Haier hits Home Assistant plugin dev with takedown notice [Update, see 2nd page]

[Lunar River]

22 minutes ago, TheGreatestGazoo said:

"Everyone" is not obsessed with connected appliances - that is a very general statement. I think what you may mean is why is every manufacturer obsessed with creating and marketing connected appliances. And the answer to that is obvious - money. For example, try buying a new TV that does not connect. I.E. "dumb TV" - they don't exist because the manufactures can harvest your data and sell it or sell direct advertising to your TV.

That’s still not the point though, buy a smart TV and dont connect it to the internet, hell don’t even connect it to your network, i have 2 TVs and neither one has ever touched my network.

This entire thread is about Haier stopping people from using their stuff with Home Assistant. I dont know many people who are buying a smart TV and connecting it to home assistant.

 

TVs aren’t mentioned in the OPs quote from the article, hence my wording of “appliance”. A TV is not an appliance.

 

I haven’t gone applicance shopping for a number of years, but i doubt every appliance is now “smart” and internet connected. Even if they are, you still have the option of not connecting them to your network and just using them like “dumb” machines.

i imagine finding an appliance that REQUIRES internet access would be exxceedingly difficult, and unlikely to just stumble upon and buy without knowing. But since this thread is about people complaining that they can no longer use their appliances through home assistant, my statement applies to those people.

[TheGreatestGazoo]

15 minutes ago, Lunar River said:

That’s still not the point though, buy a smart TV and dont connect it to the internet, hell don’t even connect it to your network, i have 2 TVs and neither one has ever touched my network.

This entire thread is about Haier stopping people from using their stuff with Home Assistant. I dont know many people who are buying a smart TV and connecting it to home assistant.

 

TVs aren’t mentioned in the OPs quote from the article, hence my wording of “appliance”. A TV is not an appliance.

 

I haven’t gone applicance shopping for a number of years, but i doubt every appliance is now “smart” and internet connected. Even if they are, you still have the option of not connecting them to your network and just using them like “dumb” machines. But since this thread is about people complaining that they can no longer use their appliances through home assistant, my statement applies to those people.

That's right - we just bought a new LG stove that can be connected but we haven't connected it - it was in the middle of the lineup range (no pun intended). We can hear the bell just fine when the cooking is complete - we don't need a cellphone notification that my fries are finished. lol.

 

I casually looked up Haier's webpage but I can't see how much internet connected appliances would cost to use their app instead of Home Assistant. I.E. "the monthly charge"

 

Recently there was a similar uproar when Chamberlain cut off their API for similar home integration. Their claim was that 10% of the users (that connected in this way) were using 90% of the queries into their servers. I'm not super familiar with their API because I have their actual Homekit bridge to connect it to my home, however if the plug-in was poorly written, it could constantly ping their servers to check on the door's status. I can see Chamberlain's point but the home connected enthusiast community (of which I am one) is really vocal even if they are a small part of the overall audience. Since Chamberlain basically has a monopoly in N.A. for garage doors, there isn't much that can be done.

 

Buying an appliance and expecting it to forever connect to an unauthorized third party API service seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy of being disappointed.

[RejZoR]

3 hours ago, TheGreatestGazoo said:

That's right - we just bought a new LG stove that can be connected but we haven't connected it - it was in the middle of the lineup range (no pun intended). We can hear the bell just fine when the cooking is complete - we don't need a cellphone notification that my fries are finished. lol.

 

I casually looked up Haier's webpage but I can't see how much internet connected appliances would cost to use their app instead of Home Assistant. I.E. "the monthly charge"

 

Recently there was a similar uproar when Chamberlain cut off their API for similar home integration. Their claim was that 10% of the users (that connected in this way) were using 90% of the queries into their servers. I'm not super familiar with their API because I have their actual Homekit bridge to connect it to my home, however if the plug-in was poorly written, it could constantly ping their servers to check on the door's status. I can see Chamberlain's point but the home connected enthusiast community (of which I am one) is really vocal even if they are a small part of the overall audience. Since Chamberlain basically has a monopoly in N.A. for garage doors, there isn't much that can be done.

 

Buying an appliance and expecting it to forever connect to an unauthorized third party API service seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy of being disappointed.

I don't know about other countries, but consumer side of connected functions has always been free as far as their apps go (Haier/Candy/Hoover group has "HOn"). That has never been subscription based.

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

That has never been subscription based.

So far, but that is in no way any sort of guarantee that it will stay that way. And experience shows it rarely stays that way when the company has to foot the server bill without any sort of ROI.......

[Kisai]

9 hours ago, TheGreatestGazoo said:

"Everyone" is not obsessed with connected appliances - that is a very general statement. I think what you may mean is why is every manufacturer obsessed with creating and marketing connected appliances. And the answer to that is obvious - money. For example, try buying a new TV that does not connect. I.E. "dumb TV" - they don't exist because the manufactures can harvest your data and sell it or sell direct advertising to your TV.

 

They exist, they're called computer screens. Your typical computer screen is equal to a television of 20 years ago, because what has changed since then is the DTV transistion and the removal of legacy ports. So if anything a computer screen is an even dumber television, because it can't do anything without a box connected to it.

 

A smart television, as much as I hate them, has built in app support for things like Netflix which means that you can have "just the smart TV" and an internet connection.

 

[suicidalfranco]

17 hours ago, TheGreatestGazoo said:

try buying a new TV that does not connect

All I want is a TV that can't decode airwave transmissions. And finally stop paying the dumbest tax ever made

[wanderingfool2]

On 1/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, mr moose said:

They are well within their rights to protect their own IP and business model, if you don't like it then don't buy their products.  That's how a free market works. 

 

Now, if they were preventing you from writing your own software and hacking a device you purchased then that is a different story.

 

 

 

 

That is effectively what is happening though in terms of preventing software.

 

Honestly, communication protocols/API's should never be copyrightable/protected by IP.

 

It sort of goes back to the days when a company, I can't remember the name, reverse engineered the NES and started selling their own games/SDK (and Nintendo went after them and lost at the time).

 

If lets say Haier just decided to block people who use the 3rd party software from using the official software at the same time I think that would be fine, but IP shouldn't be used to restrict the ability to communicate altogether.

 

The general issue about the "don't buy their product" is that it's quickly becoming a state where you can't avoid purchasing a product like this; because they know you will have to essentially settle for their products these days.

 

Trying to lets say buying a TV; there isn't a requirement to list that the device requires connectivity; so as a result the last TV I purchased before it would let me do anything it required me to connect it to the internet.  I had no way of knowing prior to purchase.

 

 

 

I'm all for being able to protect IP, but honestly IP these days are so loosely defined and can be abused in so many ways  (Ultimately it's IP laws that will need to change because consumers won't really have too much of a choice)

[darknessblade]

UPDATE new response from Haier,

 

https://github.com/Andre0512/hon/issues/147#issuecomment-1902075829

 

 

Quote

Dear Andre,

I'm Gianpiero Morbello, serving as the Head of IOT and Ecosystem at Haier Europe.

 It's a pleasure to hear from you. We just received your email, and coincidentally, I was in the process of sending you a mail with a similar suggestion.

I want to emphasize Haier Europe's enthusiasm for supporting initiatives in the open world. Please note that our IOT vision revolves around a three-pillar strategy:

• achieving 100% connectivity for our appliances,
• opening our IOT infrastructure (we are aligned with Matter and extensively integrating third-party connections through APIs, and looking for any other opportunity it might be interesting),
• and the third pillar involves enhancing consumer value through the integration of various appliances and services, as an example we are pretty active in the energy management opening our platform to solution which are coming from energy providers.

Our strategy's cornerstone is the IOT platform and the HON app, introduced on AWS in 2020 with a focus on Privacy and Security by Design principles. We're delighted that our HON connected appliances and solutions have been well-received so the number of connected active consumers is growing day after day, with high level of satisfaction proven by the high rates we receive in the App stores.

Prioritizing the efficiency of HON functions when making AWS calls has been crucial, particularly in light of the notable increase in active users mentioned above. This focus enables us to effectively control costs.

Recently, we've observed a substantial increase in AWS calls attributed to your plugin, prompting the communication you previously received as standard protocol for our company, but as mentioned earlier, we are committed to transparency and keenly interested in collaborating with you not only to optimize your plugin in alignment with our cost control objectives, but also to cooperate in better serving your community.

I propose scheduling a call involving our IOT Technology department to address the issue comprehensively and respond to any questions both parties may have.

Hope to hear back from you soon.

Best regards

Gianpiero Morbello
Head of Brand & IOT
Haier Europe

 

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, darknessblade said:

UPDATE new response from Haier,

 

https://github.com/Andre0512/hon/issues/147#issuecomment-1902075829

That sounds pretty reasonable if you ask me.

I mean, it does feel like they shoehorned in some marketing fluff, but overall it seems reasonable to say that the plugin might have put a considerable load on their servers, and that's why they even noticed it to begin with (and also claimed financial damages). Since Haier has to pay Amazon every time someone calls their APIs, an unoptimized plugin could legitimately cause financial damage. Them reaching out now and offering to help with the development in a way that would benefit everyone sounds like a great development.

 

Chances are they are reaching out in this way because of the backlash, but even if that's the case the outcome is still good, so we should be happy.

It always saddens me that some people (most in the Github thread seems reasonable but some aren't) seem more interested in causing harm than doing good. For example, some comments don't even seem interested in fixing the issue and going forward. They just want revenge and their goal is to cause damage. I feel like those people are the type who go around with a lot of pent-up anger and feel some need to have someone to direct the anger towards at all times. That's a pretty sad and miserable state of mind to have.

 

I often think that how a company handles a mistake/fuckup/bad behavior matters a lot, and in this case I think it's good that Haier explained why they reacted the way they did, and is now offering help that will benefit everyone. I would have liked if they had done that from the get-go, and I hope they will do that moving forward, but I am still satisfied with this outcome. 

[mr moose]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:36 AM, Avocado Diaboli said:

A smart appliance doesn't require an internet connection to be useful to you within your own network. Even just having a closed off local network that doesn't connect to the wider internet is useful for scheduling things through automation.

 

Yeah, we know you love to say that every time a corporation tries to pull anti-consumer bullshit. "Just go to the next company that doesn't fuck you over" is basically your only mode. And it ignores that no such companies exist anymore. How's that free market working out for ya?

Anti consumer does not mean what you think it does.  If you want a product you can use 3rd party software with then create your own 3rd party software.   All they have done is stop people from publishing software that infringes their IP, they have not stopped you from hacking your own device and using your own software.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 7:44 AM, wanderingfool2 said:

That is effectively what is happening though in terms of preventing software.

They are not preventing the software, they are just stopping people form publishing it.  you can still create and use your own software exclusively on your device.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 7:44 AM, wanderingfool2 said:

Honestly, communication protocols/API's should never be copyrightable/protected by IP.

 

It sort of goes back to the days when a company, I can't remember the name, reverse engineered the NES and started selling their own games/SDK (and Nintendo went after them and lost at the time).

 

If lets say Haier just decided to block people who use the 3rd party software from using the official software at the same time I think that would be fine, but IP shouldn't be used to restrict the ability to communicate altogether.

 

The general issue about the "don't buy their product" is that it's quickly becoming a state where you can't avoid purchasing a product like this; because they know you will have to essentially settle for their products these days.

 

Trying to lets say buying a TV; there isn't a requirement to list that the device requires connectivity; so as a result the last TV I purchased before it would let me do anything it required me to connect it to the internet.  I had no way of knowing prior to purchase.

 

 

 

I'm all for being able to protect IP, but honestly IP these days are so loosely defined and can be abused in so many ways  (Ultimately it's IP laws that will need to change because consumers won't really have too much of a choice)

 

They are just stopping people from releasing free software that uses their own IP and has the potential to reduce sales.   It's not like they are holding your washing machine to ransom over after sales service subscriptions.

[Needfuldoer]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:50 PM, Lunar River said:

What automation?

 

All appliances that I can think of require some kind of human input.

The only "smart appliance" feature I want is a notification on my phone when a cycle finishes.

 

My washer and dryer have buzzers, but I can't hear them from the second floor because they're in the basement. I could probably retrofit something by tapping into the 120v buzzer contacts.

 

The dishwasher has its own built-in timer, so I set it so the dishes will be finished by the time I get home from work (without sitting around with the door closed for too long).

 

The oven timer beeps when it's time to of out hot eat the food, but I usually just use a timer on my phone because I carry it around with me.

[mr moose]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:40 AM, LAwLz said:

That sounds pretty reasonable if you ask me.

I mean, it does feel like they shoehorned in some marketing fluff, but overall it seems reasonable to say that the plugin might have put a considerable load on their servers, and that's why they even noticed it to begin with (and also claimed financial damages). Since Haier has to pay Amazon every time someone calls their APIs, an unoptimized plugin could legitimately cause financial damage. Them reaching out now and offering to help with the development in a way that would benefit everyone sounds like a great development.

 

Chances are they are reaching out in this way because of the backlash, but even if that's the case the outcome is still good, so we should be happy.

It always saddens me that some people (most in the Github thread seems reasonable but some aren't) seem more interested in causing harm than doing good. For example, some comments don't even seem interested in fixing the issue and going forward. They just want revenge and their goal is to cause damage. I feel like those people are the type who go around with a lot of pent-up anger and feel some need to have someone to direct the anger towards at all times. That's a pretty sad and miserable state of mind to have.

 

I often think that how a company handles a mistake/fuckup/bad behavior matters a lot, and in this case I think it's good that Haier explained why they reacted the way they did, and is now offering help that will benefit everyone. I would have liked if they had done that from the get-go, and I hope they will do that moving forward, but I am still satisfied with this outcome. 

(I didn't see your post when I posted my last one, it seems this is more a storm in a tea cup than a full on case of consumer rape.