Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Darth Xaim]

1 hour ago, IKWMTY said:

I don't see any evidence of this. Can you be specific?

 

Quote

 

https://youtu.be/0cTpTMl8kFY?si=1HtU5uVX7Mug507h&t=797

 

around timestamp 13:15.

 

Billet said that LMG can KEEP the product, actually meaning it was ON LOAN.

 

 

 

[Drazil100]

4 hours ago, IKWMTY said:

It's not clear from your post what you thought you were lead to believe or how you think it's a very different story.

 

I don't think any of the following is up for debate. Feel free to correct

• Prior to 06/24/23 - Billet Labs agrees to send block + 3090 Ti for review/testing/whatever. No details about the agreement have been shared other than Billet said LMG could keep the block.
• 06/24/23 - LMG Billet Labs video 
• 06/28/23 - Billet Labs requests block back
• 06/30/23 - LMG says they can send the block back with the 3090 Ti
• 07/06/23 - LMG says they will send block and 3090 Ti back to Billet
• 07/12/23 - LMG says that the block and 3090 Ti will be sent next week
• 07/30/23 - LMG sells the block at LTX auction
• 08/10/23 - LMG notifies Billet that the block has been sold
  • Billet asks for reimbursement
  • LMG (Colton) responds but does not include Billet on email
• 08/14/23 - First GN video
• 08/14/23 - Linus emails Billet ~3 hours after GN video offering reimbursement

I do not recall the part of the story from the GN video where they had originally said LMG could keep the block, maybe that's on me but it could have been emphasized a bit stronger. Still all of the events that Steve covered in that initial video in regards to the auctioning of the cooler were from the perspective of billet labs who would have had just as much "Motive & Opportunity to Cover-up, Mislead, or Misrepresent" as LMG had.

While ultimately LMG was in the wrong on this one regardless of whether they had shared their perspective or not, Steve should have gotten Linus's side of this story rather than blindly trusting Billet to tell the whole truth. Everything else in Steves video including the commentary on Linus's refusal to retest the Billet Labs cooler however is based on objective facts and existing statements and does not require letting Linus know ahead of time.

[Erioch]

6 hours ago, NubCak said:

It doesn't even matter...

It actually does.  A lot.

[jos]

4 hours ago, IKWMTY said:

This is all pointless as LMG told Billet at least three (3) times that they would be sending it back.

 

There is no evidence that Linus said, "Fuck Billet Labs, let's sell their prototype" and GN didn't state or imply any such thing.

 

The only people trying to assign motives without facts (on either the GN or LMG side) are morons.

I am no expert maybe you can do research on it. If you are owner of a product and it is legal for you to transfer ownership of the said product. If you send a package to another party without any contract, you are transferring the ownership of said item to the recieving party. If there was such a contract I think there would be a law suit now instead of this drama.

[Wakoko]

I still remember how this so called tech genius badly reviews lg v30. Putang ina!

[Vilacom]

29 minutes ago, jos said:

I am no expert maybe you can do research on it. If you are owner of a product and it is legal for you to transfer ownership of the said product. If you send a package to another party without any contract, you are transferring the ownership of said item to the recieving party. If there was such a contract I think there would be a law suit now instead of this drama.

This is correct, I'm both surprised and not terribly surprised that there wasn't an ironclad contract in place for this kind of video.  If there was not a contract stipulating that LTT was going to make a review video and keep the block but Billet was maintaining ownership(ie a long term loan) or clearly saying that the block could not be sold without direct approval from Billet then when Billet sent the block as a review sample with the casual language of something akin to "feel free to keep it" would indicate a transfer of ownership, just like if I were to send someone a camera in the mail with no real documentation, no quid pro quo, no consideration.  That block LEGALLY SPEAKING was LTT's to do with whatever they chose.  If EK came and said they would buy it cause they were interested in looking at it that would have been completely legally fine. 

The screwing up communications, all LTT's fuck up and they need to figure that out, but the fact is this mostly is going to come down as a learning experience for Billet on the importance of contracts even when its something you're really excited for and LTT on some kind of system for clearly indicating products that are options for auctions/christmas part prizes, etc and stuff that needs to be held for future use or sent back to the company.  $2000 is a lot of money for an individual looking to build a PC or something, its really not anything for a company that's looking to move into production on a product and frankly the publicity they've gotten from this whole situation has likely done more for them than any good review of an $800 water block could have done.   

[McCarthy]

368 pages.

 

Compulsions are repetitive behaviors or mental acts that a person feels driven to perform in response to an obsession. The behaviors typically prevent or reduce a person's distress related to an obsession temporarily, and they are then more likely to do the same in the future, again.

 

Learn to let go. Especially when it's not even your business. Pun intended.

[Cooldoe]

15 minutes ago, Vilacom said:

This is correct, I'm both surprised and not terribly surprised that there wasn't an ironclad contract in place for this kind of video.  If there was not a contract stipulating that LTT was going to make a review video and keep the block but Billet was maintaining ownership(ie a long term loan) or clearly saying that the block could not be sold without direct approval from Billet then when Billet sent the block as a review sample with the casual language of something akin to "feel free to keep it" would indicate a transfer of ownership, just like if I were to send someone a camera in the mail with no real documentation, no quid pro quo, no consideration.  That block LEGALLY SPEAKING was LTT's to do with whatever they chose.  If EK came and said they would buy it cause they were interested in looking at it that would have been completely legally fine. 

The screwing up communications, all LTT's fuck up and they need to figure that out, but the fact is this mostly is going to come down as a learning experience for Billet on the importance of contracts even when its something you're really excited for and LTT on some kind of system for clearly indicating products that are options for auctions/christmas part prizes, etc and stuff that needs to be held for future use or sent back to the company.  $2000 is a lot of money for an individual looking to build a PC or something, its really not anything for a company that's looking to move into production on a product and frankly the publicity they've gotten from this whole situation has likely done more for them than any good review of an $800 water block could have done.   

I don't think there is even a clean agreement on how LMG will review billet product.

 

Not really clear here is LMG request Billet product for review or Billet offer LMG product to be showcased.

Also not sure if Billet send the product before or after LMG agree to review it.

 

Based on the fact that billet is not an established player in computer part I tend to believe that Billet is the one requesting LMG to showcase their product in their video.

What I am not clear is does Billet send it before or after LMG agree to showcase it.

Based on the value of the product, normally Billet should not send the product before LMG agree to showcase it but they can also choose to send it in hoping that LMG would showcase their product just like many other small brand that send product to LMG. There are some video when LMG reviewed product that was send to them without them reaching out to get product.

Normally the people sending the product in that case not expecting the product back as send it in hope LMG showcase it and create a boost for them. But normally the product is low cost product.

 

One thing for sure is the video is not a sponsored review so Billet did not pay LMG for their video so Billet does not have any right to control LMG content.

[EpochMedia]

It was clear this was part of the LMG MO - either someone found Billet or Billet reached out with an incredibly niche product that absolutely fit the bill (no word play intended) for good content and no matter which way the contact was initiated, I’m sure Billet thought the worst case scenario would have been that their company would at least get their name out there. 
 

Linus claims (and it certainly seems on display here) that they don’t do non sponsored fluff pieces. I imagine no matter what the writer came up with, Linus’ pre-conceived notion of what the product was and how much it cost already led to the logical conclusion that the product was stupid (Linus’ opinion, not mine). 
 

Did LMG have a responsibility to demonstrate the product in the proper context? That’s really the only question here in my mind. Not whatever happened with it after, not Linus’ WAN show comments about his own justification for it how the video went down - my guess is Linus went off script for the purposes of entertainment featuring a product that his mind was already made up on. 
 

If there was no talk or agreement reached about “conditions” for the featuring of the block (or worse, LMG made Billet sign anything saying that all opinions would be their own yadda yadda), then it’s hard to say if they had an ethical responsibility to show it off correctly. I think an argument could be made that maybe he shouldn’t have talked so much trash about it while doing so, for sure. 

[TheOtherJohn]

19 hours ago, DeerDK said:

Isn't another definition of professional Someone who does it as their Profession, opposed to an amateur who does it as a hobby? 

 

See definition 2 in the link. 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/professional_2

 

Also, by your own example "Independent from source of income". I'm pretty sure GN is their main source of income. 

 

profession

/prəˈfɛʃn/

noun

noun: profession; plural noun: professions

1. 1.

   a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

   "his chosen profession of teaching"

Are you even trying? Like seriously, if you've passed elementary school you should know this stuff.

Imagine using the word your defining as a an example in its definition "definition of professional Someone who does it as their Profession"

Define: Rock

               *A rock like object

You've killed me, i literally cant reply to anyone else today. I'm done
 

 

 

 

[Cooldoe]

9 minutes ago, EpochMedia said:

It was clear this was part of the LMG MO - either someone found Billet or Billet reached out with an incredibly niche product that absolutely fit the bill (no word play intended) for good content and no matter which way the contact was initiated, I’m sure Billet thought the worst case scenario would have been that their company would at least get their name out there. 
 

Linus claims (and it certainly seems on display here) that they don’t do non sponsored fluff pieces. I imagine no matter what the writer came up with, Linus’ pre-conceived notion of what the product was and how much it cost already led to the logical conclusion that the product was stupid (Linus’ opinion, not mine). 
 

Did LMG have a responsibility to demonstrate the product in the proper context? That’s really the only question here in my mind. Not whatever happened with it after, not Linus’ WAN show comments about his own justification for it how the video went down - my guess is Linus went off script for the purposes of entertainment featuring a product that his mind was already made up on. 
 

If there was no talk or agreement reached about “conditions” for the featuring of the block (or worse, LMG made Billet sign anything saying that all opinions would be their own yadda yadda), then it’s hard to say if they had an ethical responsibility to show it off correctly. I think an argument could be made that maybe he shouldn’t have talked so much trash about it while doing so, for sure. 

Yes I agree with you.

 

They have no obligation to Billet on the review.

LMG obligation is to their viewer.

 

It is clearly a misstep by Linus for not making another Video with 4090 as it would satisfy the viewer and generate revenue for them

Although it would also be beneficial for Billet as it would showcase their product again.

[EpochMedia]

13 minutes ago, Cooldoe said:

Yes I agree with you.

 

They have no obligation to Billet on the review.

LMG obligation is to their viewer.

 

It is clearly a misstep by Linus for not making another Video with 4090 as it would satisfy the viewer and generate revenue for them

Although it would also be beneficial for Billet as it would showcase their product again.

I think Linus’ argument (valid or not) is that the conclusion is forgone in the first video. 
 

I don’t even pretend to understand the economics of if a second video’s revenue would have outweighed the production costs, but certainly the cost of acquiring the proper GPU would likely have been negligible. 
 

This wasn’t a “review” of the product. At best you could call it a showcase and Linus was up front and has continuously pointed out that his opinion is that no one should buy the product. Is it an opinion formed in error? I think the position is that even if the product worked perfectly and lowered your GPU temps some nearly impossible level (let’s say for the sake of argument, left your GPU at 20c under load) that the price and the effort required to implement the solution was still absurd. 
 

I would say anecdotally as someone who has shamefully paid 2080 Ti, 3080 Ti and 4090 (all with AiO) prices that I see the logic here - GPU cooling isn’t as dire as it used to be, even with the insane new power draw and clock speeds. My 4090 runs 65-70c under max loads and that is a far cry from needing to be lowered by any significant amount. 

[DeerDK]

23 minutes ago, TheOtherJohn said:

 

profession

/prəˈfɛʃn/

 

noun

noun: profession; plural noun: professions

1. 1.

   a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

   "his chosen profession of teaching"

Are you even trying? Like seriously, if you've passed elementary school you should know this stuff.

Imagine using the word your defining as a an example in its definition "definition of professional Someone who does it as their Profession"

Define: Rock

               *A rock like object

You've killed me, i literally cant reply to anyone else today. I'm done
 

 

 

 

I love how you simply choose to ignore the rest that does not fit your narrative 

[Cooldoe]

2 minutes ago, EpochMedia said:

I think Linus’ argument (valid or not) is that the conclusion is forgone in the first video. 
 

I don’t even pretend to understand the economics of if a second video’s revenue would have outweighed the production costs, but certainly the cost of acquiring the proper GPU would likely have been negligible. 
 

This wasn’t a “review” of the product. At best you could call it a showcase and Linus was up front and has continuously pointed out that his opinion is that no one should buy the product. Is it an opinion formed in error? I think the position is that even if the product worked perfectly and lowered your GPU temps some nearly impossible level (let’s say for the sake of argument, left your GPU at 20c under load) that the price and the effort required to implement the solution was still absurd. 
 

I would say anecdotally as someone who has shamefully paid 2080 Ti, 3080 Ti and 4090 (all with AiO) prices that I see the logic here - GPU cooling isn’t as dire as it used to be, even with the insane new power draw and clock speeds. My 4090 runs 65-70c under max loads and that is a far cry from needing to be lowered by any significant amount. 

Yes. And I agree with Linus that the product does not make sense.

And yes you are correct that is more of a showcase instead of a full review.

It is similar to other product showcase that he did.

 

I think he also have a concern about a products going on sale for $800 that cost $2000 to make.

[TheOtherJohn]

27 minutes ago, DeerDK said:

I love how you simply choose to ignore the rest that does not fit your narrative 

No his occupation, his profession is "YouTuber". Your the one saying hes a Journalist, burden of proof is on you buddy. You need to prove hes a Professional Journalist first, because hes not and shouldn't be held to those standards. Same with Linus, he might employ professionals who have qualifications in journalism but he isn't one himself; so i don't hold him to as higher standards either.

So stop stalling and actually have a conversation for once.

[DeerDK]

11 minutes ago, TheOtherJohn said:

No his occupation, his profession is "YouTuber". Your the one saying hes a Journalist, burden of proof is on you buddy. You need to prove hes a Professional Journalist first, because hes not and shouldn't be held to those standards. Same with Linus, he might employ professionals who have qualifications in journalism but he isn't one himself; so i don't hold him to as higher standards either.

So stop stalling and actually have a conversation for once.

What does he use his YouTube channel for? 

What will you classify his deep dives as? 

[Cooldoe]

2 minutes ago, TheOtherJohn said:

No his occupation, his profession is "YouTuber". Your the one saying hes a Journalist, burden of proof is on you buddy. You need to prove hes a Professional Journalist first, because hes not and shouldn't be held to those standards. Same with Linus, he might employ professionals who have qualifications in journalism but he isn't one himself; so i don't hold him to as higher standards either.

So stop stalling and actually have a conversation for once.

And yet you agree with Steve assertions that Linus need to be hold with higher standards?

 

The gripe for he is not only about the journalist standard but Steve fail to even follow his own standard that he apply to Linus.

 

If he care so much about accuracy he should have reach out the other side for their side of the story.

If he care so much about accuracy he would properly explain about gary credential instead of reducing him to Asus lackey.

If Steve care so much about ethic he should know about the ethic about getting both side of the story. In which he choose not to.

If Steve care about Linus bias in investing in Framework then he should not review Dell as he have worked there and also he should disclose all his stock portfolio.

 

The fact of the matter is Steve is being hypocrite in the video.

 

His point about the mistake LMG make is valid

His point about Billet is valid but he should reach out to hear the other side of the story

 

His point about framework is not valid as Linus have properly declare his investment. The only reason Linus attacked on this is because Linus is honest about his investment. What do we know about Steve investment portfolio?

 

Steve point about Asus is questionable. I do agree that there are preference for ASUS in sponsor review but Steve did not bring this as proof instead he is insinuating bias due to Gary had experience in Asus. Ian point is valid here, do you think LMG does not have sponsor or connection to ASUS before?

This look like more of a bias from Steve because Linus does not follow him to condemn Asus.

 

[mMontana]

I'd fear that possible LTT Fedaykin and possible trolls on hire are willing to transform the discussion to a mess. Everything written before this sentence pure personal hypothesis.

 

Discussion about this topics on how the content was delivered from LTT and other channels IMHO is very important to help steer to a better product the whole LMG production. Controversies on mistakes made, until a gear change on the product until kept civil, respectful are a fundamental piece for remember all the C-Suite why the things need to be a bit adjusted. And I don't want to give any suggestion on how, it's not my job.

 

Allowing trolls and fierce oppositors quarreling on both key opinions can transform this topic into a reason for the moderation to close it and shut abruptly down any other resurgent one with a "we said stop"... sadly motivated.

 

Personally I don't think that derail this topic to fight and mud is useful, neither for LMG and the community. 

 

Oh: by the way: removing the topic from the activity stream is suspiciosly a strange technical issue.

[Alex T88]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJohn said:

profession

/prəˈfɛʃn/

 

noun

noun: profession; plural noun: professions

1. 1.

   a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

   "his chosen profession of teaching"

Are you even trying? Like seriously, if you've passed elementary school you should know this stuff.

 

2 hours ago, TheOtherJohn said:

No his occupation, his profession is "YouTuber".

I'm just curious, for the sake of posterity, where would someone get prolonged training and a formal qualification to become  "YouTuber" ? Because not only you choose to ignore facts that don't fit your narrative, but you also start making up stuff , just to fit your deluded scenario.

[DeerDK]

4 hours ago, TheOtherJohn said:

 

profession

/prəˈfɛʃn/

 

noun

noun: profession; plural noun: professions

1. 1.

   a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

   "his chosen profession of teaching"

Are you even trying? Like seriously, if you've passed elementary school you should know this stuff.

Imagine using the word your defining as a an example in its definition "definition of professional Someone who does it as their Profession"

Define: Rock

               *A rock like object

You've killed me, i literally cant reply to anyone else today. I'm done
 

 

 

 

Uhh, lets revisit this one. Profession "A paid occupation". Granted, there is a followup but I love how you choose to ignore even the first line in your own example.

[Leksi T]

I really find myself wondering what kind of communication LMG and GN have had in this last while.  Since GN's last hardware news, neither company seems to be talking publicly about each other.  Maybe this is an attempt to reduce friction and drama between the companies? 

 

Though I have expressed concerns about how aggressively GN handled this issue, I think my viewpoint on that part of things only is shared by a minority.  I do believe it's important, however, that the 2 companies can resume working towards their goals, and it's best for the tech space that not just them, but the community as a whole, can shift their attention back to tech, and the far larger companies that dominate the actual manufacturing and sales industries.

 

I don't mean that the community just lets themselves forget that LMG has made some really big mistakes here.  I think a heightened sense of skepticism over time is more than warranted.  I also think that GNs hyper-aggressive style of journalism also deserves quite a fair bit of skepticism.  But in my opinion, both companies play an important role in the space, and I think that once the two companies figure out where they stand with each other, letting the community know that stance would be very beneficial to everyone. (EDIT: Unless that stance is hostile, then they should keep it to themselves, and then since it's the internet, people will just assume it's hostile, and everyone suffers any way you go about it.)

 

I would have posted this in the more recent "Here's the plan" thread but even though both these threads have a fair amount of toxicity, this one seems to have some more rational discussion between the posts flinging mud and being pedantic.

[medic3256]

3 hours ago, Leksi T said:

I really find myself wondering what kind of communication LMG and GN have had in this last while.  Since GN's last hardware news, neither company seems to be talking publicly about each other.  Maybe this is an attempt to reduce friction and drama between the companies? 

 

Though I have expressed concerns about how aggressively GN handled this issue, I think my viewpoint on that part of things only is shared by a minority.  I do believe it's important, however, that the 2 companies can resume working towards their goals, and it's best for the tech space that not just them, but the community as a whole, can shift their attention back to tech, and the far larger companies that dominate the actual manufacturing and sales industries.

 

I don't mean that the community just lets themselves forget that LMG has made some really big mistakes here.  I think a heightened sense of skepticism over time is more than warranted.  I also think that GNs hyper-aggressive style of journalism also deserves quite a fair bit of skepticism.  But in my opinion, both companies play an important role in the space, and I think that once the two companies figure out where they stand with each other, letting the community know that stance would be very beneficial to everyone. (EDIT: Unless that stance is hostile, then they should keep it to themselves, and then since it's the internet, people will just assume it's hostile, and everyone suffers any way you go about it.)

 

I would have posted this in the more recent "Here's the plan" thread but even though both these threads have a fair amount of toxicity, this one seems to have some more rational discussion between the posts flinging mud and being pedantic.

I don't see a great way for them to go back to how it was. From here out it's going to be GN looking at LMG and Linus as a major competitor in a space where they view themselves as the top dog. LMG is now going to look at Steve and GN as a company that is out to "get" them and make them look bad. 

[Basti0815]

31 minutes ago, medic3256 said:

I don't see a great way for them to go back to how it was. From here out it's going to be GN looking at LMG and Linus as a major competitor in a space where they view themselves as the top dog. LMG is now going to look at Steve and GN as a company that is out to "get" them and make them look bad. 

If GN is not stupid, they will try to be "friends" with LTT again. There are enough viewers, there is no sense in wasting energy on a rivalry.

 

_{But the past shows... GN may not care for rational arguments, otherwise he would not have started so unprofessionally in the first place.}

[medic3256]

1 hour ago, Basti0815 said:

If GN is not stupid, they will try to be "friends" with LTT again. There are enough viewers, there is no sense in wasting energy on a rivalry.

 

_{But the past shows... GN may not care for rational arguments, otherwise he would not have started so unprofessionally in the first place.}

That's my whole viewpoint on it, there is enough room in this space for both of them. 

[Symion]

21 hours ago, NubCak said:

Where is billetlab's data sheet?