Marques Brownlee (MKBHD) unboxes Apple Vision Pro

[Thaldor]

The big thing, what is this actually for?

 

The best I can come up with is VR/AR extension to Apple ecosystem, nothing more, something less.

 

Realistically I expected far more polished things from Apple. There's things I expected Apple to do and I expected them to do them way better than they did, like hand culling, that was something I really looked forward to because it's something where I expected Apple to do the best shit ever and it's not as bad as with Quest 3 which basicly doesn't have one but it's far from what you can do with Ultraleap. Another big thing I expected but was let down with was the Mac integration, I expected Apple to blow the competition, especially because they did market "spatial computing" more as extension to desktop and mobile stuff rather than going directly to the VR/AR/XR area, I expected out of box you could connect to your Mac and have at least 4-6 screens in virtual environment with at least 1 with complete interaction possibility (basicly turning one virtual screen into fully fledged touchscreen) and you can get just the one screen used with the trackpad and keyboard.

Both of these can be worked with software but what cannot be updated is the awful frontal screen. Just what the fuck Apple? So much noise about "being present" and all the mumbo jumbo and this is what we got? Like seriously, is that some kind of joke and after first update or couple they fully activate the screen and you get more than 10 pixels to use?

 

Materials are what I expected, way too heavy. Glass is glass and metal is metal, no matter how much marketing and religion you throw at them. Over 600g on your face and it doesn't even include battery is just bad. Like Quest 3 is about 100g lighter and includes the battery. Also the lack of upward support is a fucking design joke, one thing learned from every headset so far has been that you NEED to yank the headset upward from the front for comfort, even the teeny weeny Widescreen Beyond (against which Vision Pro is massive) gets a lot more comfortable with the over the head strap installed and we are talking about a headset that is lighter than some eyeglasses. The battery is also in the joke territory, 3,166mAh, I give Apple points for that so small battery can last that 2-2.5h, but holy shit, going with external battery which basicly frees you to use massive battery capacity because you aren't bound to keep it within the headset, using 10,000mAh or even bigger battery for thrice the use time (if you are comfortable enough to use it more) shouldn't be a problem.

 

But maybe the actual usecase will become clear in the future, especially if the certain problems that can be fixed with software are fixed, but currently, it's expensive niche product which lacks a lot and probably mostly because someone in San Francisco had their head way too far up their ass to thinking they are making something unique instead of making something more familiar and completely destroying the competition.

[ToboRobot]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:32 AM, Monkey Dust said:

I'm struggling to see a use case for these.

 

It's a developer device.  They are selling this for developers to create the applications for this new platform.

The use case is to discover and create future spacial computing with this prototype, and validate it with early adopters.

The first iPhone was very similar.

[HenrySalayne]

9 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

The battery is also in the joke territory, 3,166mAh, I give Apple points for that so small battery can last that 2-2.5h, but holy shit, going with external battery which basicly frees you to use massive battery capacity because you aren't bound to keep it within the headset, using 10,000mAh or even bigger battery for thrice the use time (if you are comfortable enough to use it more) shouldn't be a problem.

This is a communication issue. The battery offers indeed 3,166 mAh but not at 3.7 V (what powerbanks and smartphone batteries generally use as a reference). It has 35-something Wh capacity, which compares roughly to a 10,000 mAh powerbank. However, for that capacity 360 g is pretty chunky. Comparable 37 Wh powerbanks with USB PD do start around 250 g.

 

[Thaldor]

5 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is a communication issue. The battery offers indeed 3,166 mAh but not at 3.7 V (what powerbanks and smartphone batteries generally use as a reference). It has 35-something Wh capacity, which compares roughly to a 10,000 mAh powerbank. However, for that capacity 360 g is pretty chunky. Comparable 37 Wh powerbanks with USB PD do start around 250 g.

 

That's just details, my main point stands, the external battery frees them from the constraints of fitting the battery into the headset and at that point the 2-2.5h usetime is bad. Making it larger isn't a problem anymore, like 500g battery would be massive in your pocket but if that means they could be pushing the usetime to 4-5h hopefully closer to 6h, that 500g in your pocket or on your belt is nothing. Of course you can connect another battery to it and all that but like the biggest problem with standalone headsets is generally the battery life and especially Quest 3 it's bad without the extra battery strap or doing as I do and going wired to +45W charger (also wiring to any external battery is bit difficult since the usual 20W USB PD/QC3 charging isn't enough to keep the headset on), like if my 88.8Wh car starter powerbank could charge 45W through USB-PD (sadly just 20W), I would so get a belt for it just to carry it's 560g weight and have like almost 5x the battery life Quest 3 (18.88Wh battery) and looking at Marques video, that 560g battery isn't that much bigger even when rugged.

[Mud23609]

It's cool, but it's not for me just yet. Give VR and AR tech a few more generations and I can honestly see it becoming very useful to me and even to the average consumer. It's just not there yet though.

[Mark Kaine]

21 hours ago, Thaldor said:

The big thing, what is this actually for?

 

The best I can come up with is VR/AR extension to Apple ecosystem, nothing more, something less.

 

Realistically I expected far more polished things from Apple. There's things I expected Apple to do and I expected them to do them way better than they did, like hand culling, that was something I really looked forward to because it's something where I expected Apple to do the best shit ever and it's not as bad as with Quest 3 which basicly doesn't have one but it's far from what you can do with Ultraleap. Another big thing I expected but was let down with was the Mac integration, I expected Apple to blow the competition, especially because they did market "spatial computing" more as extension to desktop and mobile stuff rather than going directly to the VR/AR/XR area, I expected out of box you could connect to your Mac and have at least 4-6 screens in virtual environment with at least 1 with complete interaction possibility (basicly turning one virtual screen into fully fledged touchscreen) and you can get just the one screen used with the trackpad and keyboard.

Both of these can be worked with software but what cannot be updated is the awful frontal screen. Just what the fuck Apple? So much noise about "being present" and all the mumbo jumbo and this is what we got? Like seriously, is that some kind of joke and after first update or couple they fully activate the screen and you get more than 10 pixels to use?

 

Materials are what I expected, way too heavy. Glass is glass and metal is metal, no matter how much marketing and religion you throw at them. Over 600g on your face and it doesn't even include battery is just bad. Like Quest 3 is about 100g lighter and includes the battery. Also the lack of upward support is a fucking design joke, one thing learned from every headset so far has been that you NEED to yank the headset upward from the front for comfort, even the teeny weeny Widescreen Beyond (against which Vision Pro is massive) gets a lot more comfortable with the over the head strap installed and we are talking about a headset that is lighter than some eyeglasses. The battery is also in the joke territory, 3,166mAh, I give Apple points for that so small battery can last that 2-2.5h, but holy shit, going with external battery which basicly frees you to use massive battery capacity because you aren't bound to keep it within the headset, using 10,000mAh or even bigger battery for thrice the use time (if you are comfortable enough to use it more) shouldn't be a problem.

 

But maybe the actual usecase will become clear in the future, especially if the certain problems that can be fixed with software are fixed, but currently, it's expensive niche product which lacks a lot and probably mostly because someone in San Francisco had their head way too far up their ass to thinking they are making something unique instead of making something more familiar and completely destroying the competition.

i agree... this seems more like a prototype....  this doesn't diminish what it is tho, a well built vr headset with a clear vision (sorry no pun intended lol) unlike every other similar device that doesn't seem to go beyond "plays stupid vr games and gives you nausea." ...

it, as always,  all hinges on what kind of applications they can come up with, and yes that's not limited to, but surely includes games, hopefully much better ones that are currently on the market.

 

that its an apple product may be a curse or a blessing,  imo it's probably its downfall,  but who knows, they're definitely trying to catch lightning again like they did with iPhone,  just in a vastly different landscape,  i somehow just don't see em pulling this off, appreciate it for what it is tho. 

[thevictor390]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:16 AM, ToboRobot said:

It's a developer device.  They are selling this for developers to create the applications for this new platform.

The use case is to discover and create future spacial computing with this prototype, and validate it with early adopters.

The first iPhone was very similar.

I get it and sort of agree, but who are the developers actually developing for? Nothing is announced for a a more mainstream model, it could be years away if ever. And if it really is a glorified devkit, then it's perhaps too refined, look at the Oculus devkits compared to the consumer release for example.

 

The first iPhone was not 2-3x the price of the competition. Or 7x if you look at the Quest 3.

[Thaldor]

7 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

i agree... this seems more like a prototype....  this doesn't diminish what it is tho, a well built vr headset with a clear vision (sorry no pun intended lol) unlike every other similar device that doesn't seem to go beyond "plays stupid vr games and gives you nausea." ...

it, as always,  all hinges on what kind of applications they can come up with, and yes that's not limited to, but surely includes games, hopefully much better ones that are currently on the market.

 

that its an apple product may be a curse or a blessing,  imo it's probably its downfall,  but who knows, they're definitely trying to catch lightning again like they did with iPhone,  just in a vastly different landscape,  i somehow just don't see em pulling this off, appreciate it for what it is tho. 

The features and the product is good. Screens are awesome, the lenses might need a bit thinking especially that you could use glasses with them, the cameras are top notch and the processing is good.

 

But at least what I have collected, the current software is just bad. Like that bad the OG Vive has better features than the Vision Pro in the use the Vision Pro is kind of marketed and what has been always specialty of Apple. And I mean that in SteamVR you can project all of your monitors in VR with OG Vive and use them completely in VR without reaching for your mouse and keyboard, what I have seen with Vision Pro it is only the main screen of your Mac and you can only use it with the peripherals connected to that Mac, which is a complete joke. Even Facebook has the same feature built in to the Oculus software and you can do exactly the same than with the Vision Pro but with all of your monitors, even with Quest 2/3 handtracking.

 

Somehow this is so unApple thing that the software side is just "whatever, we let someone else figure everything out". Like even the basic eyetracking stuff like foveated rendering is actually only for apps/games that use Unity because Vision Pro strictly uses the foveated rendering built in to Unity that everyone else can also use and at least HTC, Varjo and Facebook also have their own systems to leverage their own hardware better than the Unitys generic system.

I don't know does it even support gestures wit hhandtracking. At least in Marques's video he gets the basic menu out only with the knob which seems kind of primitive compared to Quest's "look at right hand palm and touch index finger and thumb to summon handtracking quick menu".

 

Not to even mention that using BT controllers for gaming is directly back to Oculus DK era headsets. I expected at least some kind of motion controllers just because even the way more developed handtracking systems are still bit in the development (mainly getting the skeleton always right even when hand is only partially visible and in bad lighting situations and yes that includes IR cameras like what the Leap Motion uses and even with LiDAR it's still a problem).

[Obioban]

Part 3:

 

 

[AngryBeaver]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:46 PM, Obioban said:

Summary

Reviewers have started posting up their thoughts on the Apple Vision Pro.

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

Feels like the beginning of a new era. The daring fireball one is particularly in depth.

 

Sources

https://daringfireball.net/2024/01/the_vision_pro

https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr-ar-headset-features-price

https://www.wsj.com/tech/apple-vision-pro-review-39f2d82e

https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/smart-glasses/apple-vision-pro-review

These reviews kill me. They are talking about a feature that has been present in the Meta Quest line for a good while. Sure the passthrough on Quest 2 was in black/white, and the quest 3 cameras are still a little grainy... but you can do all of this immersive watching of videos in that platform. 

I mean you can download an app on Meta and watch a movie in a virtual theater with all of your friends sitting next to you where you can interact with them. I am just not a fan of how people act like Apple just did something amazing, yet it is something that was already possible with other headsets.

I am not saying the apple pro isn't a good vr headset, but it hasn't drastically changed anything all it has done has put another big name in the VR/AR/MR space. 

[Obioban]

1 hour ago, AngryBeaver said:

These reviews kill me. They are talking about a feature that has been present in the Meta Quest line for a good while. Sure the passthrough on Quest 2 was in black/white, and the quest 3 cameras are still a little grainy... but you can do all of this immersive watching of videos in that platform. 

I mean you can download an app on Meta and watch a movie in a virtual theater with all of your friends sitting next to you where you can interact with them. I am just not a fan of how people act like Apple just did something amazing, yet it is something that was already possible with other headsets.

I am not saying the apple pro isn't a good vr headset, but it hasn't drastically changed anything all it has done has put another big name in the VR/AR/MR space. 

Spoken like someone who hasn't used it.

 

It's different because it does those things well. The AVP is the first headset I've ever worn where the screens weren't so bad as to actively bother me. The AR spatial tracking is an order of magnitude better.

 

Really, it's all pretty typical Apple. They're rarely (never?) the first company to do something. They're routinely the first company to do something well.

[AngryBeaver]

8 minutes ago, Obioban said:

Spoken like someone who hasn't used it.

 

It's different because it does those things well. The AVP is the first headset I've ever worn where the screens weren't so bad as to actively bother me. The AR spatial tracking is an order of magnitude better.

 

Really, it's all pretty typical Apple. They're rarely (never?) the first company to do something. They're routinely the first company to do something well.

I agree and disagree.

It 100% has better Cameras. The Spatial Tracking isn't necessarily better, but the AR experience is much improved because of the camera quality on the device. I also much prefer the higher definition oled displays, but the ones offered on the quest 3 are by no means bad. The resolution on them is perfectly fine... they just don't give you nice true blacks and you need to play with the brightness settings to make some content enjoyable. 

Then again, we are talking a 500 dollar device compared to one 7 times the cost at 3500. It would be absurd if the quest 3 beat it on those areas. That said, quest 3 does beat the apple pro in plenty of other areas like gaming and such. 

I am glad Apple got in the game. It means we will start to see more adoption in the VR/AR/MR space. Now we just need an AAA title or two to jump on the bandwagon and we will see the industry leap forward.

[Thaldor]

ShortCircuit video out and it perfectly demonstrates what I am saying about being something less.

 

The hardware is fantastic, minus the weight, the plastic front which is more marketing problem (sorry, laminated glass) and the complete lack of learning from others when it comes to make comfortable headbands (that "ugly" and "hair messing" band coming directly up from the headset is pretty big thing until we get headsets that weight as much as eyeglasses).

 

The software is where Apple drops the ball almost completely. What the fuck is that Mac pairing? Joke from the early 2000's? Just to fuck with Apple fans, I am writing this with my main rig but I am lying in my bed in completely different floor of my house and watching anime on second screen while some random social stuff is on the third screen. It's a bit pain to use only two fingers but hey, that is a lot more than what you can do with 7 times more expensive headset.

And I am not even yet leveraging 3rd party software like Virtual Desktop that would allow me to do this over the internet from Bogo Bogo island while sipping Pina Colada from coconut.

It may not look as good but this is all software which used to be Apples core expertise, the very reason why Apple has mopped the floor with their "new" products.

 

At least the foveated rendering is applied everywhere and not just in Unity "apps" and the hand culling isn't as bad as with the Marques videos but still pretty far from what you can do with Leap (and taping that thing into other headsets is so common that Index even has a perfect slot for it, it's just $130 or something around there and I would think with a bit of deving and correct angling you could do 10 finger typing with it). At least Apple is using IR-lights to illuminate the surroundings so you can use the hand tracking in dark.

 

Also kind of bummer that the Vision Pro pass-through delay is just 12ms, which is exactly the same as with Snapdragon XR2 gen 2, depending on resolution and stacking, but yeah, not that big deal, great, but nothing too special.

 

There's a ton of work for app developers to flesh out the Vision Pro and new waters to search. Hopefully Apple developers get the potential of the hardware and Apple really isn't just throwing hype features to the wall and watching passively from the side which ones devs manage to get stick. Stuff like making the Mac pairing better (or at least the level the competition is), looks like the hand gestures are also on very primitive level and I would say getting some bigger players interested on the platform is something Apple must actively do especially when it comes to games, like it didn't take long to get big players interested about VR in the first place, we have seen Bethesda and couple others failing pretty badly just because they didn't get what VR is all about, Crytek with The Climb has been long time good and surprisingly Ubishit really managed to make something good with the Assassin's Creed Nexus VR (seriously, that is GOOD, maybe a bit problems here and there but which doesn't have some).

[GoStormPlays]

On 1/30/2024 at 2:43 PM, Shimejii said:

Honestly nothing from what ive seen makes this seem anything other then a failure.

The Apple Vision Pro sold 200,000 units in its first week.

The original iPhone sold 270,000 units in its first week.

 

The Apple Vision Pro cost 7x the price of the original iPhone.

I call that a success.

[Shimejii]

3 hours ago, GoStormPlays said:

The Apple Vision Pro sold 200,000 units in its first week.

The original iPhone sold 270,000 units in its first week.

 

The Apple Vision Pro cost 7x the price of the original iPhone.

I call that a success.

How many of those were reviewers and such that have now returned them. Id bet at least 25-40% got returned at minimum of that 200k total. Take the braindead fans that buy everything apple even if they have no use: id estimate to say after returns  its been about 75k-100k units sold. Not bad at all, but far from a success for A company that is use to selling in the millions of units, anything under that is deemed a failure.

 

[GoStormPlays]

36 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

How many of those were reviewers and such that have now returned them. Id bet at least 25-40% got returned at minimum of that 200k total. Take the braindead fans that buy everything apple even if they have no use: id estimate to say after returns  its been about 75k-100k units sold. Not bad at all, but far from a success for A company that is use to selling in the millions of units, anything under that is deemed a failure.

 

You really think that 125,000 units were returned??? 
 

 

Edit: I went searching, and Kuo estimates that 1% of units were returned, which is fairly standard.

 

36 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

Not bad at all, but far from a success for A company that is use to selling in the millions of units, anything under that is deemed a failure.

You have to consider that these things that they’re selling millions of units of in the first weeks are products that aren’t fairly new in an industry and that those devices are all a fraction of the cost of the Vision Pro.

[Obioban]

16 hours ago, Shimejii said:

How many of those were reviewers and such that have now returned them. Id bet at least 25-40% got returned at minimum of that 200k total. Take the braindead fans that buy everything apple even if they have no use: id estimate to say after returns  its been about 75k-100k units sold. Not bad at all, but far from a success for A company that is use to selling in the millions of units, anything under that is deemed a failure.

 

From supply chain leaks, a million units is the upper limit of what they can possible sell all year-- that's as many screens as Sony can supply (/2). So, at least internally to Apple, 1 million units would certainly not be considered a failure but a max possible success.

 

And, yes, return rate is 1%.