Buying a New Car is Stupid

[djksm]

my mom used to have this same car, a few years ago. it was a hybrid model. we upgraded because the batteries died

[aisle9]

$300 for a dash cam with the same STARVIS 2 sensor that comes in $100 units. "bUt iT hAs a ReAr cAmErA!!!!!11"

 

Linus be after 'dem sweet sweet affiliate dollars.

 

Also, to those pimping EVs, I will consider an EV when they stop spontaneously combusting. I'm convinced that Teslas are intentionally designed to control the rich people population.

[Xiphan]

My first car was also a black Honda Civic, albeit a UK model 2008 hatch:

 

 

I absolutely loved it and I can totally understand Plouffe's reluctance to get rid of his. For a first car it was a dream car, it was reliable and gave me very few problems except for the fact that its radio only supported MP3 CDs and didn't have Bluetooth. I also had plans to upgrade the radio to a double DIN radio once I finished paying it off, but I sadly never got the chance as the car was written off in an accident in 2015. I still miss that car to this day, so I just wanna say thank you so much for the nostalgia trip and for giving me a glimpse into what could've been.

[danwat1234]

326K miles yes miles on my 2013 Chevy Volt. Abusive food delivery miles. Seriously jaw dropping abusive.  Electric drive is win! I just bought another 4 cheap just in case i ever need to bring it to active status. 

Has a Kolchuga skid plate.

 

1999 Civic automatic 260K miles
Pic is a bit old, car not quite the same.

[WiscoMetro]

In the off chance I'm lost I'll use my phones GPS. Otherwise I don't want an ever glowing menace on my dashboard. If I'm driving at night I shouldn't need to drape a piece of cloth over a screen, Windows 95 had screensavers how don't these new cars... I love my stock AM/FM/cassette radios with a tiny green VFD display which dims with the instrument cluster!

 

I would generously estimate over the past 9 years I've spent $8000 on my fleet of mid 1990's Geo Metros and a whole wad of parts whether needed in the moment or stockpiled for later. They've been quite reliable and have never been to a mechanic, I've been able to learn to fix whatever issues have arose. The red one is no more but that leaves me with 3. I briefly also had a truly like new 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage, which felt like a downgrade over the Metros quite honestly, though capable of 1-2 mpg more. I sold that for what I had in it when the used car bubble was happening.

 

The 1995 Geo Metro was the first model to meet the 1997 safety standard, though "safety" is a non factor in my opinion. I know exactly how my car will react to a given input. I remember having a friend tell me shortly after Cyberpunk came out how it seemed I was "jacked into" the car, fair analogy. The safest car is the one driven in a safe defensive manner. If I had to fight automated systems I surely would have got into a couple of accidents by now which in reality were very close calls.

 

I have maintained a lifetime average of 51 MPG (4.6 L/100km)across all my cars despite their age thanks to their famous 3 cylinder engine and 5 speed manual. When my current winter car rusts out (which is pushing 600k km and still getting 47ish mpg in the winter) I'm looking to buy a Fiat 500e or Mitsubishi i-Miev for $3500 or less. Those are the only two EVs that I've found that had a handbrake and no touchscreen!

 

Though the Hyundai Ioniq 6 is the first car since the Mirage which has seriously got my attention, despite its modern annoyances, so that is also a possibility.

 

 

 

[ThankGodItsFriday]

So, how old is too old in regards to upgrades to your vehicle? 80s? 70s? 60s?

[BetterThanA4090]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:21 PM, Zodiark1593 said:

Would sooner buy a motorcycle, than ever paying out current, post-covid prices for a new car (of which, I already have a license for).

 

That said, happily, at 204K miles, my 2013 Mazda 3 is doing pretty decently. 

My Mazda 2 from 2012 is holden up great! 

[WiscoMetro]

15 hours ago, ThankGodItsFriday said:

So, how old is too old in regards to upgrades to your vehicle? 80s? 70s? 60s?

Depends on what, 12V overtook 6V for vehicle electronics around the 50s/60s, so that'd be the cutoff for plug and play 12V additions.

I think double DIN form factor radios date to the 80s so to pop in that touchscreen that'd be the time. But for just audio don't forget about cassette to 3.5mm adapters.

LED headlights for composite(modern) lenses have a much greater variety than sealed beam(old glass rectangle) headlights, and that transition happened in the 80s/90s as well.

 

Commercially available vehicle monitoring tools such as the Scangauge or Ultragauge or Blutooth transponders for the Torque app depend on OBDII which began in 1996 for most vehicles and is still used. Though I have a similar real time MPG tracking tool called an MPGuino which is a open source project based on an Arduino for my '95s OBDI system, that still depends upon having electronic fuel injection which overtook carburetors also in the 80s/90s time window.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider daily driving anything before the late 80s. Already my cars are as old as I am, believe it or not I'm not particularly into old cars but despite nearing 30 years old still only the highest efficiency cars of today can match mileage I can get. A purpose built gem. To put into prospective what a lack of progress that is that is: this is what a laptop looked like when they were made: .

[Kal Orar]

I'm confused as to what the receiver has to do with not being able to add the rear dashcam. Was that a mistake or does someone understand what they were talking about?

[WiscoMetro]

It was not that they couldn't, but that was needed to match the composite output of the backup camera to a receiver with a composite in. No composite in = no backup camera seamlessly installed without extra clutter :) .

[ThankGodItsFriday]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:34 AM, WiscoMetro said:

Depends on what, 12V overtook 6V for vehicle electronics around the 50s/60s, so that'd be the cutoff for plug and play 12V additions.

I think double DIN form factor radios date to the 80s so to pop in that touchscreen that'd be the time. But for just audio don't forget about cassette to 3.5mm adapters.

LED headlights for composite(modern) lenses have a much greater variety than sealed beam(old glass rectangle) headlights, and that transition happened in the 80s/90s as well.

 

Commercially available vehicle monitoring tools such as the Scangauge or Ultragauge or Blutooth transponders for the Torque app depend on OBDII which began in 1996 for most vehicles and is still used. Though I have a similar real time MPG tracking tool called an MPGuino which is a open source project based on an Arduino for my '95s OBDI system, that still depends upon having electronic fuel injection which overtook carburetors also in the 80s/90s time window.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider daily driving anything before the late 80s. Already my cars are as old as I am, believe it or not I'm not particularly into old cars but despite nearing 30 years old still only the highest efficiency cars of today can match mileage I can get. A purpose built gem. To put into prospective what a lack of progress that is that is: this is what a laptop looked like when they were made: .

Man, that IBM ThinkPad looks sooo cool! I wish they hadn't turned the brand over to Lenovo...

 

My thinking on the matter is that it's not impossible. However, the older the car, the more time and money it would take to bring it up to date. If President Biden has his way, though, there will be no gasoline cars in the United States by 2030 (and considering Linus Sebastian lives in Canada, this may not affect him or his team, but then again I don't know what Trudeau is planning in the automotive space), however that does not necessarily mean the old car bodies have to be discarded. People tend to be pretty clever in how they fit new parts in old car bodies, so it's just a matter of removing all the internal parts and replacing them with new parts that are better suited to today's standards.

 

Hopefully, though, the transition to better electric cars (and I really need to stress on the word "better" because they have yet to prove themselves fully reliable - think car batteries dying or exploding due to them being made with lithium) will be smooth instead of rushed. I like the concept of electric cars (and I don't really care about them saving the environment), but I do worry that this push for progress is full of half-baked ideas that have yet to mature to a more stable state.

[randy123]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:59 PM, aoxomoxoa said:

What a classist comment. What's the point of shaming those who buy a gas car? Most of the time, it is more economical to buy a gas powered car, especially those who cannot afford the ridiculously high price tags ($30k-$60k? Sheesh!). I live in Missouri, and I drive a 2008 Honda CRV, and I use it for storm chasing. Zero car payment, okay gas mileage, semi-infinite space. Have you seen the articles where Teslas in Chicago have limited range and straight up do not start due to the sub-zero temperatures? Electric vehicles are simply not ready and are only useful in urban centers where 1): electric chargers are numerous 2): do not get sweltering cold.

 

Before you judge somebody for getting a gas-powered car, understand why somebody gets a gas powered car.

 

Comment aside, my previously mentioned CRV has been upgraded with Apple Carplay and could not go without it. Although I wish I got a better head unit, there's no point in upgrading twice when the car isn't going to be a permanent one. 216K miles / 345.6K KM with another 216K miles / 345.6K KM to go!

 

On 1/20/2024 at 2:59 PM, aoxomoxoa said:

What a classist comment. What's the point of shaming those who buy a gas car? Most of the time, it is more economical to buy a gas powered car, especially those who cannot afford the ridiculously high price tags ($30k-$60k? Sheesh!). I live in Missouri, and I drive a 2008 Honda CRV, and I use it for storm chasing. Zero car payment, okay gas mileage, semi-infinite space. Have you seen the articles where Teslas in Chicago have limited range and straight up do not start due to the sub-zero temperatures? Electric vehicles are simply not ready and are only useful in urban centers where 1): electric chargers are numerous 2): do not get sweltering cold.

 

Before you judge somebody for getting a gas-powered car, understand why somebody gets a gas powered car.

 

Comment aside, my previously mentioned CRV has been upgraded with Apple Carplay and could not go without it. Although I wish I got a better head unit, there's no point in upgrading twice when the car isn't going to be a permanent one. 216K miles / 345.6K KM with another 216K miles / 345.6K KM to go!

Typical g*s heads.

electric cars are the same price as regular cars. you can get a good EV for 20k nowadays. There is no excuse other than being uneducated or wanting to kill the environment to buy a g*s car.

[Godlygamer23]

1 hour ago, randy123 said:

Typical g*s heads.

electric cars are the same price as regular cars. you can get a good EV for 20k nowadays. There is no excuse other than being uneducated or wanting to kill the environment to buy a g*s car.

Why are you censoring gas? Is that the new swear word? 

[Lomac]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:26 AM, randy123 said:

 

Typical g*s heads.

electric cars are the same price as regular cars. you can get a good EV for 20k nowadays. There is no excuse other than being uneducated or wanting to kill the environment to buy a g*s car.

The cheapest EVs in Canada are in the high $30k to low $40k range (less incentives, but they differ based on what province you're in.) The cheapest ICE cars are in the low $20k range. There's still a pretty large price gap between them and for many people who want a new, reliable car under warranty that extra $20k is a financial deal breaker.

[randy123]

3 hours ago, Lomac said:

The cheapest EVs in Canada are in the high $30k to low $40k range (less incentives, but they differ based on what province you're in.) The cheapest ICE cars are in the low $20k range. There's still a pretty large price gap between them and for many people who want a new, reliable car under warranty that extra $20k is a financial deal breaker.

Why lie? Got something to hide?

Electric cars going for 20k in Canada, I'm looking in autotrader 

They are simply better, using g*s is ignorant 

[Karthanon]

On 1/20/2024 at 8:08 AM, Plouffe said:

New cars are expensive

Not stupid.

Just bought a new car, due to my vehicle tossing it's chain and the valves going bendy, 0 engine compression after. Oh well.

Not EV (although I wouldn't have minded a PHEV). Just didn't want to spend the full monty to get one.

And a new EV for $20k? Where?

[Lomac]

4 hours ago, randy123 said:

Why lie? Got something to hide?

Electric cars going for 20k in Canada, I'm looking in autotrader 

They are simply better, using g*s is ignorant 

Re-read my last sentence...

 

Used cars are one thing, but many people want/need the full length warranty coverage and EVs are not there yet when pricing out a new car for those on relatively low budgets.

[DrMacintosh]

I bought a used 2007 Ford Taurus SE w/ 183k miles for $1000 in July of 2023. This car has needed so many repairs, all in I've spent about $5000 in maintenance and repairs. This car is arguably a financial mistake. However, the engine and transmission are still fine, the AC and heater work, and the fact that I have CarPlay in it means this car is reliable enough and enjoyable enough to be my daily drive. It does great on 300 mile+ road trips, and the best part is, its paid for. Every repair/maintenance item I've had done was paid for in full.

 

Sure, all the money I spent on it could have went towards a down payment on something like a brand new Honda Accord....but then I'd be stuck with a huge monthly payment and insane insurance prices.

 

I'll stick with keeping my Taurus alive until the engine blows up.

[Beerzerker]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:26 AM, randy123 said:

 

Typical g*s heads.

electric cars are the same price as regular cars. you can get a good EV for 20k nowadays.

Bullshit.

They are more expensive to buy, maintain, repair and keep in operation and that's just for the car.

In addition, you still have to buy a charger AND pay to have it setup (Wiring it into the home's electrical feed and that's expensive too) along with required maintenance and repairs for all that too.
Not to mention your power bill goes up....
Ain't no free ride here.

And it takes all that's just to get started with one.

They weigh more too because of the battery so naturally tires wear faster which equals more scrap tires having to be disposed of over time, which you will be paying for as well each and every time.

Speaking of charging, if you lose power for whatever reason to the home you're probrably screwed until it comes back on and electrical infrastructure, with things the way things are now simply can't reliably handle the load they have to bear now, much less the extra load on top of that they WILL place on it or we woudn't be having things like rolling blackout as a reality of life in certain places (California?) and that's with perfect weather around there.
Gets worse once storms roll in....

Let's also hope you don't have a "Rolling blackout" in a critical (Life or death) situation with a dead battery.

That also applies to charging stations which cannot be guaranteed to have a charger readliy available (Long lines?) when you need it, along with the time it takes just to "Fill up".
All that applies IF the charging station itself is in working shape - You know how stuff open to the public gets abused anyway.

We saw that a couple weeks ago up in places like Chicago and these things were going dead faster than they could be charged... And it's also FACT the battery MUST be pre-conditioned to even accept a charge in the first place or you'll just be standing there.

Get a load of these in a parking deck and sooner or later something bad will happen because parking decks "As Is" were never meant to hold up all the increased weight on a constant basis, that also applies to bridges that will need replacing due to the additional stress ("Wear") they take just handling the increased "On average" weight loads they have to handle over time.

Battery catches fire:
Evacuate the block due to all the toxic chemicals released and you'll have to wait for it to burn out while it's belching all that "Enviromentally Friendly" smoke until it finally goes out. Depending on where it flames up, you may even lose everything you own, if not your own ass too in the house that burns down from a battery sparking off in your garage.
These fires will easily spread to other things too.... Like other cars in a parking lot creating even more smoke/gasses too, and if they happen to be EV's themselves it turns into a chain-reaction of ther same.... With even more "Bad" gasses released.

Well, at least hope yours isn't in the same parking lot.

A gas vehicle CAN be put out quickly vs when one of these goes off and with far less water used to do it too.

They also do not keep their value.
Many, if not most being scrapped once the battery goes bad because it's not worth it to repair (Totalled).

 

On 1/27/2024 at 9:26 AM, randy123 said:

There is no excuse other than being uneducated or wanting to kill the environment to buy a g*s car.

I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd just stay on topic here BUT I seriously doubt that's gonna happen the way you are trying to shove your EV agenda onto everyone whether they agree with you or not, and your backhanded insults aren't helping either.

And you can stop with the "g*s" wording, we know exactly what you mean so just come out and say it already.

[randy123]

14 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

maintain, repair and keep in operation and that's just for the car.

Stopped reading your post there, lying in your first sentence.

Enjoy typing all that out for me just not to read it if your going to just spread misinformation

[Agall]

39 minutes ago, randy123 said:

Stopped reading your post there, lying in your first sentence.

Enjoy typing all that out for me just not to read it if your going to just spread misinformation

The simple reality that most people can drive around safely for years without maintenance is a marvel of engineering. EVs are still in their infancy, same with battery technology in comparison to where combustion engines are in 2024. As much as I love the idea of EVs, there's simply worth it in most of the world, and there's better alternatives, including decent quality used vehicles. 

 

If we're talking a nuclear powered city whose electrical grid can handle everyone having EVs and the city is setup to charge them, its definitely the way to go. I imagine there's an example of that somewhere, but its mostly a fantasy to think EVs are ecologically/economically friendly for most people outside of that environment. How energy is transported and stored being extremely important, almost as important as the source, on top of how fast you can transfer that energy.

 

I personally drive a used 2017 Tacoma TRD I've had for nearly 4 years. I have no intention to replace the vehicle until I absolutely have to or it doesn't become economically friendly to keep. I've considered EVs multiple times, even an EV motorcycle to use as a more ecologically friendly way to commute when possible. I don't intend to switch fully until we get another evolution point in battery technology that's less volatile and ecologically friendlier to manufacture, especially with the cost of electricity in my area.

[Karthanon]

1 hour ago, randy123 said:

Stopped reading your post there, lying in your first sentence.

Enjoy typing all that out for me just not to read it if your going to just spread misinformation

None of his points are incorrect, but if you don't want to honestly engage, I suppose that's up to you.

We don't have the full infrastructure available yet for EV adoption - if we want that, well, we should get busy building more nuclear power plants. Wind/solar is not going to generate enough for a planet full of EV's.

[Agall]

28 minutes ago, Karthanon said:

None of his points are incorrect, but if you don't want to honestly engage, I suppose that's up to you.

We don't have the full infrastructure available yet for EV adoption - if we want that, well, we should get busy building more nuclear power plants. Wind/solar is not going to generate enough for a planet full of EV's.

Too bad places decided to otherwise cancel or shut down their nuclear power plants.

[Lomac]

15 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Bullshit.

They are more expensive to buy, maintain, repair and keep in operation and that's just for the car.

In addition, you still have to buy a charger AND pay to have it setup (Wiring it into the home's electrical feed and that's expensive too) along with required maintenance and repairs for all that too.
Not to mention your power bill goes up....
Ain't no free ride here.

And it takes all that's just to get started with one.

They weigh more too because of the battery so naturally tires wear faster which equals more scrap tires having to be disposed of over time, which you will be paying for as well each and every time.

Speaking of charging, if you lose power for whatever reason to the home you're probrably screwed until it comes back on and electrical infrastructure, with things the way things are now simply can't reliably handle the load they have to bear now, much less the extra load on top of that they WILL place on it or we woudn't be having things like rolling blackout as a reality of life in certain places (California?) and that's with perfect weather around there.
Gets worse once storms roll in....

Let's also hope you don't have a "Rolling blackout" in a critical (Life or death) situation with a dead battery.

That also applies to charging stations which cannot be guaranteed to have a charger readliy available (Long lines?) when you need it, along with the time it takes just to "Fill up".
All that applies IF the charging station itself is in working shape - You know how stuff open to the public gets abused anyway.

We saw that a couple weeks ago up in places like Chicago and these things were going dead faster than they could be charged... And it's also FACT the battery MUST be pre-conditioned to even accept a charge in the first place or you'll just be standing there.

Get a load of these in a parking deck and sooner or later something bad will happen because parking decks "As Is" were never meant to hold up all the increased weight on a constant basis, that also applies to bridges that will need replacing due to the additional stress ("Wear") they take just handling the increased "On average" weight loads they have to handle over time.

Battery catches fire:
Evacuate the block due to all the toxic chemicals released and you'll have to wait for it to burn out while it's belching all that "Enviromentally Friendly" smoke until it finally goes out. Depending on where it flames up, you may even lose everything you own, if not your own ass too in the house that burns down from a battery sparking off in your garage.
These fires will easily spread to other things too.... Like other cars in a parking lot creating even more smoke/gasses too, and if they happen to be EV's themselves it turns into a chain-reaction of ther same.... With even more "Bad" gasses released.

Well, at least hope yours isn't in the same parking lot.

A gas vehicle CAN be put out quickly vs when one of these goes off and with far less water used to do it too.

They also do not keep their value.
Many, if not most being scrapped once the battery goes bad because it's not worth it to repair (Totalled).

 

I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you'd just stay on topic here BUT I seriously doubt that's gonna happen the way you are trying to shove your EV agenda onto everyone whether they agree with you or not, and your backhanded insults aren't helping either.

And you can stop with the "g*s" wording, we know exactly what you mean so just come out and say it already.

I love me an ICE vehicle just as much as the next car enthusiast (I have a track prepped GTI that I regularly race, and my two daily driver cars are also gas powered) but some of your arguments aren't the greatest to be made.

 

Tires - So long as you put on tires with the proper load rating, they will generally last as long as those on lighter vehicles. Top tire brands also make EV-specific models. I've seen a bunch roll through my shop and they seem to last just as long - if not longer - than simply choosing a specific load rating.

 

Maintenance - Considering the average owner of a new car keeps it for between 6 to 8 uears, that's well within the warranty period for the battery. Most car manufacturers warranty them for 8 to 10 years. Now, to your point, this does open up your concern about the used car market and I'm interested to see how it goes in the long term. I don't see why existing battery companies like Interstate and Optima wouldn't get into the replacement market eventually but in the short term is it a valid concern.

 

Charging costs - Obviously this will highly depend on where someone lives. I'm luckily in the sense that I have access to relatively cheap electricity in BC ($0.09/kwh) but a state like Hawaii is five times as much. And unlike certain places, our rates currently don't change throughout the year due to increased demand. Regardless, it's definitely a hell of a lot cheaper to charge up an EV than put fuel in my car's.

 

Weight - Truthfully, I don't think this is as much of a concern if people were a bit more concerned with what sort of vehicles they buy. A Tesla Model S weighs nearly the same amount as the most popular vehicle sold in the USA - the F150. The BMW iX weighs the same as an F250, also a very popular vehicle. Even here in Vancouver the roads and above/underground parkades are littered with F-series and their competitors equivalents. If weight wasn't a concern when lots are filled with full sized pickup trucks, then it doesn't really need to be addressed now. That said, I know vehicles like the Lightning do weigh more but I also feel like the public at large do need to be more conscious of what vehicles they buy and why they're buying it. Manufacturers getting around fuel economy regulations by making their trucks bigger and heavier are also partially at fault.

 

Fires do concern me, though. I became a bit of a meme with our local car club after I had a heavily modified car burn down unexpectedly (alternator regulator failed, causing massive failure to the battery, ironically) and I even had a second vehicle try to burn down after a shop left a rag on my exhaust manifold, though luckily at that point I started carrying a fire extinguisher in my daily and got it out before any real damage occurred. Regardless, fires are genuinely my one real fear in life now and I am concerned about how even EVs that appear to be put out after a fire can flare back up. I know that statistically EVs burn down at a much lower rate than their ICE equivalents, but the chain reaction that can occur when they do catch fire is concerning.

[randy123]

58 minutes ago, Karthanon said:

None of his points are incorrect,

There is hardly any maintenance on EV's 

Stop lying about EV's.