Cybertruck owners won't be able to sell their car

[Arika]

48 minutes ago, Lurking said:

They already know the prices and options of the 2027 model?

Its almost like there is no singular answer and is going to be entirely different depending on make and model. It’s all a matter of whats in the contract.

some manufacturers may honour the price at signing of the contract, others might say the price could go up, but have it capped at a certain percentage depending on wait time.

 

you’re acting like something that is very real and happening literally right now is an impossibility.

[Lurking]

2 hours ago, Arika said:

Its almost like there is no singular answer and is going to be entirely different depending on make and model. It’s all a matter of whats in the contract.

some manufacturers may honour the price at signing of the contract, others might say the price could go up, but have it capped at a certain percentage depending on wait time.

 

you’re acting like something that is very real and happening literally right now is an impossibility.

I know some models have a few months wait time and the deposits. Especially popular models. But they don't have 3 years actually legally binding sold on advance. Most of those wait-list people will cancel when they need a new car or fall in love with another car. And consequently the ones not cancelling, will get their car much sooner.

 

Same will happen with the cybertruck. Maybe a million people signed up when it was promised 4 years ago. But now they see and hate it, or meanwhile got different toys, or ran out of $, or whatever, and only 100K of the pre-orders will become actual sales. In the end, only actual sales bring money. 

 

I still think Musk is a genius. But I'm convinced many of his past escapades (Twitter, general derangements and political s$$t) will make it really hard to recruit more fanboys. 

 

 

[da na]

What a blow to the 14 people who bought one

[starsmine]

Anti-scalper and it works, its common with super cars, and should be more common down the line.
like people scalp Ford Broncos, Toyota GR corollas, or land cruisers or for a while Hyundai palisades.

If you want to sell it inside a year, sell it back to tesla as if you leased it. The number of people who legit want to sell their new car on the private market inside the first year vs scaplers is sub 10%. 

[Spotty]

8 hours ago, dilpickle said:

Is this really a mass produced car? Seems more like a prototype being sold to beta testers.

Tesla is projecting 125,000 Cybertrucks manufactured in the first year and is expecting to increase production up to 250,000 per year. That seems mass produced to me.

 

Though, when I went to grab an article that quoted those 125k estimates I noticed it also said that there's apparently 1 million people who have reserved a Cybertruck which is way more than I would have ever expected.

 

Quote

The company has said it had the capacity to make more than 125,000 Cybertrucks annually, with Musk adding there was the potential for that to lift to 250,000 in 2025.

More than 1 million people had reserved the truck, he said, which involves placing a small deposit.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-raises-cybertruck-production-concerns-reveals-delivery-date-2023-10-19/

[SpaceGhostC2C]

21 hours ago, Kilrah said:

If as it seems they're going to have a hard time meeting demand it's just a measure against scalpers, something we wished we had in our field pretty recently...

... and there's a reason we didn't (not all of us wished for such monstrosity, by the way). It's the sort of "solution" that, besides it effectiveness, oversteps property boundaries and requires too much "the end justifies the means" logic, considering we're not even discussing the supply of an unreplaceable basic need product, but just a fad over a specific brand of a specific type of vehicle, which isn't either essential nor short of functional substitutes.

 

21 hours ago, Kilrah said:

Frankly no, if there was reasonable trust that this allowed me to actually get one at the price it's supposed to cost instead of either not finding one or for double the price I'd welcome it.

It won't. A clause in a contract won't change how many units are actually manufactured, which is the first-order limitation to your ability to "actually get one".

 

16 hours ago, BrandonLatzig said:

I mean, if you buy the truck, and agree to the contract (thus allowing the sale to go through)
You are legally binded to it for the time period

Maybe. I wonder what would happen if challenged in court. Not all clauses in EULA type "contracts" are enforceable or even legal. Not sure where this lands. It may depend on the jurisdiction, like the case against Steam over re-selling games.

[starsmine]

 

35 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Maybe. I wonder what would happen if challenged in court. Not all clauses in EULA type "contracts" are enforceable or even legal. Not sure where this lands. It may depend on the jurisdiction, like the case against Steam over re-selling games.

Doubt it since this is not an uncommon clause at all and has been enforced regularly in courts

[Monkey Dust]

7 hours ago, Spotty said:

Tesla is projecting 125,000 Cybertrucks manufactured in the first year and is expecting to increase production up to 250,000 per year. That seems mass produced to me.

But Tesla, or I guess more specifically Musk, has a long inglorious history of exaggeration and flat out lying.

7 hours ago, Spotty said:

Though, when I went to grab an article that quoted those 125k estimates I noticed it also said that there's apparently 1 million people who have reserved a Cybertruck which is way more than I would have ever expected.

None of the orders taken from outside North America will ever be fulfilled, I'm not sure what percentage of the 1 million that is?

[Lurking]

15 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

But Tesla, or I guess more specifically Musk, has a long inglorious history of exaggeration and flat out lying.

None of the orders taken from outside North America will ever be fulfilled, I'm not sure what percentage of the 1 million that is?

Tesla often is late. But once they get going, they usually meet or exceed what they promise. But in case of the Cybertruck, demand may not be enough to produce 250K units a year 

 

Not sure they sell it outside NA for the time being. In the rest of the World trucks aren't a real thing outside actual commercial use. 

 

The actual Tesla I'm waiting for and that will sell in large numbers is that famed $25 K Tesla. I hope they use a different design team for that ..

[Monkey Dust]

Just now, Lurking said:

Tesla often is late. But once they get going, they usually meet or exceed what they promise. But in case of the Cybertruck, demand may not be enough to produce 250K units a year 

 

Not sure they sell it outside NA for the time being. In the rest of the World trucks aren't a real thing outside actual commercial use. 

 

The actual Tesla I'm waiting for and that will sell in large numbers is that famed $25 K Tesla. I hope they use a different design team for that ..

Pedestrian safety regulation will prevent it being sold in many markets. Trucks will never be great for ped safety, but in Europe, and I also imagine markets like Japan, you at least have to try with no sharp edges and plastic bumpers.

[BrandonLatzig]

7 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Maybe. I wonder what would happen if challenged in court. Not all clauses in EULA type "contracts" are enforceable or even legal. Not sure where this lands. It may depend on the jurisdiction, like the case against Steam over re-selling games.

given what happened to John Cena, I think it would be in fact forceable. I mean for most of us it doesn't matter, the only people who would get these trucks are rich people who probably could afford to fight it in court

[ToboRobot]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:24 AM, Spotty said:

Want to sell your Cybertruck? You better ask Tesla for permission first or risk being sued.

 

Tesla's Motor Vehicle Order Agreement has a section that prohibits Cybertruck owners from selling their vehicle within the first 12 months of ownership without receiving approval from Tesla. Anybody wishing to sell their car within the twelve month period must receive permission from Tesla to sell the car and give Tesla the opportunity to purchase the car from them, and only if Tesla doesn't want to buy it and gives the owner permission to sell it can the seller sell the car to a third party. If you try to sell the cybertruck without Tesla's approval they will sue you for $50,000 or the value of the car (whichever is higher) and refuse to sell you any cars in the future.

 

 

 

This seems ridiculous to me. Car manufacturers should have no control over what owners do with their car after they've purchased them.

This could really screw over people who buy on credit who may want to sell due to financial reasons. People could end up trapped in loans they can't repay unable to sell the car to pay off the loan or forced to sell the cybertruck back to Tesla at a lower price than what they could have got in the open market.

 

Convince me why Tesla should be able to control the second hand market for their vehicles.

 

Some articles about it:

https://electrek.co/2023/11/11/tesla-will-sue-you-if-you-try-to-flip-your-low-vin-cybertruck/

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-buyers-no-resale-policy/

Tesla's order agreement: https://www.tesla.com/configurator/api/v3/terms?locale=en_US&model=m3&saleType=Sale

Lots of auto manufactures have done similar things before to prevent flipping.

 

https://www.slashgear.com/1016130/the-reason-why-ferrari-wont-let-you-sell-your-newly-purchased-car/

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a21622751/the-flip-that-flopped-john-cena-and-ford-settle-gt-resale-lawsuit/

Remember when we all wanted GPUs and wanted AMD and nVidia to prevent scalers from flipping graphics cards?  

 

[Mark Kaine]

On 11/12/2023 at 1:04 PM, Kilrah said:

My understanding is it's a temporary measure while supply is contstrained which makes sense to prevent scalping, not a permanent "we're gonna choose what you can do". 

The problem with that is it sets a really bad precedence..

 as you said you don't know if its just "temporary" or what other ideas they get to not allow reselling...

 

A manufacturer should in fact never be allowed to do this, im honestly perplexed how this is even legal?  (i doubt it is...)

 

the gpu shortage may seem like a good gatcha, but it really isn't,  that was very specific unfortunate circumstances and it wasn't anything people actually needed to go on with their daily life either,  not like food or even toilet paper  

PLUS it was also vastly over exaggerated on the internet,  i had like z e r o issues buying my 3070 during the peak of the so called "shortage", for 50 euros over msrp, but hey that was actually still cheap in comparison to previous gens (at least here in Germany,  or how i call it, Scalper's paradise...)

 

i had several to choose from, and this was the cheapest,  which was funny, cause it's white, and those are typically the most expensive ones.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

17 minutes ago, BrandonLatzig said:

given what happened to John Cena, I think it would be in fact forceable.

Yes, it might. He settled out of court, though, so there was no ruling. And rulings may differ by jurisdiction (for example, the case that Valve lost in France may have no legs in the US).

[Mark Kaine]

13 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Lots of auto manufactures have done similar things before to prevent flipping

i mean, the Ferrari story for example sounds a lot more clear cut "not allowed to sell during the *first* year" ... so its not directly forbidden forever at least, plus the legality of that is still questionable... the only thing they have showing as a "punishment" is Ferrari taking a Ferrari dealer ship from some dude... guess what, they can do that... at any time... and its *interesting* they chose to go that route also (actually hilarious now that i think about it)

 

Several other "examples" are Ferrari refusing to sell to certain people,  again,  they can do that, perfectly legal, its just not the same thing at all lol, shady journalism at work *again*...

 

So while yes, this happened, the legality is a big question mark even there.  

[BrandonLatzig]

1 hour ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

(for example, the case that Valve lost in France may have no legs in the US).

was this the case that i keep hearing on the radio?
Ill be honest, even if valve did something bad, I dont trust those class action suits, It feels like its more so a money gathering thing for lawyers and nothing else some times

[Lurking]

5 minutes ago, BrandonLatzig said:

was this the case that i keep hearing on the radio?

No one here can know what you hear on the radio or what the voices in your head say

[dilpickle]

12 hours ago, Spotty said:

Tesla is projecting 125,000 Cybertrucks manufactured in the first year and is expecting to increase production up to 250,000 per year. That seems mass produced to me.

 

Though, when I went to grab an article that quoted those 125k estimates I noticed it also said that there's apparently 1 million people who have reserved a Cybertruck which is way more than I would have ever expected.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-raises-cybertruck-production-concerns-reveals-delivery-date-2023-10-19/

Those are projections.

 

The only real number I could find is that they've made 100 units by August at a rate of 5 to 10 per day. Not in the same universe as what they are promising.

 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-production-100-units/

https://www.torquenews.com/11826/breaking-tesla-delivers-over-100-cybertrucks-service-centers-across-us-it-readies-1st-its

[HenrySalayne]

1 minute ago, dilpickle said:

Those are projections.

 

The only real number I could find is that they've made 100 units by August at a rate of 5 to 10 per day. Not in the same universe as what they are promising.

Maybe they can reduce the poly count a little bit further to speed up production.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, BrandonLatzig said:

was this the case that i keep hearing on the radio?

How would I know?

 

My reference is to Valve getting sued in France over blocking the sale of used games. I don't think it was a class action suit. Valve has appealed to a higher court since.

 

Quick, unvetted source for further reference:

https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law

 

Edit: LTT Forum post on that case:

 

[Lurking]

48 minutes ago, dilpickle said:

Those are projections.

 

The only real number I could find is that they've made 100 units by August at a rate of 5 to 10 per day. Not in the same universe as what they are promising.

 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-production-100-units/

https://www.torquenews.com/11826/breaking-tesla-delivers-over-100-cybertrucks-service-centers-across-us-it-readies-1st-its

That is exactly the same way any other mainstream car production starts. Even more an all new type of vehicle and new production facility. 

 

Even a proven Corolla production will start with very few cars and the few first production runs will be scrap till they figured everything out and get to the point where the assembly line spits out a quality car every 2 minutes.

 

And judging by past Tesla fit and finish issues, they should take even extra time. Trust me, it is better to wait a few months than to get the very first rushed through cybertruck.

[Mark Kaine]

10 hours ago, BrandonLatzig said:

was this the case that i keep hearing on the radio?
Ill be honest, even if valve did something bad, I dont trust those class action suits, It feels like its more so a money gathering thing for lawyers and nothing else some times

i doubt it was a class action suit... usually we don't do this here in europe...

 

what we do though is sue the hell out of some bad actors until the laws get changed or the bad actors disappear! 

 

edit:

A class action, mass action[1] or group action[2] is a civil law action that not only decides on the claims of the plaintiffs, but whose legal force also extends to those persons who are affected by the facts in dispute in the same way as the plaintiffs – regardless of whether they have sued themselves.[3] The class action lawsuit is widespread in the USA and is called class action there (Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Title 28 United States Code Appendix Rule 23). They do not exist in this form in Germany and Switzerland. The class action should not be confused with the so-called subjective accumulation of lawsuits, which is also provided for in German procedural law, in which several plaintiffs or several defendants appear in their own name in the same process

 

... 

 

so while we do not have a "Sammelklage" we still know what it is...! And as hinted at we do have similar procedures,  it's just really, really,  rare.

 

it would also make zero sense to have a "class action suit" against Valve, for what reason?  No, their "crime" is acting straight up unlawful in several instances, and they either need to get punished hard financially, with jailtime or eventually get their shop closed for good...

 

 

 

[BrandonLatzig]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

it would also make zero sense to have a "class action suit" against Valve, for what reason?  No, their "crime" is acting straight up unlawful in several instances, and they either need to get punished hard financially, with jailtime or eventually get their shop closed for good...

From what I have gathered, someone brought a case against them for breaking a federal anti trust law, and I think valve just decided to settle via mass atribation? 

[Mark Kaine]

6 minutes ago, BrandonLatzig said:

From what I have gathered, someone brought a case against them for breaking a federal anti trust law, and I think valve just decided to settle via mass atribation? 

hmm, im unfamiliar with that case.

[undergroundbeef]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:24 AM, Spotty said:

Convince me why Tesla should be able to control the second hand market for their vehicles.

If they released right after the first announcement, I could understand it. There was a lot of demand and likely short supply and the beginning of the production run. They would want the trucks to go to people who will use them and not a bunch of people looking to flip them. The number of people who buy up first runs, just to turn around and sell them at inflated prices, drives me insane. With the start of production, capacity will be limited, so this is one answer, and I assume it will go away once they catch up on orders. Companies that artificially limit supply, leaving money on the table for the company, and making stuff hard to get for for people who actually want to use them... those companies are the worst (Nike for example). 

 

The question I have is what the true demand is in 2023. A lot has changed since the Cybertruck was announced. Are the people who were excited still excited, or did they move on and buy a Rivian, Hummer, or Lightning? If the demand is gone, this move seems dumb, but otherwise, I get it.

 

I like it when everyone has to wait in line on a level playing field, instead of people who can afford to drop 5x the price to get it early jumping the line. This of course assumes the goal is for supply to meet demand, which should be the goal of any mass market business.