasnt this done for the drives being discussed in this thread? Theyre entry level drives with low margin.

I still dont see how this constitutes false advertising if met the specifications of the drive. I dont believe the nand type and manufacturer was one these. Even if it was like I said before small changes like these are covered by that disclaimer.

I dont think "They were hoping people would base their purchases on the no longer up-to-date product reviews" I think they were trying to reduce their BOM so that they could keep up with the ever reducing margin on entry level SSDs.

You keep saying the intentionally did this and that when they likely never thought about mentioning it. Usually manufacturers only comment on the internal of their products when asked because the majority of people could care less. I bet they have done it before with other products its just that no one too notice. Besides this happening regularly with HDDs it also does with RAM where they can change entire brands of chips. I you go a while back I believe linus commented on this when dealing with some kingston server ram as it guaranteed the same BOM on that model for a certain period of time (or something to that effect).

The other thing you need to remember is a review is more than anything advertising and its a fact that products do change over there life span so in depth reviews only really apply to the launch, sometimes pre launch product. There have been a few things in recent years where the pre launch stuff has been tweaked for reviewers and something the original product will never see. This is something I find far worse than a revision to a product after a year.

[Misanthrope]

Would you like me to name the number of components this sort of this has happened for better or worse without changing the product page or notifying anyone? I couldnt because its endless.

 

That's like saying "Would you like me to name the number of people who evade taxes?" That doesn't means that we should stop collecting taxes or persecuting people who evade taxes now does it?

 

I don't care if it's 100% of all PC hardware manufacturers if that was the case I would stop buying new PC hardware period. STOP MAKING EXCUSES for them.

[Earache]

I don't have time to read that whole article right now, but OP's quotes aren't compelling enough for me to change my stance.

 

Alternative naming conventions are necessary when a part swap exhibits a noticeable change in performance. Their marketing department has a lot of backtracking to do.

[Mooshi]

Hmmm....nah. Next set a ram I'm going to get will probably be Crucial or another Mushkin kit. For SSD, I'll stick to Crucial or Samsung since Patriot doesn't make SSDs anymore.

 

Once a reputation is tarnished, it takes forever to gain public trust again. I mean, look how long it's taken American auto firms to stop being shitlisted - people still haven't forgiven them for making subpar products and then taking bailout money. Same goes for Kingston and PNY. When you're not 100% honest with customers, word of mouth can damage your reputation big time. When I order a large pizza, I don't want a medium because it takes less effort. I want what I pay for, no exceptions. You can spew all the legal BS you want that specs are subject to change to cover yourself, it simply means I'm avoiding your products and will advise friends to do the same. You're not being clever, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

[deviant88]

As i tought most likely fake accusation of performance drop,the fact that they changed the hardware inside means nothing.I bought one of the new batches and it works as it should with real reads while loading stuff reported in task manager up to 4xx MB/s and benchmarks even more.

[andriyk47]

Well in the past I would consider Kingston when buying SSDs and RAM, but at this point I will be excluding them. There is just no point buying from them when there is so many other brands I can buy from and have peace of mind.

 

I actually bot Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD yesterday.

[TheProfosist]

Well in the past I would consider Kingston when buying SSDs and RAM, but at this point I will be excluding them. There is just no point buying from them when there is so many other brands I can buy from and have peace of mind.

 

I actually bot Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD yesterday.

The you werent even in the market for the kind of drive they were talking about here which was their value oriented drive.

[andriyk47]

The you werent even in the market for the kind of drive they were talking about here which was their value oriented drive.

 

I was until I read about what Kingston was doing and then I decided to get top of the line and not worry about anything.

[TheProfosist]

I was until I read about what Kingston was doing and then I decided to get top of the line and not worry about anything.

You should do that anyway