[RUMOR][4CHAN][PSA] Watchdogs Torrent Has Hidden Mining Software Running in the Background

[Builder]

No analogy is 100% accurate but in this case the fact that it's not accurate is in my favor, since duplicating a car might reduce the value of other cars (making them less rare etc). That does not apply to things like digital games.

 

Games have always been pretty expensive. If you look back a few decades and factor in inflation then I am pretty sure games haven't gotten that much more expensive, even though piracy for stuff like the NES was next to 0. I call bullshit on the whole "baww games are expensive because people pirate them!". Games are expensive because people still buy them when they are expensive. Want cheaper games? Pirate more and publishers will be forced to lower the prices to attract more customers. As long as people still buy the games, they will continue to charge as much or more for them.

 

Oh course no side is right or wrong. That's why I have mentioned morals over and over again. Some thing it is a horrible crime and I don't think it's a big deal.

You can't drive prices down with crime. Apple doesn't price iPads lower to stop people from stealing them.

 

Games are not that expensive, and as a gamer, it's your habit. No one else is required to fund it for you. The companies that make the games get to decide how much they want you to pay for it, and if you're not willing to pay that much, then you don't really want the game that badly. If you only consume games when you can get them for free, how much do your really value people other than yourself in situations like that?

 

As a tertiary aside, I have created a thread in off-topic because the OP has requested that the piracy debate not happen in his thread. Let's move it there, shall we? 

 

Edit: link to piracy thread

 

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/157529-the-piracy-thread/

[BrandedUpontheGrave]

 

I do find it annoying as well, however at this point it's verging on ad hominem and I think it's time to drop it.

 

The analogies need to stop, as we've already determined, online and offline are very different places where different rules apply. Anecdotal evidence is no good. We have to come back down to actual logic here.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking that myself, whilst analogies can by useful for conveying a point the evidently don't work well in this situation.

 

Are you for real? "It doesn't harm anyone as long as you're not caught so therefore it is okay!". What kind of logic is that? By the same logic, speeding is alright as long as you don't crash, or shooing a gun into a crowd of people is alright as long as it doesn't hit anyone.

Doing things which can physically or mentally harm someone else is not okay.

 

I don't even know what you're trying to say in the first 2/3 of this sentence. Are you talking about peeping? If you are then yes, the act of looking by itself is harmless but you can harm the other person if you are caught. You are putting someone else at risk which is wrong. Your 90% number is just pulled out of thin air, and completely ignores the fact that people who pirate often spend more money on entertainment than other people. "[...] some of it also comes from significantly higher legal purchases of digital music than their non-P2P using peers–around 30% higher among US P2P users."

And the same is true for movies as well: "Compared to those who buy only “legal” content these pirates spend more on movies (£35.57 vs £56.11), music (£43.31 vs £77.24) and TV (£8.28 vs £25.69)."

 

 

Eh... What? Can you please elaborate how I am being a hypocrite because I really don't see it.

Saying that you can use whichever font you want but keep in mind that you are pissing people off is not pretentious because unlike you, I care what other people think. Me and many other people in this thread have said that Times New Roman is annoying and/or hard to read. I told you in a nice and respectable way that if more people than me found your text to be annoying, it would be nice if you could stop. Pretentious is when you try to claim higher importance than others for no reason. In this case, I asked you "hey, I don't like your font, and if other people dislike it too then it would be nice if you could stop using it". I gave my opinion, and said that if more people have the same then it would be nice if you could stop, for everyone's sake. You replied with things like "embracing individuality". You would rather try to be different than to help people out. Do you see how one is fairly humble (asking for others' opinion and asking nicely for you to change) and the other is pretentious (saying that you shouldn't have to change and be like everyone else just because a lot of people want it).

Again, do whatever you want but at least get off your high horse and be a bit more humble in the future.

I won't reply to more comments about fonts because it won't lead anywhere. I will read your reply (if you make one) though.

 

I believe I elaborated as to the "out off my ass" nature of that number in my own comment.

 

You argued that everyone has "different ethics" yet also argue that I should cease using Italics as it "pisses people off" yet since everyone has their own opinion I'm no less in the wrong than your example for piracy since your opinion isn't the only one that's "correct" as for the analogies I agree with builder it's probably best we just stop with those since they don't seem to work.

 

I was going to write something else here but it's gone and flown right out of my mind and as it's clear neither of us is swaying the other in any direction I'll just bow out for the moment.

[LAwLz]

You say you don't think the root of piracy is entitlement, and then say you pirate anime because you don't want to have to actually go to Japan to get it. You do realize that people used to actually do that, right? People actually used to have to go out of their way to get things. Imagine, our parents couldn't even record television! They had to watch it when it came on!

No I didn't think I am entitled to watching anime. I am not sure where you got that idea from. I want to watch it though so I do it in the only way possible. I seriously doubt you can find a single person who has learned such a hard language, then moved across the globe, just because that person want to watch some TV shows. That is utterly insane. There is a difference between "going out of their way to get things" and "changing your entire life because you want to watch a TV show".

"Our X couldn't do Y" is an idiotic argument as well. Why restrict ourselves to the same stupid limitations they had? If we go far enough back then our grand parents didn't even have houses, but since we have that today you want one, right? It's just an argument ad antiquitatem.

You feel that you're entitled to anime in your language (for free), TV when you want to see it (for free), and Diablo (for free). I frankly don't care that you have to go to Japan to get anime, and neither does the rest of the world. Tough cookies. Do it if you want it that badly. The world is not obligated to give you these things when and how you want them. That's not how the free market works. If you want something badly, you buy it, or make it yourself. You don't subvert the system by downloading it for free online and then act like you're an anti-establishment hero who's fighting the good fight against DRM.

Why do you keep adding "for free"? I support the shows I like in other ways such as purchasing officially branded merchandise (like artbooks, figures etc). I can't see it on TV and I can't buy the discs (region locked).

I pay A LOT for the TV channels so that's certainly not free.

I have bought Diablo 2 four times and I had to pirate it in order to play it (since I couldn't enter the CD key).

All 3 of those examples are of me paying MORE than I would have if I hadn't pirated. If I hadn't pirated the anime I wouldn't have bought the other stuff. If I couldn't watch the programs I wanted then I would just cancel my TV subscription. If I hadn't pirated Diablo 2 in order to make the game I had bought work I would just have returned it.

You keep ignoring my arguments and just falls back on "you're not entitled to things, shut up" when I have not once said I think I am entitled to anything. It's just a mindless attempt at ad hominem.

Here's why I'm sick of the "my morals" thing. It has no value to anyone but yourself. Back when my grandparents were growing up, I can assure you that everyone short of the criminals themselves would call piracy theft and agree that it was wrong. But these days, this sense of entitlement has set in. You can't just pirate stuff whenever you want it. You don't deserve and nobody owes to to you.

And here comes the "entitlement" bullshit again... If it really was an "entitlement" issue then we wouldn't see services like NetFlix, Steam and Spotify be so popular. Your entire argument is based around the notion that people think they are entitled to things for free. They don't, they just want the most convenient solution. It doesn't matter at all what your grandparents would have thought when they were growing up because the world changes. Your grandparents might have thought slavery was okay but luckily, the world changes and adapts. Stop with the logical fallacies.

I wasn't talking about the TV show White Collar, it's an actual classification of crime. It's often perpetrated by wealthy people and banks. Money laundering, for example, is a white collar crime that is victimless to the same extent that piracy is, and I'd even argue that piracy isn't.

Oh okay. I Googled it and the first 1,5 pages on Google were about the TV show which is some TV show about crimes.

I don't think money laundering itself should be a crime. Obtaining the money used in money laundering on the other hand, is not a victimless crime. To me, money laundering being illegal makes as much sense as buying a burger at a McDonald's drive-thru in a stolen car illegal. Stealing the car was the crime. Buying the burger should not be a a separate crime.

On the same thread, copyright laws protect the creator. At least, that's the way it has been since 1923. You seem to think that copyright has never and will never protect anyone. Copyright is what makes people's creations a valid good, otherwise they are commoditized and they have no way to make money. Art is a matter of life and death, (not my words) and the creator deserves their due.

Strawman

Do you buy any games or do you pirate them all?

I've barely pirated any games. I got 188 games on Steam right now. Used to have a big pile of Xbox 360 games before I sold most of them (got about 20 left now). Not counting all the older games and consoles I own (Gamecube, N64, Gameboy, NES and Nintendo 3DS) I got maybe 40 more games on top of that list (not counting the The Sims expansions).

Believe it or not, but I am very pro-piracy yet I do it very sparely.

Edit: In the future, please try not to make ad hominem attacks, alright? Your post was clearly an attempt to do one.

You can't drive prices down with crime. Apple doesn't price iPads lower to stop people from stealing them.

Games are not that expensive, and as a gamer, it's your habit. No one else is required to fund it for you. The companies that make the games get to decide how much they want you to pay for it, and if you're not willing to pay that much, then you don't really want the game that badly. If you only consume games when you can get them for free, how much do your really value people other than yourself in situations like that?

As a tertiary aside, I have created a thread in off-topic because the OP has requested that the piracy debate not happen in his thread. Let's move it there, shall we?

Edit: link to piracy thread

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/157529-the-piracy-thread/

That's circular thinking. People steal them because they are valuable, and they won't lower the prices because they are selling very well. If everyone stopped buying iPads then Apple would most likely lower the price (maybe, Apple is a weird company, but most other companies would).

I have no idea what you're trying to argue against with the second part of the post. I never said games were expensive (although I do think some of them are, like consoles games are usually far more expensive than the PC version for some reason, a 30 dollar difference here in Sweden). So yeah, not sure what you are arguing.

I believe I elaborated as to the "out off my ass" nature of that number in my own comment.

You argued that everyone has "different ethics" yet also argue that I should cease using Italics as it "pisses people off" yet since everyone has their own opinion I'm no less in the wrong than your example for piracy since your opinion isn't the only one that's "correct" as for the analogies I agree with builder it's probably best we just stop with those since they don't seem to work.

I was going to write something else here but it's gone and flown right out of my mind and as it's clear neither of us is swaying the other in any direction I'll just bow out for the moment.

No... Ethics are the same from person to person. Morals differs from person to person. I am so tempted to point out the flaws in your logic about writing in italics but I said I wouldn't.

[Murdoch]

 

I can't tell whether you think I'm saying freedom is "buy the shit you want." I happened to be in London the time the riots happened, and I still don't quite understand what happened. I find it hard to tell which side you're on, whether you're saying I think you should be forced to buy things or whether you agree with me. I certainly don't think that's what freedom means, and personally, I have some fairly radical views about what people are and are not entitled to. I think creators are entitled to the fruits of their labor if they so choose to sell it, and if they do, I do not believe the market has the obligation to provide you with what you want.

 

I think you misunderstand what I was getting at. I was saying that the 'sense of entitlement' is a by-product of the market. Companies are extremely good at making their products desirable, and our consumerist society exacerbates that at almost every level. We are bombarded on a daily basis and told we should have these things. Walk into school with a CD walkman, or a Nokia 3310 and watch your peers rip you apart and do the job of the 'advertisers' for them. If you genuinely can't afford these things, society is doing a pretty good job of making you feel excluded.

 

So my point about freedom equating (rather depressingly) to being able to 'buy the shit you want'. Applied only to those people who feel excluded due to economic disparity. The London Riots was a bit of a tangent, but still a good example of how 'economic freedom' a viable political cause, has been confused by consumerism. The marketing is so good, that people don't care about the means, they just want the stuff.

 

Piracy is in the same boat, people may rationalise it all they want. But at the end of the day, whether they buy it or obtain it for free, people just want the stuff.

 

I'm not on anybody's side, like I said I take a pragmatic view of piracy. If you don't want people to pirate, make it more difficult for them to, or make legal services cheaper / better.

[pixeldensity]

Well that's your opinion. My opinion is that Ubisoft deserves the pirates because of crap like Uplay, lies, excessive amount of exclusive editions as well as preorder bonuses.

 

Exactly. This game using Ushit is an excellent reason to pirate it, even if you buy it afterwards. I got AC4 with my card but used the Pirate version to avoid Ushit.

I don't get why UPlay gets so much hate. I've personally never had a major problem with it. Can someone enlighten me to why many people hate on UPlay, though I suspect that half of the people just hate to hate it? Also don't give me the reason that it is b/c steam already exists b/c that is a BS reason. Personally I haven't had any games that didn't register when I bought it on UPlay. I bought some games on sale that wasn't on sale on steam. I believe that multiple vendors is good b/c it allows me to find sales on games that you don't find on other vendors at the time. Also I like how Uplay gives you in-game rewards for Upoint that you can earn. So I can't justify the Pirating b/c of the reason Ubisoft uses UPlay. Maybe because I've haven't bought much games from Uplay directly to find any problems with it.

 

Now just I'm not judging anybody for Pirating b/c what you do with your computer is your own thing.

[LAwLz]

I don't get why UPlay gets so much hate. I've personally never had a major problem with it. Can someone enlighten me to why many people hate on UPlay, though I suspect that half of the people just hate to hate it? Also don't give me the reason that it is b/c steam already exists b/c that is a BS reason. Personally I haven't had any games that didn't register when I bought it on UPlay. I bought some games on sale that wasn't on sale on steam. I believe that multiple vendors is good b/c it allows me to find sales on games that you don't find on other vendors at the time. Also I like how Uplay gives you in-game rewards for Upoint that you can earn. So I can't justify the Pirating b/c of the reason Ubisoft uses UPlay. Maybe because I've haven't bought much games from Uplay directly to find any problems with it.

 

Now just I'm not judging anybody for Pirating b/c what you do with your computer is your own thing.

I don't like having to multiple programs to launch a game. I don't even like Steam. The only reason why I use it is because they sell games for cheap. Games on Steam that uses Uplay are the worst. First I start Steam, then I start Uplay, then the game starts. Just let me start the game directly God dammit...

[ZacDaMan72]

I have the leaked game and it legit works fine. I think it was the 3DM one. Not saying you should do this but that one worked. And yes I am buying the game when it comes out.

[pixeldensity]

I don't like having to multiple programs to launch a game. I don't even like Steam. The only reason why I use it is because they sell games for cheap. Games on Steam that uses Uplay are the worst. First I start Steam, then I start Uplay, then the game starts. Just let me start the game directly God dammit...

personally I don't mind the few seconds or a minute it takes to start up the programs

[mrymr]

I've barely pirated any games. I got 188 games on Steam right now. Used to have a big pile of Xbox 360 games before I sold most of them (got about 20 left now). Not counting all the older games and consoles I own (Gamecube, N64, Gameboy, NES and Nintendo 3DS) I got maybe 40 more games on top of that list (not counting the The Sims expansions).

Believe it or not, but I am very pro-piracy yet I do it very sparely.

 

Edit: In the future, please try not to make ad hominem attacks, alright? Your post was clearly an attempt to do one.

Oh reading minds now are we? The reason I asked is if you only pirate media and don't buy anything you will be biased towards it. By giving a small bit of information you helped me understand your point of view better.

[EChondo]

Everyone, either take your off-topic discussions to PM's or into the Off-Topic subforum. I will not tolerate the continuous flaming that is occurring and will be PM'ing a moderator to close this thread if it continues. I'm all for a good debate, but this isn't a debate that is occurring in this thread.

 

Thanks to all of you that participated in this discussion.

 

PM's.

 

Off-Topic.

[Guest]

Locked - user requested